What's in a name?

[Onur]

Agreed. However, I don't think Pontic and Smyrna Greek are so much related, as you say here. The first is more as you said Byzantine/medieval Greek (maybe with the Armenian influences) while the second is clearly more close to Istanbul Greek (with Turkish influences). I've heard both of them and they are quite different from each other.

Yes they were quite different too but i wrote them together because Pontic and Smyrna people was able to speak some form of Greek unlike Cappadocians and Karamanlides who cant even count to 10 in Greek.

Also, i have to remind you that the heavy influence of Turkish in Smyrna and Istanbul Greek was the result of natural process and development of their language, never was a result of assimilation. If Ottoman Empire would have an intention to assimilate them, they could easily do that for Cappadocians-Karamanlides who only speak Turkish but instead, Ottoman Sultan ordered Greek and Armenian patriarch to press Turkish bibles for them in Istanbul so they can prey and perform their religion of Christianity with ease. We still got some copies of these Turkish bibles in our museums.

Some stupid Neo-Ottoman people here got theories like if Ottoman Empire could have assimilated all Balkans and middle-east like western countries did to their colonies, then the Empire could survive today. They say that the western world abused and exploited this multi-cultural freedom inside the Empire and organized revolts.

Maybe this would be true but then I would have no right to criticize imperialist actions of the western world today cuz we would be same with them. Also, maybe we wouldn't have the Republic today. I prefer not to, like the big majority of people here.

[johnMKD]

Yes they were quite different too but i wrote them together because Pontic and Smyrna people was able to speak some form of Greek unlike Cappadocians and Karamanlides who cant even count to 10 in Greek.

Also, i have to remind you that the heavy influence of Turkish in Smyrna and Istanbul Greek was the result of natural process and development of their language, never was a result of assimilation. If Ottoman Empire would have an intention to assimilate them, they could easily do that for Cappadocians-Karamanlides who only speak Turkish but instead, Ottoman Sultan ordered Greek and Armenian patriarch to press Turkish bibles for them in Istanbul so they can prey and perform their religion of Christianity with ease. We still got some copies of these Turkish bibles in our museums.

Very well stated comment, Onur. It's obvious that there was this freedom you say within the Empire, otherwise nothing would have been left of the other cultures, after so many centuries. However, it's also good that Turks also took elements from other cultures the same way they gave to them.
Do you have anything from these Bibles-in-Turkish electronically?

[Onur]

Do you have anything from these Bibles-in-Turkish electronically?

I couldn't find the Karamanlis bibles on the internet but i know a Greek scholar/author who focused on Karamanlis people. This is her website;

http://evangeliabalta.com/index.php

She wrote several books about Karamanlis people. So, check books section at her website.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by osiris View Post
if greeces first prime minister from hydra koundouriotis could not speak greek why would there be any native greek speakers in macedonia.
Could you please tell me where have you found that he could not speak Greek?
Cheers

johhny most of the christians living in greece didnt speak greek in 1824 not just koundouriotis i am merely using him to polint out how faake the so called ellenismo of modern greece was and is.

[johnMKD]

I couldn't find the Karamanlis bibles on the internet but i know a Greek scholar/author who focused on Karamanlis people. This is her website;

http://evangeliabalta.com/index.php

She wrote several books about Karamanlis people. So, check books section at her website.

Cheers, Onur. I'll have a look.
I thought you might already have something about it; I didn't mean for you to search. Thanks

[johnMKD]

johhny most of the christians living in greece didnt speak greek in 1824 not just koundouriotis i am merely using him to polint out how faake the so called ellenismo of modern greece was and is.

Yeap, I already read some stuff about this, osiris. Thanks for your reply.

[makedonin]

Originally Posted by Onur View Post
I couldn't find the Karamanlis bibles on the internet but i know a Greek scholar/author who focused on Karamanlis people. This is her website;

http://evangeliabalta.com/index.php

She wrote several books about Karamanlis people. So, check books section at her website

Here something more on Karamanli:

Oldest Karamanli misses home
Monday, August 3, 2009
YORGO KIRBAKİ
ATHENS - Hürriyet
The last surviving Karamanli says he misses his friends and his village back in Kayseri, and that he is proud to share his hometown with the Turkish president.
Oldest Karamanli misses home

The last surviving Karamanli, or Karamanlides in Greek, 98-year-old Stavros Farasopulos, says he misses his friends and his village back in Kayseri, and that he is proud to share his hometown with Turkish President Abdullah Gül.

Farasopulos was born in the village of Ağırnas in the eastern province of Kayseri in 1911 as a member of the local Karamanli community. Karamanli was a Greek Orthodox Christian community whose first language was Turkish written in the Greek alphabet and lived mainly in Kayseri’s Cappadocia region. Their name drives from the Karamanoğulları state that was based there before the growing Ottoman Empire annexed it in the mid-15th century.

The Karamanli community had to leave Turkey during the compulsory population exchange between Greece and Turkey in 1923 when transfer was solely based on religion, even though the Karamanlis’ first language was Turkish and most didn’t speak a word of Greek.

Farasopulos said he has missed his Turkish friends and his hometown since leaving it in 1924. He currently lives in Western Thrace, where his home is full of photos of Kayseri and one featuring President Abdullah Gül.

Among the mementos he keeps are letters dating back to when his family lived in Kayseri, letters in Turkish but written in the Greek alphabet.

Farasopulos’s eldest son, Nikos, speaks fluent Turkish. “My father brought me up as a proper Karamanli,” said Nikos.

When asked about his life in Ağırnas before 1922, Stavros Farasopulos said: “My best friends were Enver and Niyazi. Turkish was my mother tongue.”

Farasopulos then started talking about the period after World War I when Greece invaded Turkey.

“At that time, Greeks and Turks killed each other, but in my hometown nothing happened. That was because there was nothing that separated Turks from Greeks. During Turkey’s Independence War [1919-1922] I seldom saw a Turkish soldier in my village,” he said.

“I know my Kayseri and the Karamanlis. Turks, Greeks and Armenians are the same.”

Farasopulos said when he and his family first arrived in Greece he was discriminated against because the only language he could speak was Turkish.

Years later, in the 1960s, a friend from back in his village, Turan, came to visit Farasopulos in Greece. The first time Farasopulos went to his village after 1924 was in 1970. “When I went there in 1970, I was welcomed with open arms. I stayed there for two months. I didn’t want to leave. They later rebuilt the Ayi Anargri Church in the village. I thanked the mayor,” he said.

The last time he visited Ağırnas was in 2000. “I have grown old. I really want to visit my hometown but how can I?” he asked, citing his age.

Taken from: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.p...ome-2009-08-03

and some more here, earlier posted by TM: http://agema-makedonin.blogspot.com/...acedonian.html

[Onur]

I think i just found a video by coincidence on youtube which confirms the story of JohnMKD;


According to description, this is a tv program in Greece which describes the culture of people in Aegean Macedonia. They show some old folks in a city named Kilkis in Greece. They sing a couple of Turkish songs with Turkish lyrics;

This is just a short clip, a priest singing in Turkish

YouTube - Î*ολÏ�πετÏ�ο Κιλκίς06







Then here, same people starts to speak in their native languages. I understood half of it because it was partly Turkish. I think they are trying to say that they are speaking in half Turkish, half Slavic language!!?

This is a short clip of this part, uploaded by some Hellenism defender;

YouTube - Slavophone Greeks speak about themselves


At the start of the video when there is no English subtitles, one of them asks what kind of language they speak. Then old lady says that its half Turkish and half local language(says "yerel dil" in Turkish. Maybe afraid to name it as Macedonian?? dunno). She also says that she uses Turkish numerical system.

Is this the laguage you mentioned JohnMKD???



I watched the other parts on youtube and it looks like the anchor of the program keep asking them how much they feel themselves as a part of Hellas




These old people shown here are the children of these kids here;




So, this shows that the Anatolian people who settled in Aegean Macedonia married with the local Macedonian people there and they are living together. It looks like they can still speak some of their native languages. It seems that they can admit the Turkish connection but afraid to call Macedonian heritage because the old lady there, calls it "yerel dil" in Turkish(means "local language" in English).

[Soldier of Macedon]

With regard to the clips, check the below post I have made on another thread:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=706&highlight=gevgelija&page=2

The lady in black is doing most of the talking, she said that they were transferred there (Greek-occupied Macedonia) and lived among the locals (Macedonians), “what do you want after so many years, I was born here, of course we learned the language, Shto Pravish, Odam” (Macedonian words).

She says that all the people there get along fine, use similar words (?), the only thing different is that they count in Turkish. She can only count to six in Macedonian, "chetiri, pet, shest".

The moron with the grey hair and glasses asks if they understand Bulgarian? The people around the table say they understand it but not all of it.

One of the ladies says Serbian, Yugoslavian…….I think some may have said they understand, but I hear "no, no we don’t understand it" towards the end.

He asks something like is the language similar to Greek? They respond a resounding no.

At one point the lady in black doing most of the talking says something about the “dialect of Gevgelija”, which of course is Macedonian and is spoken in the Republic of Macedonia, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gevgelija

Right at the end that idiot says something like “how do you feel”, staring like some psycho at the people around the table in anticipation of a response. There was nothing but silence and stares of confusion for seconds. Finally somebody asks something like “what do you mean”, after which another says “our homeland in Greece so we are Greek”, quite unconvincingly.

Then this idiot start saying something like “there is only one Greece, bla, bla, bla” as if he is some preacher and calls over a priest, I guess he must have thought he would need spiritual back-up to convince those people that they were pure blooded Greeks..........

[Onur]

Farasopulos was born in the village of Ağırnas in the eastern province of Kayseri in 1911 as a member of the local Karamanli community. Karamanli was a Greek Orthodox Christian community whose first language was Turkish written in the Greek alphabet and lived mainly in Kayseri’s Cappadocia region. Their name drives from the Karamanoğulları state that was based there before the growing Ottoman Empire annexed it in the mid-15th century.

I gotta say that they started using Greek alphabet around 1870s. There was British and German missionaries trying to convert them as Greeks and they teach them to write in Greek alphabet. Before that, they were using Persian script like other Turks. So, assimilation even started at the last years of Ottoman Empire.

Years later, in the 1960s, a friend from back in his village, Turan, came to visit Farasopulos in Greece. The first time Farasopulos went to his village after 1924 was in 1970. “When I went there in 1970, I was welcomed with open arms. I stayed there for two months. I didn’t want to leave. They later rebuilt the Ayi Anargri Church in the village. I thanked the mayor,” he said.

On Turkish tv channels, sometimes they interview Karamanlis people who comes to Turkey to visit their former villages and their children still able to speak Turkish!!! They say that their parents teach Turkish to them. Its always dramatic scenes, they try to find the children of their father`s friends and crying when they see their old houses and churches.

[johnMKD]

I think i just found a video by coincidence on youtube which confirms the story of JohnMKD;


According to description, this is a tv program in Greece which describes the culture of people in Aegean Macedonia. They show some old folks in a city named Kilkis in Greece. They sing a couple of Turkish songs with Turkish lyrics;

This is just a short clip, a priest singing in Turkish

YouTube - Î*ολÏ�πετÏ�ο Κιλκίς06







Then here, same people starts to speak in their native languages. I understood half of it because it was partly Turkish. I think they are trying to say that they are speaking in half Turkish, half Slavic language!!?

This is a short clip of this part, uploaded by some Hellenism defender;

YouTube - Slavophone Greeks speak about themselves


At the start of the video when there is no English subtitles, one of them asks what kind of language they speak. Then old lady says that its half Turkish and half local language(says "yerel dil" in Turkish. Maybe afraid to name it as Macedonian?? dunno). She also says that she uses Turkish numerical system.

Is this the laguage you mentioned JohnMKD???



I watched the other parts on youtube and it looks like the anchor of the program keep asking them how much they feel themselves as a part of Hellas




These old people shown here are the children of these kids here;




So, this shows that the Anatolian people who settled in Aegean Macedonia married with the local Macedonian people there and they are living together. It looks like they can still speak some of their native languages. It seems that they can admit the Turkish connection but afraid to call Macedonian heritage because the old lady there, calls it "yerel dil" in Turkish(means "local language" in Turkish). Then afterward, they call it like Bulgarian or Slavic language.

With regard to the clips, check the below post I have made on another thread:

Many thanks for this info to both of you guys. Really enlightening.
I very carefully listened to what the people were saying in Greek. The woman seems to be defining herself as something like Thrakoturk, probably from the region of within Bulgaria (Thrace), with which Greece had another exchange of populations. She says that the language spoken there was very similar to "endopika", but the counting of numbers was in Turkish. I can confirm the existence of these people, as I have met quite a few. In the beginning, when I was listening to them, I thought..OK sounds like Macedonian, but it's not. When I asked them, they gave me the same answer as the lady in the video.
If somebody has more information about these people, please post.

Ah, and could somebody tell me how I can post a photo which is saved in my pc and it's not online? Cheers

[Soldier of Macedon]

In the beginning, when I was listening to them, I thought..OK sounds like Macedonian, but it's not. When I asked them, they gave me the same answer as the lady in the video.

If it isn't Macedonian, what is it, because it certainly has Macedonian words?

Ah, and could somebody tell me how I can post a photo which is saved in my pc and it's not online? Cheers

Try imageshack.us

[johnMKD]

If it isn't Macedonian, what is it, because it certainly has Macedonian words?

That's a very good question. When I asked these people to define themselves, some of them would say to me "endopi", others would say "pomaks" (?), others would say "Slavoturks" and finally some of them would say "Thrakiotes" (=from Thrace). For me it doesn't make much sense.

Thanks, BTW, SoM for the advice regarding the photo.

[Onur]

That's a very good question. When I asked these people to define themselves, some of them would say to me "endopi", others would say "pomaks" (?), others would say "Slavoturks" and finally some of them would say "Thrakiotes" (=from Thrace). For me it doesn't make much sense.

This is not even a debatable question.

These people are Anatolian immigrants and local Macedonians. Most definitely the Macedonians was the majority there. Since, Anatolian immigrants(I consider them as Turkish people myself) started to live there, so they obviously learned their language(Macedonian) while still conserving Turkish in some elements. Probably local Macedonians learned some Turkish in time too.

P. S : Pomaks are muslim people who ethnically believed to be a mix of Bulgarian and Turk. Yes, they live in Aegean Macedonia too but they are only a small minority.

SlavoTurk?? I`ve never heard this term b4. Maybe Pomaks called like that by Greeks???

[johnMKD]

This is not even a debatable question.

These people are Anatolian immigrants and local Macedonians. Most definitely the Macedonians was the majority there. Since, Anatolian immigrants(I consider them as Turkish people myself) started to live there, so they obviously learned their language(Macedonian) while still conserving Turkish in some elements. Probably local Macedonians learned some Turkish in time too.

P. S : Pomaks are muslim people who ethnically believed to be a mix of Bulgarian and Turk. Yes, they live in Aegean Macedonia too but they are only a small minority.

SlavoTurk?? I`ve never heard this term b4. Maybe Pomaks called like that by Greeks???

I'm sure the guys of the video are not Anatolian, Onur. They say so themselves. They are from the part of Bulgaria where Pomaks live. Pomaks are generally muslims but I have also met some Christians, as the ones I mentioned before.

Slavoturk was a term used by them to define themselves. I have never heard this by anyone else in Greece.