What's in a name?

[sf.]

3. A Language. I am not a linguist but even I can understand Macedonian does not have its roots in the far east Mongol Tatar regions. Understanding that Bulgarians are said to be of Tatar stock the comparisons and claims that Macedonian is a form of Bulgarian does not reconcile.

Bulgarian and Macedonian emerged from the old slavonic language spoken in the area. They should both be classified as distinct albeit related languages. Don't muddle their relation with the Bulgar tribes that arrived centuries ago.

Darko Pancev

Red Star Belgrade

He won the 'golden foot" or smt like that for the best scor.

He played for Inter later too

You forgot Najdoski, who also was a member of that Red Star team.

[Onur]

Sorry about the cut and past error

3. A Language. I am not a linguist but even I can understand Macedonian does not have its roots in the far east Mongol Tatar regions. Understanding that Bulgarians are said to be of Tatar stock the comparisons and claims that Macedonian is a form of Bulgarian does not reconcile. Linguists as well as geneticist and palaeontologists have much to say about the Macedonians but I believe will have far more to say in the future if allowed to.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=48042#post48042

As i posted a message here with the documents which shows an analyze of Bulgarian language. Borrowings and adoption from other cultures are quite traceable for any language with some regulations and concepts.


What linguists says about this issue??? You should be able to learn by reading few articles and books about Macedonian language and its roots with etymological examples.

P. S : I studied linguistic at university but i have no idea about Macedonian language

[Daniel the Great]

This is what I'm planning to do, friend

Thats good.



______________________
Macedonian and proud

[johnMKD]

To explain what’s in a name 3 points need to be remembered.

1. Ruth from the bible. Your people are my people. Your god is my god.
Undoubtable people moved in and out of the geographic region known as Macedonia. Some would have intermarried. Are their offspring Macedonian or do we start counting fractions and percentages. People who are x might perceive themselves as Macedonian and see their children not as 50 percent Macedonian and 50 percent x but simply Macedonian. This then introduces the notion of leaning. The children might grow up identifying more with x and choose to move away to x or live in pocket communities who are predominantly x. or the children might grow up identifying as Macedonians and living in a majority Macedonian community might marry a Macedonian. Who or what is a Macedonian or any other nationality for that matter has an element of leaning or ones perceived self identity even if the underlying dna might say otherwise.

I totally agree with you. That's why I'm saying that everybody is what he or she feels.

Regarding the naming dispute between the two countries, what are your views on the subject? Which solution would be most appropriate for you in order for all this to be over? Daskalot, you say you are a teacher. What are your views on that? Greeks say a name with geographical characterisation would be ok for them, I read recently. I'd really would like to know.

Have a nice day

[johnMKD]

Ohhh god help me... i think i got my own personal Mr."Spartan" no:2!!!



Anyway, JohnMKD, can you please read my earlier post about this issue;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=47836#post47836



Read all messages in that thread if you have some time. Then we can speak about population exchange issue, ok? You should read it because i am sure you will find some details in the documents which is unknown to you because of Greek propaganda of Turkish hate.

I went through your thread onur and I founded it really interesting indeed. Can we be however sure about its objectivity? Nevertheless, as I posted just before you replied me with this quote, I think that the distinction happened due to religion. And as far as I understood in your thread is more or less stated the same.

[Daskalot]

I totally agree with you. That's why I'm saying that everybody is what he or she feels.

Regarding the naming dispute between the two countries, what are your views on the subject? Which solution would be most appropriate for you in order for all this to be over? Daskalot, you say you are a teacher. What are your views on that? Greeks say a name with geographical characterisation would be ok for them, I read recently. I'd really would like to know.

Have a nice day

Here is my view, there is already enough difference in our respective choice of names. The Republic of Macedonia should be used universally. We are a sovereing nation whereas your THREE peripheries are not. They are also clearly differentiated with a GEOGRAPHICAL descriptor included in their respective names, that is; WEST Macedonia, CENTRAL Macedonia and EAST Macedonia and Thrace. The last name is even a COMPLEX name with the inclusion of Thrace in it. So John where is the problem? You have three administrative units within Greece with GEOGRAPHICAL names neither constituting a Republic of any kind.

[johnMKD]

johnMKD wrote:"Regarding the naming dispute between the two countries, what are your views on the subject? Which solution would be most appropriate for you in order for all this to be over? Daskalot, you say you are a teacher. What are your views on that? Greeks say a name with geographical characterisation would be ok for them, I read recently. I'd really would like to know."

Sorry for the mistake. This goes to all, not just to onur.

[johnMKD]

Here is my view, there is already enough difference in our respective choice of names. The Republic of Macedonia should be used universally. We are a sovereing nation whereas your THREE peripheries are not. They are also clearly differentiated with a GEOGRAPHICAL descriptor included in their respective names, that is; WEST Macedonia, CENTRAL Macedonia and EAST Macedonia and Thrace. The last name is even a COMPLEX name with the inclusion of Thrace in it. So John where is the problem? You have three administrative units within Greece with GEOGRAPHICAL names neither constituting a Republic of any kind.

I agree with you Daskalot. Of course the case in Greece is as you very well described. But, then there will be a Macedonia (as a country) and then three peripheries of Macedonia in another country. I told you before, I'm also feeling Macedonian (without decreasing you're feeling Macedonian, because it's correct). What it be right then for me and the other Macedonians in Greece? (And of course I'm not referring to those that came after 1912 and 1923).

[Daskalot]

I agree with you Daskalot. Of course the case in Greece is as you very well described. But, then there will be a Macedonia (as a country) and then three peripheries of Macedonia in another country. I told you before, I'm also feeling Macedonian (without decreasing you're feeling Macedonian, because it's correct). What it be right then for me and the other Macedonians in Greece? (And of course I'm not referring to those that came after 1912 and 1923).

John you sound so naive. You have already made that differentiation you are not simply a Macedonian, you are not an ethnic Macedonian or a national Macedonian. You are a geographical Macedonian whom are Greek, that is not on a national or ethnical level. In respect to those you are Greek 100%.

[johnMKD]

John you sound so naive. You have already made that differentiation you are not simply a Macedonian, you are not an ethnic Macedonian or a national Macedonian. You are a geographical Macedonian whom are Greek, that is not on a national or ethnical level. In respect to those you are Greek 100%.

I'm not so naive. It is Ok for you Daskalot not to consider me as a Macedonian, because I'm only 50% by origin, but how about the others currently living in Greece? Almost 30-40% in Voden (Edessa) are pure Macedonians and 70-80% in Lerin (Florina). If I mention the surrounding villages, the percentage in some cases reaches 100%. The same goes also for partially regions of Solun (Thessaloniki), in Kostur (Kastoria) and (Ser) Serres. How about these people? Will they not be offended?? Please reply to this question.

And of course I'm not talking about any Athenian, who hardly know the existence of anything outside their province.

[Daskalot]

I'm not so naive. It is Ok for you Daskalot not to consider me as a Macedonian, because I'm only 50% by origin, but how about the others currently living in Greece? Almost 30-40% in Voden (Edessa) are pure Macedonians and 70-80% in Lerin (Florina). If I mention the surrounding villages, the percentage in some cases reaches 100%. The same goes also for partially regions of Solun (Thessaloniki), in Kostur (Kastoria) and (Ser) Serres. How about these people? Will they not be offended?? Please reply to this question.

And of course I'm not talking about any Athenian, who hardly know the existence of anything outside their province.

If they share my ethnicity then they are Ethnic Macedonians living inside Greece, they are not national Macedonians because they are Greeks by nationality. What is the big problem for you? Why make the issue at hand so complex when it is not.

[johnMKD]

If they share my ethnicity then they are Ethnic Macedonians living inside Greece, they are not national Macedonians because they are Greeks by nationality. What is the big problem for you? Why make the issue at hand so complex when it is not.

Thank you for your answer. I'm not the one rendering the issue complex however. I've did some research over the issue before. I've read the Greek and the Bulgarian views (Bulgarian: basically from a blog called something like bulgarmak, if I'm not mistaken) on the subject. That's why I'm here. I want to learn how you see the issue and how you back it up and exchange views and ways of thinking. I'm not a fascist or fanatic whatsoever, and I could change my mind if I could see the truth lies somewhere else than I know. Seeing your forum (Macedonian Truth) was really promising for me with regard to that. And I hope it will be, if you stop considering me your enemy or something like that. I'm not your enemy. If I were, I would not be here.

[Daskalot]

Thank you for your answer. I'm not the one rendering the issue complex however. I've did some research over the issue before. I've read the Greek and the Bulgarian views (Bulgarian: basically from a blog called something like bulgarmak, if I'm not mistaken) on the subject. That's why I'm here. I want to learn how you see the issue and how you back it up and exchange views and ways of thinking. I'm not a fascist or fanatic whatsoever, and I could change my mind if I could see the truth lies somewhere else than I know. Seeing your forum (Macedonian Truth) was really promising for me with regard to that. And I hope it will be, if you stop considering me your enemy or something like that. I'm not your enemy. If I were, I would not be here.

We are here for a constructive dialogue, but we do not tolerate any abuse of our Macedonian ethos or nation. Good that you have chosen our forum in regards to the topic at hand. If you have an open mind towards us Macedonians you will soon notice that something is very wrong in Greece in regards to our existance within the Greek state.

[johnMKD]

We are here for a constructive dialogue, but we do not tolerate any abuse of our Macedonian ethos or nation. Good that you have chosen our forum in regards to the topic at hand. If you have an open mind towards us Macedonians you will soon notice that something is very wrong in Greece in regards to our existance within the Greek state.

If I was not open-minded, I would not be here. As I said before, I'm a scientist and I always want to see all aspects of a problem before jumping to conclusions. Could you please suggest me topics of this forum that could be enlightening for me?

PS-As I can see, you're an administrator here. I will never say deliberately anything offensive to somebody. If I do, please explain me what it was, and I will be happy to take it back.

[Risto the Great]

Hey everybody! First of all, I'm new here and I'd like to say that I hope this forum would be at last a ground of civilised discussion and goodwill between the two sides. So, help me understand your views while understanding also mine.

I currently live in Italy, but I'm 100% Greek, of which 50% Macedonian, 25% Cappadocian and 25% Ionian (Asia Minor).

I just want to ask "What's in a name?" to all of you.
a) The fact that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is a part of the wider region of Macedonia is undoubted.
b) The fact that the region has had in the past many influences from Turks, Greeks, Slavs and Bulgarians is also undoubted.
c) The fact that this (referring to b) has generated a multi-cultural entity in the region (of which I also am a part by 50%) is also undoubted.
d) The fact that there is also a language developed over the years in the region is finally also undoubted. Personally, I was also raised speaking some of this language (which is very close to the languages spoken today in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and in Bulgaria).

History is something we all know (no matter local propagandas by our own countries). Everyone knows that we cannot be direct descendants from any ancient Greek/Macedonian/Roman etc tribe. This is because over the centuries so many mixtures have occurred in our region, that render this impossible. The reason I'm defining myself as Greek is because my parents (and before them my grandparents) were also defining themselves as Greeks. The same goes for everyone in the region. Everyone is indeed what he or she feels that he or she is.

My question to you concerns the name itself. Why insisting on a name which is Greek by default? Does this imply that you are Greeks too?

I really hope this will open a descent discussion without any bad-names called from either side. My presence here is only to learn and not to start any fight with you guys.

You have made the erroneous assumption that the name "Macedonian" is "Greek by default". Prove that point and I will help you further.