The Greek Method of Assimilating and Oppressing the Macedonians!

[Soldier of Macedon]

No idea SoM.

No problems mate.

Can either of your tell me what language and writing is officially used in the mosques of western Thrace? Is it Greek or Turkish?

Onur, do you have an answer for this? Also, can you tell us about any restrictions on the Greek community in Turkey? Do they have stores, institutions, etc where they are allowed to use their language and writing in an official capacity? I would assume that in Istanbul at least the Greeks can use their own language, as evidenced by the existing Patriarchate of Constantinople. Any information would be great.

[Onur]

Can either of your tell me what language and writing is officially used in the mosques of western Thrace? Is it Greek or Turkish?

Ofc its Turkish since 14th century. Only exception was between 1924 to 1950 when Greek supreme court totally forbid speaking-writing Turkish to secure the assimilation process of Anatolian immigrants. Then Turkish language ban lifted shortly b4 Greece entered NATO at ~1950s, but at 1982, Greek supreme court set a new restriction and it wasn't allowed to use the words "Turk, Turkish" and several people including parliamentarians got jailed because of that. Currently, Its not allowed for Turkish minority to elect their own clerics and school teachers or use any printed Turkish material which came from outside Greece. For example, currently its even not allowed to bring Turkish newspaper to Greece from the border at Thrace.

Onur, do you have an answer for this? Also, can you tell us about any restrictions on the Greek community in Turkey? Do they have stores, institutions, etc where they are allowed to use their language and writing in an official capacity? I would assume that in Istanbul at least the Greeks can use their own language, as evidenced by the existing Patriarchate of Constantinople. Any information would be great.

Ofc they can use Greek language at free will. They also have institutions, associations and schools with historical buildings protected and preserved by Turkish cultural authorities. Also most of them are very rich people by heredity since Greeks was the representatives of Christianity b4 Republic and their ancestors owned lots of valuable properties in Istanbul. For example in Istanbul, a villa or relatively small estate close to the bosphorus shore can have a value around 10-15 million USA dollars.

I can assure you SOM, if the situation wouldn't be like that, you would surely hear the screams of Greece authorities at EU about Greek minority in Turkey, right? . Also most of Greeks in Turkey sold their properties and migrated to USA by their free will at 1960s. There are only ~8000 Greeks left in Turkey atm. Most of these Greeks didn't cooperate with the invaders from Greece at 1919 because they were already rich and part of the Ottoman government. They are not allergic to the Turkish people unlike the ones in Greece and we respect them as much as they respect us. Also why we should be scared of them like Greeks does vs Turks in Greece? We have absolutely no reason to restrict their lives in any way. Our ancestors didn't do that and allowed them to live with us for 600 years, even sharing the government with them because they were part of the "Ottoman Millet/citizens". Then why we would do that now? Greeks was always the most privileged people among all Christians throughout history in Turkey and we created a culture together with them, along with other people at the times of the Empire.

The only problem these days are;
The patriarch can only educate Turkey citizens as clerics and they can elect their own priests for the churches but they demand from us to allow them to bring Greek citizen clerics from Greece and appoint them in churches in Turkey but Turkey doesn't allow this `till Greece recognizes its minorities and allow them to select their own clerics.


P. S : One more thing. Do not confuse the Greeks from Istanbul with the so called "Greek" mobs in Greece. Since you already know that these mobs learned art, music, cuisine, everything from Anatolian people which consisted %45 of Greece`s population when they migrated there at 1924. Atm, Greece`s cuisine, music, sirtaki, zeybek, mousakka, baklavas, mezes, Raki/Uzo etc. everything is quite same as in Turkey because these Anatolian immigrants teach a culture to the mobs there and how to live like a human. Thats why there are 1000s of Turkish words in Greek atm, as well as Greek words in Turkish.

On the other hand, Greeks of Istanbul was highly educated, rich, always in collaboration with Turks since Byzantine times of Istanbul(Even earlier times, if you analyze historical events like intermarriage of Byzantine emperors with Turks as early as 8th century[1]). They were also speaking ancient form of Greek mixed with Turkish, which is non-intelligible by the so called "Greek" mob of Greece. Most of them recently learned "modern Greek" if they feel a necessity of it.

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzitzak

[Spartan]

There are only ~8000 Greeks left in Turkey atm.

Closer to 2000 but whatever.
And today, they are all exclusively in Instanbul.
Why dont you tell SoM how many Greeks were in Turkey in 1922 (post exchange)?
Then explain why there is such a disparity between the pop then and now?
Let me guess, "they all moved away of their own free will"

The muslim minoritys pop in Greece has remained the same for over 50 years.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Only exception was between 1924 to 1950 when Greek supreme court totally forbid speaking-writing Turkish to secure the assimilation process of Anatolian immigrants.

That is very interesting, I was not aware of that, thanks. Have you seen the Greek Census of 1928? If not, let me know, we have it in our MTO files.

Currently, Its not allowed for Turkish minority to elect their own clerics and school teachers or use any printed Turkish material which came from outside Greece.

That's a shame, and certainly not right. Turkey does not dictate the same terms to their Greek minority, they don't elect their clerics and teachers, and they don't prevent them from obtaining materal printed in Greece, correct?

The patriarch can only educate Turkey citizens as clerics and they can elect their own priests for the churches but they demand from us to allow them to bring Greek citizen clerics from Greece and appoint them in churches in Turkey but Turkey doesn't allow this `till Greece recognizes its minorities and allow them to select their own clerics.

That's fair enough.

Most of these Greeks didn't cooperate with the invaders from Greece at 1919 because they were already rich and part of the Ottoman government.

That is something else I wasn't aware of, is there any documentation or evidence to corrborate? Onur, sometimes in history it has proven to be irrelevant if they did or didn't help their kinsmen. Please read the below paragraph from an article I had written earlier:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...read.php?t=170

That which began as an expression of revolt against the tyrannic Ottoman overlords however, quickly turned into an act of brutal extermination against Muslim civilians. George Finlay would later write that the “Greeks violated every principle of private morality and national honour…………slaughter of women, and children was therefore declared to be a necessary measure of wise policy, and popular songs spoke of it……”. Popular song spoke of it - A disgrace now covered up in false romanticism and chants of "liberty"! The Ottomans for their part, retaliated with extreme measures of their own, hanging the Greek-speaking Patriarch Gregory of Constantinople in a most cruel and ruthless way, despite his denouncement of the uprising. It has been said that this event, probably more than any other in the initial stages, drew large sympathies from Western Europe for the cause of the Christians rebelling in the Ottoman Empire.

It was, according to most if not all reports, a disgusting war.

Greeks was always the most privileged people among all Christians throughout history in Turkey........

I have no doubt that Greek-speaking people were, they were often shown favour by the Turks. The Ottomans had far more problems from the Macedonians and the surrounding Slavic groups for centuries due to their collaboration with Russia and Austria.

[Spartan]

That's a shame, and certainly not right. Turkey does not dictate the same terms to their Greek minority, they don't elect their clerics and teachers,

This issue of the muftis is not as straightforward as our turkish friend would like to make it seem. You see, these muftis handle matters of a judicial nature in the muslim communities. Namely family matters and inheritance issues. How can 'inheritance law' be considered to fall under the category of 'religion' (which is protected under the treaty)?

That is the problem the Greek gov has with allowing them to elect/appoint their own muftis, and I agree with them. In my opinion, a sovereign state should/and does have the right to administer its law as it sees fit(within reason of course).
If these muftis handled issues of a strictly religious nature, greece is bound by the treaty of Lusanne to allow the muslim minority to appoint them as they see fit. Once their 'jobs' enter the 'legal world', then the gov has a right(imo) to step in.

Also, in regards to the term 'muslim minority', considering that this minority is only 50-60% turk (the rest consisting of Pomak, and muslim Roma), it is quite appropriate imo. Regardless though, the 'terminology' agreed upon is 'muslim minority', any other name would be breaking a pre-existing agreement. I know, and respect your feelings in regards to this SoM, but at the end of the day....its the official agreement between greece and turkey.

As for the greeks in Turkey, i believe they are referred to as 'Rumlar" which I believe translates to Roman. They were around 200 000 in 1923, today they are 2000. One of the main reasions for this drastic decrease in population was the 1932 parliamentary law which barred Greek citizens in Turkey from a series of 30 trades and professions.... from tailor and carpenter to medicine, law, and real estate. Another law passed in the 40s which contributed to the dwindling of the greek populace of turkey, was a heavy capital gains tax imposed on only non muslim people of wealth....it heavily lessened the economoic potential of the greek community.

The institution of the violent 'Instanbul pogrom(riots/organized violence against a specific ethnic or religious group)' is another occurence that Mail2onur for some reason or other does not bring up. This was put into place sometime in the 50s (backed by lies and overexagerations of events that took place in Thessaloniki) and vastly increased the rate of emmigration of the greeks in Turkey. All these events contributed to reducing the 200,000-strong Greek minority in 1924 to just over 5,000 in 2005.

In contrast, the muslim community in Greece has stayed the same/slightly grown.

So, in conclusion, I would just like to say that Mail2onurs attempt to paint the greeks as the bad guy in regards to Greek-turkish' relations is pretty much a joke, or as we say in greek - φαρσοκωμωδία (a farsical comedy).
Im not saying Greece is a saint, or the 'model' neighbour in regards to turkey, and the treatment of the turk minority, but Mail2onurs 'victim violin act' holds about as much water as Bogov or Iliovs theories do.

[Onur]

Turkey does not dictate the same terms to their Greek minority, they don't elect their clerics and teachers, and they don't prevent them from obtaining materal printed in Greece, correct?

Definitely not SOM. Turkey never dictates same terms to Greek minority here. They can also use any material from Greece but they never needed to because the head patriarch is already in Istanbul and their knowledge and capability was much more then peasants of Greece. They had nothing to learn from them, instead, Greeks of Greece learned from Patriarchy here in Istanbul.

That is something else I wasn't aware of, is there any documentation or evidence to corrborate? Onur, sometimes in history it has proven to be irrelevant if they did or didn't help their kinsmen.

OK. Since i am going to enter to the issues of "Greek propaganda", so i will only speak with the proof of documents otherwise some people can response like "Thats bullshit and lies". I wont use Turkish ones, I will even use early Greek sources(from 1910 to 1930) which mostly tells the truth because later Greek sources turned into lie and false propaganda.




You all know that Greece was a Kingdom ruled by Bavarian/German king and monarchy till WW-1 days, 1919. At WW-1, Bavarian king of Greece remain neutral till the end of war, even secretly supporting German/Turkish coalition since he was German too but Alliance forces of England was quite unhappy for that since the beginning the war. So they secretly supported pro-British and ultra-nationalist Venizelos who were in collaboration with British in the name of Hellenism and Megali Idea.









At 1919, England focused on the security of recently occupied oil rich lands like current northern Iraq and They needed an extra force who can pressure Turkey. Greece and Venizelos was the best for that with their "Megali Idea". So they over-throne the Bavarian King and supported coup d'etat of Venizelos.

On the other hand, Constantine favored the Central Powers and wanted Greece to remain neutral.[64] He was influenced both by his belief in the military superiority of Germany and also by his German wife, Queen Sophia, and his pro-German court. He therefore strove to secure a neutrality which would be favorable to Germany and Austria.[65]

In 1915, Winston Churchill(then First Lord of the Admiralty) suggested to Greece to take action in Dardanelles on behalf of the allies.[66] Venizelos saw this as an opportunity to bring the country on the side of the Entente in the conflict. However the King disagreed and Venizelos submitted his resignation on 21 February 1915.[65] Venizelos' party won the elections and formed a new government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleftherios_Venizelos





At the same time, Greeks of Istanbul always favored and supported former Bavarian King since they were already part of the Turkish council in Istanbul by being parliamentarians. Christian and Jew Ottoman Empire citizens consisted %35 of the council members, protected by the laws.









After the war ended, England occupied Istanbul and abolished Turkish army. Then British supported Venizelos became new leader of Greece at March 1919 and after 2 weeks of his presidency, he announced that Greece will join England and will occupy Izmir in the name of "Megali Idea". Then Greece occupied Izmir with the support of England while Turkey had no army and atrocities of Turkish people has begun.

While on the other hand British forces in Istanbul persuaded the patriarch of Istanbul to support Greek invaders but this wasn't that effective on the Greek minority who some of them were the parliamentarians of Turkish council. Even some of them commented on newspapers like "We don't support the occupation of Venizelos`s forces. We also condemn the atrocities done by irregular and disorganized British supported soldiers from Greece."

After the treason of Greek patriarch, Turkish Christians of Karaman(Karamanlides) and Cappadocia region created their own "Turkish Orthodox Patriarchate" and announced that Greek patriarch is not their religious leader and a puppet of England and Venizelos anymore. They also called all Christians of Turkey(including Greeks) to not listen him and join Ataturk`s movement against Allied forces of England.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocephalous_Turkish_Orthodox_Patriarchate




After Greece`s shameful events in Anatolia, Venizelos government demanded population exchange at the peace conference because even after the migration of ~3 million Muslims from Greece to Turkey after 1830, Greece`s population at 1920 was only around 2.2 million. 500.000 of them was muslim people(mostly Turkish but some Macedonians and Albanians) and only 1.5 million of them was Christians(including Albanians, Macedonians, Gypsies, Bulgars etc).

So, this demographics of Greece didn't suit to the Hellenistic ideas of Venizelos, therefore he insisted for population exchange. On the other hand, 1 million Christian of Turkey was only %5 of Turkey`s population and they were our citizens for 500 years and even some of them was our brothers and Ataturk`s supporters like "Karamanlides" Turks.









Also, Venizelos`s plan included the settlement of newcomers to the Aegean Macedonia to depopulate slavic speakers of Greece;















Now, you might ask like "Why the hell they didn't accept the exclusion of Turkish Karamanlides who supported Ataturk`s movement".

Answer is simple;
After British occupation ended, The head of the patriarch of Istanbul who supported Greece`s invasion, stand a trial with the accusation of high treason vs Turkey. He admit that he was used and abused by British but he condemned to death(This was the first ever death penalty to a Greek cleric since 1453, conquest of Istanbul). Also Turkish Christians already formed their own patriarch a year b4 that. Venizelos thought that if Karamanlides people excluded from population exchange, their recently formed patriarch(already supported by Ataturk) could gain higher importance than the Greek patriarch of Istanbul because all Greeks would migrate to Greece. This would cause the closure of it if Karamanlides stays in Turkey, their Patriarchy could also have bigger community.

So with the exception of 120 leading members of Karamanlides who actively fought against Greece with Ataturk(Because they were probably be tortured and killed in Greece), rest of them gone to Greece(Minimum 60.000 people, up to 250.000 for some sources)

Ataturk even gone to their main Church at Cappadocia to apologize and told them that they had no other choice to accept the will of Venizelos and British on that. There are newspaper reports from 1924, which says, while Karamanlides goes to Greece, they even cried and begged to the people like "We are not Greeks, we are your brothers, please do not send us".










Its a tragic story because they were also name called and humiliated as "Tourkosporo" for 30 years and Greece also forbid them to speak Turkish.

As "Spartan" said when i linked the videos of Anatolian Christians in Greece, they are still strangers to the residential people of Greece after 90 years of immigration;

Where I am from we didnt recieve any significant amount of refugees from asia minor, if any, and the pre existing community ceased to exist 200 years ago.
These people are as foreign to me as the chinese.

Bibliography:
"Eleftherios Venizelos: the trials of statesmanship" by Paschalis Kitromilides

"Ionian vision: Greece in Asia Minor, 1919-1922" by Michael Llewellyn Smith

"Islam and the West" by Bernard Lewis


Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venizelos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocephalous_Turkish_Orthodox_Patriarchate

[Spartan]

Good post, that is pretty much the history I have come to learn about those events to a tee.

As "Spartan" said

But please, dont write my name in quotes again.
I always write your name out properly.

[Onur]

I hope that with my response above, you can understand how today`s Greece created with the intentions of England and how their ultra-nationalist dictator "Venizelos" caused the pain of millions of people in Turkey by invading here and then the suffering of millions more by demanding population exchange.

Even the high-commissioner of Greece`s army in Izmir who appointed by Venizelos later turned out to be a British spy. When British and Greek army defeated by Ataturk`s forces, he also ordered to destroy whole city of Izmir to not leave it to the Turks and he was the main suspects for great fire of Izmir at 1922 which caused whole city to burn one day b4 Turkish army arrives;

Aristidis Stergiadis abandoned Smyrna on 25 September 1922 on an English ship, and was transported in Britain. Later the same year he moved to Nice,[citation needed] where he lived until the end of his life, on July 1949, under British protection, wide spreading rumors that he had been an Secret Intelligence Service spy. His family's property probably allowed him to live in wealth until the beginning of the Second World War, when most of the companies related to him were destroyed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristidis_Stergiadis



All this, in the name of Megali Idea, Hellenism and attempt to create a Greece ethnicly Greek, by forcing people to migrate and settle new ones to depopulate Macedonian and Albanian populated lands.

[Spartan]

I hope that with my response above, you can understand how today`s Greece created artificially with the intentions of England and how their ultra-nationalist dictator "Venizelos" caused the pain of millions of people in Turkey by invading here and then the suffering of millions more by demanding population exchange.

Well I wouldnt paint it like that, and no I do not agree with your personal 'spin' above....but the information in your previous post is pretty accurate imo.


Oh, and modern Greece became a state in the 1830s, not during/after ww1.

[Onur]

Well I wouldnt paint it like that, and no I do not agree with your personal 'spin' above....but the information in your previous post is pretty accurate imo.


Oh, and modern Greece became a state in the 1830s, not during/after ww1.

Ok, I erased the word "Artificially" from my post but about Greek state issue;

Greece wasn't like today`s "Hellas" b4 population exchange with %40 Muslim population and Albanians+Macedonians living at Aegean side as majority at 1923. Greece became as it is now with the 1.1 million Anatolian immigrants which consisted %45 of its population at 1924.

[Spartan]

Greece became as it is now with the 1.1 million Anatolian immigrants which consisted %45 of its population at 1924.

I agree.
Greeces 2 biggest cities today, also took in the most refugees.
Combined, 75% I think.
However, different areas were affected more than others.
Some areas werent affected at all

[Soldier of Macedon]

Spartan and Mail2onur, thank you very much for your participation in this thread and all of the information you have brought to light, and the manner in which it was done. This has put some things into context which were unclear to me before.

[Onur]

Spartan and Mail2onur, thank you very much for your participation in this thread and all of the information you have brought to light, and the manner in which it was done. This has put some things into context which were unclear to me before.

No problem SOM, thanks for your comments. I hope that i could explain the reality and intentions of Greek mobs/ultra-nationalists because as you most know, everywhere on the internet/youtube and even in some books, there are false Greek propaganda like "Turks destroyed Izmir, they forced Greeks go out of Anatolia, Turks commit genocide in Izmir". They are just poisoning young people`s mind with these bullshit.

I cant even believe that Greeks erected a monument few years ago in Salonika to remember so called "Smyrna genocide"!!!!!!!!!!! and they perform a ceremony at September 9th every year(The day when Greek army has been defeated in Izmir)


I accepted this as my personal duty to explain the truth behind all this since all my grandparents are forced to migrate out from Salonika at 1924 and i got raised with the sad stories i heard from them. Like Greek soldiers crushes the door of my grandfather`s house and throw out my grandmother while she was washing the dishes. They didn't allow anything to bring with her and she said she came to Izmir with no money and with her bedroom clothes on her. Greek soldiers also finds my grandfather at a cafe and put him on a different steamship then my grandmother. Then they find each other in Izmir after 20 days....





Also as you see from the documents i linked, this also effects Macedonian people lived at Aegean side and describes the intentions of Greek Megali Idea.

Even some of the immigrants of 1924 was the Muslim Macedonians and Jews of Salonika. Greeks sent them to Turkey too to wipe out every non-Greek element from Greece.

[julie]

Mail2onur thank you so much for your posts, I have learnt so much, how all the minorities in Aegean Macedonia suffered at the hands of Greek nationalists.

Spartan, you are, as always a champion, and you have both presented something on this thread that has given me clarity and understanding

[Spartan]

SoM, no problems brother, glad i could be of service.
You know i cant let mail2onur run around our forum unchecked lol
I have to give the other side of the story

Julie, you are the champion my dear....thank you for the kind words.