Albanians in Greece

[tchaiku]

Carlin, where there or where there not Greeks in Athens?

Btw the original text of my post which I got from Freeinquiry says natives not Greeks. But I assumed they meant Greeks by that.

[Amphipolis]

Yes I found it, it is Pouqueville (the Greeks are the ugly ones).

The population of the city is composed of 3,000 Mahometans an equal number of Greeks and 4000 Christian Schypetars or Albanians. The archons who have nothing of the archons of antiquity but the title are nevertheless vain haughty and inhospitable.

The Turk here as every where else grave and dissembling banishes all confidence and cordiality. The Greek constrained in some measure by his unnatural situation in his own country to practice artifice and deceit is supple and cunning. The Albanian a new Pelasgian despising while he serves his masters and oppressors at last resists their tyranny and flees to other countries when fortune disappoints his hopes.

Among the Mahometans many handsome women us it is reported may be fouvid a considerable number also among the Albanians but among the Greeks female beauty is rare For the accuracy of these statements it is impossible for me to answer but I have remarked that in general in Athens human nature does not appear in its most attractive garb.

[tchaiku]

I'm pretty sure the first post of this thread used to have a content that is lost now and cannot guess what it was. This should be a warning to all users with "photo-bucket posts". Within one or a few years nothing remains of your contribution, just empty posts (with no moderator to delete them).

To start with the easy part, Athens by (year) 1800 was not a... village, but with a population of 9-10k still among the Top 10 cities of the South Balkans, and it was No 3 (by population) in the area that later became Greece in 1830s (what is now South Greece).



===

Photobucket pictures are back.

[tchaiku]

What was Fallmerayer expecting when he visited Greece:

What he actually found:

[Liberator of Makedonija]

What was Fallmerayer expecting when he visited Greece:

What he actually found:

Summed up perfectly.

[maco2envy]

'

[tchaiku]

I wonder why was Attica so densely depopulated in 14th century?

[Carlin]

I wonder why was Attica so densely depopulated in 14th century?

Numerous wars, battles, invasions, famines, plagues, destruction of the environment, etc. - but this applies to most of our world (some regions more than others, i.e. Greece). The majority of modern inhabitants of Attica are of ethnic Arvanite stock who settled in Attica only after the 13th/14th c.

Here are some "famous" examples of environmental destruction as well as collapse in population numbers. Even in ancient times, Plato wrote that what remained of Greece was like a skeleton of a sick man.

The screenshots all come from here:

https://www.populationmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/green_history.pdf

Population statistics for Early/Medieval Europe (draw your own conclusions on how many people lived in Greece)


Impact of European expansion on New World Populations (note the Attrition percentage)


The moderators are welcome to move this to a more suitable thread.

[tchaiku]

What is the text quote? Which century does it refer to?

(In photo-bucket) this is a series of bizarre statements by Nakratzas (if I understand correctly) and have been repeatedly debunked, e.g. see Lithoxoou's pro-Albanian efforts to estimate an (inflated version of) Albanian-speakers population.

All writers from the 19th century who have visted Greece put the number of Arvanites from 150K to 200K of early modern Greece. Your Greek censuses are really biased putting the number of Vlachs and Albanians together at 60,000, when there were 50,000 Albanians in Attica alone.

[Carlin]

All official statistical figures and numbers from 19th c. Greece should be taken with grain of salt (some would even argue from 20th c. as well).

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Wasn't sure where to put this one but:

The town of Piana degli Albanesi in Sicily is named as such because the area was settled by families from Koroni in the Peloponnese in the 16th century.

There is still a large Arbėresh population there today, resulting in bilingual signage.

[tchaiku]

At the present time, Athens, the capital of the new kingdom, is more Albanian than it was during the uprising because, after the expulsion of the much-hated and feared Ottomans, the Albanian population abandoned the countryside in great numbers and settled in the city. There, a special court had to be set up in Albanian to administer justice to the non-Greek-speaking citizens of Athens. - Fallmerayer

http://www.albanianhistory.net/1836_Fallmerayer/index.html

[tchaiku]

Euboea

Ottoman census of the Euboean Island.

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo2/A70955.0001.001/1:5?rgn=div1;view=fulltext

17th century
"IT Lyes to the North of Boeotia extending North West and South East about 120 miles; Its Breadth, at the broadest place not above 30. It was taken from the Venetians in the year 1471. The soil is very fertile, affording all sorts of Graine, Wine, and Oyle, as likewise Flesh and Fowl; the Sea abounding with Fish. Since the Turks have had possession of it, most of the Greeks are Fled from the Villages, and Townes; So as the inland places are mostly supplyed by Albaneses, who are the Shepherds, and serve the Turks at their Farmes. Formerly here were two Citys, and 500. Townes and Villages; Now there is but one, which can be called a City, which is the ancient Chalcis and now hath the name of the Island; by the Turks it is called Egriboz. It stands on a point of Land, having the Sea two Thirds about it."

https://pdfslide.net/documents/e-balta-l-eubee-a-la-fin-du-xv-siecle-economie-et-population-les-registres.html

https://it.scribd.com/doc/212234588/E-Balta-L%CA%BC-Eubee-a-la-fin-du-XV-siecle-economie-et-population-les-registres-de-l-annee-1474-INR-Mpalta-89-01

[tchaiku]

https://satellites.pro/Lichada_map

Lisada - Northwestern Euboea:
Nikola Kostapetr, Aritidi Kostapetr, Manol Simos, Nikola Kara binar, Kiryako Karabinar, Cyano Karabinar, Yani Apostolo, Dimitri Kamarya, Nikola Kamarya, Nikola diger Kamarya, Mihal Karasuni, Manol Mavro, Yani Balusi, Yani Zinota, Yorgi Iskinari,* Nikola Vasilyor, Kosta Salusi, Kozma Salusi, Yorgi Salusi,

tetim me-i karye-i L i s a d a

Yorgi Salusi diger, Nikola Salusi diger, Yorgi Vasila, Yorgi Ivreto, Yani Ivreto, Kiryako Ivreto, Dimitri Ivreto, Nikola Ivreto, Luka Sayita, Yani Luka, Nikola Luka, Nikola Salvit, Manol Vasilikör, Kosta Vasilikor, Yorgi Makri, Istamad Makri, Nikola Makri, Yani Vlahoni, Yorgi Vasilinor, Istam ad Vasilinor, Kosta Agapito, Nikola Kamaki, Dimitri Kamaki, Yani Kamaki, Petro Kamaki, Dimitri Romaniti, Hristofor Romaniti, Aleksi Romaniti, Dimitri Arab,* Nikola Kamarana, Mihal Kamarana, Yorgi Rasula, Nikola Rasula, Dimitri Rasula, Gin damad-i Rasula, Nikola Krasos, Kostandin Krasos, Nikola Guri, Petro Guri, Istefan Palusi, Yani Kursari, Dimitri Kursari, Vasili Sarandi, Mihal Sarandi, Yorgi Kavaco, Dimitri Kacavo, Petro Kavaco, Todor Atlazi, Dimitri Atlazi, Aleksi Istasuli, Nikola Arcuras, p.* 147 Yorgi Istasuli, Istamad Lazomondas, Andriya Midali, Yorgi Kisaki, Nikola Kisaki, Dimitri Toto, Nikola Toti, Yani Sarandi, Yorgi Toto, Yorgi Morya, Yakomo Morya, Dimitri Morayit, Nikola Lalandari, Todor Lalandari, Istefan Lalandari, Yorgi Lalandari, Mihal Kukyopulo, Istamad Harikopulo. Yorgi Livada, Dimitri Livada, Yani Livada, Mihal Halkya, Yorgi Tramasi, Istamad Tumaniti, Yani Avloniti, Gini Agriyomat, Mihal Agriyomat, Yani Agriyimat, Yorgi Agriyomat, Petro Anastas, Hristodulo Kamaki, Manol Davikar, Nikola Kataduka, Istamad Ivreto, Apostoli Drako, Paraski Tomadya, Gini Landari, Kiryako Landari, Mihal Varas, Garuso Davas, Yani Mistros, Nikola Palyatura, Yani Palyatura, Dimitri Valkyoti, Dimitri Anastas, Dimitri Kursari, Yorgi Avlonit, Trogyos Kadikyopulo, Yani Harikyopulo, Andriya Balayot, Istamad Kalayot, Vlasi Gromyo, p.* 148 Petro Romana, Yani Crigar, Petro Balas, Manol Agramyot, Yorgi Agramyot, Nikola Saluti, Yani Karalasa, Papadimitri Kisaryo, Kosta Iksano, Istamad Maromat, Yorgi Nyaka, Todo Dugar, Manol Vavasi, Petro Akaras, Saro Dragumano, Katokuki Cikna, Muruzi Ihsalya, Kosta Mavasari, Potino Muvasa Iksida, Nikola Anastas, Yani Vatikyot, bīve Arhondo, bīve Sumalya, bīve Malalya, bīve tu Vasila, bīve tu Yakomo, bīve tu Simiyu, bīve Harulya.


The ones I have marked are typically Albanian eg. Jorgi - Gjergji, Gin - Gjin, Petro Guri, Luka. I will post several other for central and northern Euboea which proves the Albanian presence in these regions. The south (1/3) was almost entirely Arvanite in 1904.

Kursari is also found among Kosovar Albanians as well as Makri in Tosk Albanians. Most of these people were probably Albanians but I am marking more obvious examples specifically.
Eg. Makri, Guri and Toti/Toto in Gjirokasater:

https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjirokastra#Demografia

[Carlin]

1) "The population of Euboea at the present day is made up of elements not less various, for many of the Greek inhabitants seem to have immigrated, partly from the mainland, and partly from other islands; and besides these, the southern portion is occupied by Albanians, who probably have come from Andros; and in the mountain districts nomad Vlach shepherds are found."

URL:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica/Euboea

Vlach settlements in Euboea, both in the central and northern Euboea and in Kymi-Aliveri, lost the (Vlach) language by the early 19th century.

2) "Boeotia, with Euboea, is largely in the hands of Toskh Albanians."

URL:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=XlOg3ucdUrYC&pg=PA153&dq=euboea+toskh+albanians&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj98oHrzZjoAhVLdt8KHUHlBocQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=euboea%20toskh%20albanians&f=false