Greeks involved in wars

[Soldier of Macedon]

What happened to the Patriarch was unfair and unjust, a terrible moment. Having said that, as a Macedonian, I can only wonder how many of my people were hanged due to Romaic collaboration with their Ottoman pals in previous and subsequent years.

Was the Patriarch hanged before or after the rebels committed the massacres?

Kissing lions, can you cite the words of one of these famous songs? You know, the one's about women and children? What sort of sick people sing about things like that, explain the mentality and how this is in any way justified?

[Onur]

Was the Patriarch hanged before or after the rebels committed the massacres?

Ehh, nope SOM, Arvanite rebels didn't have any excuse to butcher ~20.000 muslim Greeks, Turks and Albanians by starting an orgy of genocide as William St. Clair wrote in his book. I mean, the patriarch hanged after news of Morean massacre reached to Istanbul.


Quote from the same book above;





Btw, as you see here, the Sultan Mahmud II also executed the Seyhulislam(Ottoman equivalent of patriarch for all muslims) in anger. Few years laters, he also abolished the whole Janissary squad because of their failure in Morea and formed completely new army based on totally different terms.

[TrueMacedonian]

I was reading this book on the train today and laughed to myself. Maybe some of you will see the humor in this too:




History of the Balkans, Volume 1 by Barbara Jelavich

[Soldier of Macedon]

Btw, as you see here, the Sultan Mahmud II also executed the Seyhulislam(Ottoman equivalent of patriarch for all muslims) in anger.

Onur, thanks for raising that point, I was previously unaware that the Sultan also had the Muslim equivalent of the Patriarch executed. This puts a completely different spin on the matter. I wonder why 'kissing lions' failed to mention this event or post a picture of it, as he did with the event concerning the Patriarch. Half the story produced by a half-wit, I guess.

[Onur]

Onur, thanks for raising that point, I was previously unaware that the Sultan also had the Muslim equivalent of the Patriarch executed.

Me neither SOM.

Actually Sultan holds the title of caliph, which means the head of all muslims in the world. Seyhulislam is the 2nd man after the Sultan himself. Seyhulislams was the religious leaders of all muslims tough. Sultans was only holding the caliph title for monarchy order and law but seyhulislams was the practical leaders of all muslims, like the patriarch of the christians.

Probably the Sultan turned mad when he heard the news of butchered ~20.000 people in Morea and he wanted to punish the rebels. In order to to start a campaign, it was a tradition to ask the Seyhulislam`s approval because of religious purposes. It looks like he didn't give approval cuz apparently the patriarch convinced him that only few of the rebels was actually Greeks.

I wonder if he just wanted to save the lives of the Moreans or he really meant that the rebels wasn't Greeks at all. Actually most of the rebels was Albanian speaking Arvanites and traditionally the Byzantine nobles of Phanariots and the patriarchy never considered the peasants of Morea, Athens, Crete as Greeks `till 1880s(thats when their ideology started to change). For them, real Greeks with Byzantine heritage was only the few noble families of Istanbul and Izmir and to me, that was actually the truth.


Btw, Greece`s independence caused big frustration and lots of changes in Ottoman Empire. The patriarch hanged and i think it was the very first and the last time a Sultan executed a patriarch. The Sultan also became hostile to the janissary squad because of their failure in Greece and he secretly invited German military officers to the Istanbul and organized a totally new army and then he abolished the janissary system and old army.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Onur, what is your opinion on this:

http://chicago.agrino.org/turkish_pogrom_against_the_greeks.htm 

The riots in Constantinople during 1955, where several Christians and Jews were attacked, including some of their religious places, by a mob of angry Turks. Why did they do this? Who provoked them?

[Onur]

Onur, what is your opinion on this:

http://chicago.agrino.org/turkish_pogrom_against_the_greeks.htm 

We already discussed this issue earlier;

Whole incident was based on the events in Cyprus. IN 1950s, EOKA had started to commit their first acts towards Turkish Cypriots and people in Turkey was becoming extremely irritated by that. Then false rumors started to spread among people and then the mob gathered and vandalized Greek`s property.

While i indicate that this was a shame for us, i have to say that this was nothing comparing to what was happening in Cyprus. At least no one got hurt in Istanbul, only the properties has been damaged but Greek EOKA members was killing Turkish Cypriots during those days.

Also, no one approved or advocated the events in Istanbul but the acts of EOKA terrorists still praised in Cyprus and they regarded as heroes even today.

Also you should observe what happens after these incidents. As you can see, we still remember and condemn the incident at 1950s, damages done to the Greek`s property. Several association who believed to be supported the mobs has been shut down, huge amount of compensation has been paid to the Greeks and several politician`s carrier ended after this incident but on the other hand, Greeks still praises EOKA terrorists and you bring little kids to their graves and let them put flowers there. Also, damaging Turkish properties is a common thing at western Thrace. I wonder if anyone get caught and punished in Greece for that?.

[Bill77]

Is History Repeating It Self?

I just want to share some thoughts with you guys.

Lately, we have been hearing many reports coming out of greece regarding terrorist acts. The greek government and the media seem to be pointing their fingers at greek communists as being responsible for this.

As you are aware, the greek civil war was fought initially between greek communists and greek fascist/monarcho government.
Are these latest developments in greece the begining of another civil war? is it a case of history repeating it self.

If a civil war eventuates, there would be more questions about history repeating it self. such as,

A) Would the Communists turn to the Macedonians for assistance again with promises? If so, would the Macedonians seize such opertunity or would it be a case of "once bitten twice shy"

B) would Macedonians take part at all and how?

c) If Macedonians did get involved, what would the future say regarding the Macedonians involved? would people like thessa deny they were fighting for free Macedonia and they were nothing but communists? would greek propaganda claim these current Macedonians were nothing but Bulgarians even though currently they claim 99% population is greek.

D) how would the west handle this? do they still perceive communism as a threat? Would the more than ever powerful China stand in the way of the west from getting involved?


hmmmm so many questions so many scenarios. Interesting times ahead to say the least.

[Giorikas]

We already discussed this issue earlier;

Onur, we did discuss about this before, I remember you mentioned then that you were 100% that that pogrom did not happen and no-one was killed.
That was wrong as you later realised. There were killings, many women were also raped, men were circomsized including priests.

We also concluded that there was no connection at all between Cyprus and what happened to those people. Those events in Istabul were staged, and intended (sucessfully) to further reduce the Greek population of Istanbul, despite the Lausanne treaty. Check here one of the pre-printed newspapers: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...1955-09-06.jpg

Contrary to what you said; the very person who threw the fake bomb to Ataturk's house in Thessaloniki (Oktay Engin) was actually exfiltrated from Greece and promoted in Turkey (became governor of Cankaya and later of Nevsehir), much faster then customary.

The financial compensation to Greek organisations was - according to independant sources - by far not adequate.
As far as the Turkish minority in Western Thrace; they are still there and growing with minimum 200,000 persons which is more then one can say about the Greek minority in Istanbul who have been driven out, through this pogrom (for example). You might also want to check on the capital tax (check Varlik Vergisi) imposed especially and disproportionally high on Greeks and Armenians in 1942. That was a good indication of the agenda and sign of things to come.

Ok, it is nice to leave your usual theories here as testimony of propaganda, for all to read back one day, but really in this case it is just too much.

[Onur]

You know i mentioned about the brutal massacre of Cretan Muslims in this message b4;

I found few pictures of the massacre in Crete in 1897. From the library of US congress;


Turkish officials and little "sole survivor" of a village of 350 people, 1897, Candia, Crete;



Around ~15.000 people in Crete has been massacred in just few months at 1897 `till Turkish fleet arrives to the island to rescue remaining muslims. Most of these people was Greek speaking muslims. Only the ones who were "lucky" to be forcefully baptized was able to stay alive `till Turkish fleet reached to the island and then they escaped with it to the village of bodrum, Mugla in Anatolia.

And i just saw this video on youtube by coincidence. 60-80 year old second generation of Cretan immigrants speaks about their families who escaped from the massacre in 1897 and they talk about the Greek songs, rhymes they learned from their parents. So these are the sons formerly Greek muslims of Crete;

YouTube - Kalimerhaba Side4

YouTube - Kalimerhaba Side3


I wonder how many people in Greece knows what has happened in Crete. I don't think even today`s Cretans knows anything about this people. I believe these people at least deserves an apology from Greek state since they were Greeks after all. They learned Turkish after they came to Turkey.

[Ottoman]

Greeks will never be like Turks.

They joined the imperial forces in the first world war to screw us but as we all know; Canakkale gecilmez.

In Turkey our fallen ancestors in the first world war are still rememberd with full honour and pride, Turks will rather die than surrender to the enemy, Turks never run away.

Our whole history is filled with bravery, warriors and war, we just live by these codes, its in our blood.

As a sign of respect, there is no 57th Regiment in the modern Turkish army anymore because this regiment was totally wiped out in battle, they had the chance to run away but they chose death.

[Giorikas]

Ottoman, the reason Turkey got involved in that war was because it chose Germany's side. It's as simple as that really.

[George S.]

OIttoman unlike the turks who were more honorable the greeks had no honor they just used macedonians as cannon fodder & put them in the front lines.They were forced against their wills.The greeks don't haverespect for anyone or anything they will cheat,lie,steal you name it just to get their way.They have broken ecery rule there is in war & committed grave attrocities on the macedonian people.They are totally ignorant & oblivious to what they have done .they hope it will go away.The greeks have broken every war convention there is.

[Onur]

Ottoman, the reason Turkey got involved in that war was because it chose Germany's side. It's as simple as that really.

Thats not true!!!

WW-1 happened in Ottoman soil and whole middle-east re-formed after the war. Western powers with Russia was the aggressors and they occupied whole middle-east, therefore Ottoman Empire had no other choice but allying with Germany. It wasn't something voluntarily done.

[Ottoman]

Ottoman, the reason Turkey got involved in that war was because it chose Germany's side. It's as simple as that really.

I dont care, the Turks battled all alone, you guys joined the imperial forces to hurt us.

Turks always hurt Greeks in war thats a fact, you know why the Turkish army came to Cyprus? because you were hurting the Turkish Cypriots, we are not interested in a war with you guys, because you guys are just nothing but cowards.

Just ask yourself why Greece cant do shit to Macedonia, the Turkish army is waiting there if something is gonna happen.