Albanians in Greece

[osiris]

me too,

as we all know on this forum modern greece owes its existence to albanians, but why did they so readily give up their own identity to become a parody of the ancient greeks.

i would have admired them had they stood true to their real past, as it transpired what can you say they were all eager and willing sellouts, grkomani.

their acceptance of hellenism makes the modern greek identity completely hollow, and still our wannabee hellenic wankers today dare to preach to others.

[Risto the Great]

You may have misunderstood my original post Epirot.
I did not mean Albanians in Greece now, more in relation to 60-70 years ago.

In fact, perhaps the thread is misleading. I am talking about occupied Macedonia which is Northern Greece now. There was Flambour which was a complete Albanian village. My Father's village is Kotori and had a 25% Albanian population. They migrated to Western Macedonia relatively recently. Naturally, they are more Greek than any Greeks now, but 50 years ago it was very different.

As I said, in the civil war, Macedonians who fled to Albania were treated very well and will never forget the hospitality from people who had not much more than them. But in my father's village, the recent Albanian immigrants were quite troublesome. Many would report the Macedonians to the local Greek police for all sorts of silly reasons. The Greek police did not need much inspiration to throw the Macedonians in jail. Most Macedonians from Western Macedonia consider the Albanian immigrants more troublesome than the Turkish imports. Naturally this was not the case for all Albanians. I recall a visit from a beautiful old man who came to visit my family when my Father passed away last year. He was baptised in the same water as my Father's Vujko (Uncle). He was an Albanian of my Father's village and my Father had nothing but respect for him. I was saddened to hear of his death recently, I wish I knew about it at the time.

I still think Macedonians and Albanians can live together. But something very bad has happened in the Republic of Macedonia and is largely due to external influences.

[osiris]

risto i too have had very positive and rewarding experiences with albanians and i really dont know how the situation in macedonia got to that stage.

[Epirot]

Originally posted by osiris

hey eporiote please expand on the above i am very interested to know more about the albanian role in illinden.

Certainly! I'll tell you what I've read in some historical books (Croatian I guess) who threws much-needed light to the Krusheva's uprising. The governing institutions appointed to represent politically Albanians because they deserve it due to their contributions in this struggle. Many Albanian guerilas (like Çerçiz Topulli and his revolutionary group) co-operated with Macedonian ones in order to liberate our peoples from Ottoman yoke. This co-operation with one another was concerned especially in Ohër (Ohrid as you call), Prespa Lake - Resnjë (or Resen as you call), Selanik (or Saluna as you call). Even the noteworthy Macedonian hero Goce Dolçevi (I'll pronounce him in Albanian) wore Albanian dress. This shows that co-operation of Macedonians with Albanians and their mutual relations were brilliant and so should be in future since we have common goals.

Originally posted by prolet

Its true that the Albanians Participated in the Ilinden Uprising and this was stated by Nikola Karev, but in WW2 it was the Balisti who caused most of the problems. They sided with the Fascists and Nazis, however im not too sure about the renaming of our cities. Its Debar not Dibra, as for the Albanians its Greece they are almost non existent there i think Vinozito even offered them support and representation.

Nice you chose to quote Nikola Karev who appreciated our contribution to Krusheva's struggle! You know during WW2 throughout Europe many political or warfare groups colaborated with Nazi-Facist in order to get some power for their political intents. But, a few Albanians thought as a right way to co-operated with Germans or Italians because they attempt to find an ally in order to liberate themselves from Serbian or Greek yoke. Even Chechens or other Caucasian people fought in one side with Germans against Russian rule. It is an another question that they chosen way was entirely wrong judged by contemporary angle.

It's nice too seeing co-operation of expelled Aegean Macedonians and Chams of Chameria. They had the same destiny and have still the same problems of non-recogntion of their national identity by shameful member of EU.

[Epirot]

me too,

as we all know on this forum modern greece owes its existence to albanians, but why did they so readily give up their own identity to become a parody of the ancient greeks.

i would have admired them had they stood true to their real past, as it transpired what can you say they were all eager and willing sellouts, grkomani.

their acceptance of hellenism makes the modern greek identity completely hollow, and still our wannabee hellenic wankers today dare to preach to others.

The reason why many Albanians somewhat give up so rapidly by accepting ''Greek''' identity is because of their bad financial state. When in question is existence of their families, people haven't many opportunity to choose. A number of Orthodox Albanians are actually 'Greacized' due to Orthodox ''Greek'' Church who enumerate wrongly Orthodox Albanians as '''Greeks'''. The chief problem is that Albanian Orthodox Church has lost its independence because after 1990's (after the fall of Communist system in Albania) was appointed a ''Greek' as a Archbishop. This Archbishop derived from Instambul 'Greek' Church and his name is Anastasios Janullatos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_Anastasios_of_Albania

Unfortunately, masses in some Orthodox Albanian monasteries are given in '''Greek'' (the language of God as once said Saint Cosma of Aetolia - a donkey of ''Greek' Patriarchat) and not in Albanian. The Albanian National Orthodox Church is under control of Greece and its mechanism.
The chief enemies of ''Greek'' Church are Albanian and Macedonian ones because due to these church is stopped process of 'Greacization' of Macedonians, Vlachs and Albanians. Sorry, if I cannot express my opinions better in English (cuz my English is not so good).

[Epirot]

You may have misunderstood my original post Epirot.
I did not mean Albanians in Greece now, more in relation to 60-70 years ago.

In fact, perhaps the thread is misleading. I am talking about occupied Macedonia which is Northern Greece now. There was Flambour which was a complete Albanian village. My Father's village is Kotori and had a 25% Albanian population. They migrated to Western Macedonia relatively recently. Naturally, they are more Greek than any Greeks now, but 50 years ago it was very different.

As I said, in the civil war, Macedonians who fled to Albania were treated very well and will never forget the hospitality from people who had not much more than them. But in my father's village, the recent Albanian immigrants were quite troublesome. Many would report the Macedonians to the local Greek police for all sorts of silly reasons. The Greek police did not need much inspiration to throw the Macedonians in jail. Most Macedonians from Western Macedonia consider the Albanian immigrants more troublesome than the Turkish imports. Naturally this was not the case for all Albanians. I recall a visit from a beautiful old man who came to visit my family when my Father passed away last year. He was baptised in the same water as my Father's Vujko (Uncle). He was an Albanian of my Father's village and my Father had nothing but respect for him. I was saddened to hear of his death recently, I wish I knew about it at the time.

I still think Macedonians and Albanians can live together. But something very bad has happened in the Republic of Macedonia and is largely due to external influences.

You're right. Albanians and Macedonians should keep good relations with one another because of their common purposes. I know that in official policies always something goes wrong, but we should prevent enmity between two peoples. If we are going to fight one another, thus it goes in favour of Greece. Am I right?

P.S: Just for curiosity I'd like to know about two above mentioned villages: Flambour & Kotori? Where does they located? In which part of Aegean Macedonia?

[El Bre]

Here's a little fluff from wiki about the Albanian villages of Florina...Take it for what it's worth.

According to this, our Albanian friends appear to be new to the area. Relatively speaking.

Flampouro (Greek: Φλάμπουρο, Albanian: Negovan) is a village in the central part of Florina prefecture, northern Greece, part of the Perasma municipality. The original indigenous name for the village of Flambouro is Negovani and means "cold water" (known for its pure mineral water source) The village's year round population is estimated at 500 people, but in the summer it grows to nearly 700. In the surrounding area many other villages can be found, including Aetos, Skopia, Kato Idroussa, and Ano Idroussa.

The original village was established in the 1840s by villagers (mostly masons and other tradesmen) who came from Plikati and other villages from Mastorohoria (a region around Mount Gramos) in Epirus. The villagers were Arvanites and they settled in an area of West Macedonia that was almost exclusively populated by indigenous (endopi) Macedonians. There are now three villages in the area that were exclusively settled by Arvanites. They are Drosopigi, Flambouro, and Lechovo. In 1842, leading families from Plikati, Epirus purchased the land and forest after negotiating with Osman Ismael Pasha, the Bey from Florina. The village was inhabited many families. The total population at 1900 had reached 1,880.

Check this map. Find Lerin and look to the south-east, there you will find the villages mentioned above.

http://www.greeklandscapes.com/images/maps/greecemap/gr_t_01b.jpg

[Risto the Great]

Thanks EB,
Kato Idroussa, and Ano Idroussa are Dolno & Gorno Kotori by the way.

Epirot, it looks like you will find may of your relatives have migrated to this region.

[Frank]

This is the first I have ever heard that Albanians activly took part in the Macedonian Uprising, if this is indeed true why today in the Republic do Albanians then literally throw dirty at the National Day.

[Risto the Great]

This is the first I have ever heard that Albanians activly took part in the Macedonian Uprising, if this is indeed true why today in the Republic do Albanians then literally throw dirty at the National Day.

Welcome Frank, it looks like the ethnic Albanians in Macedonia are being encouraged to diminish the Macedonian identity nowadays. Let us not make any mistake about it, the Ilinden uprising was the culmination of Macedonian networks throughout all of Macedonia working towards overthrowing the repressive Ottoman regime. Vlachs and Albanians were part of the process but the networks across all of Macedonia only existed because of Macedonians.

[TrueMacedonian]

This is the first I have ever heard that Albanians activly took part in the Macedonian Uprising

The following is from 1901 from Madam Tsilka's unpublished memoirs about the story of her being kidnapped with Miss Stone by Macedonians;

Very soon a man emerged from a pile of branches and came near us. He looked nervous and confused and hesitated in his speech. "Please," I said, "Tell us, are you Christian bandits of Turks?"
"Oh," he said "We are a mixture of faiths and nationalities. Among us are Bulgarians and Albanians, Serbs and Macedonians. We even have a Jew with us. But we are no bandits. You shall know very soon why you were captured."

The man who spoke was Jane Sandanski. There's been newspaper articles of Boris Sarafov meeting with Albanian Revolutionaries in Albania when they began fighting the Turks in their own ground. But we must not forget that these Albanians were most likely christian as opposed to the muslims who did fight the Macedonians.

why today in the Republic do Albanians then literally throw dirty at the National Day.

I think that way too many profiteering propagandists have been plucking away at the heartstrings of the average Albanian in Macedonia.

[osiris]

i have heard that mother theresa's father was in vmro can anyone throw some light on this subject.

[Big Bad Sven]

Certainly! I'll tell you what I've read in some historical books (Croatian I guess) who threws much-needed light to the Krusheva's uprising. The governing institutions appointed to represent politically Albanians because they deserve it due to their contributions in this struggle. Many Albanian guerilas (like Çerçiz Topulli and his revolutionary group) co-operated with Macedonian ones in order to liberate our peoples from Ottoman yoke. This co-operation with one another was concerned especially in Ohër (Ohrid as you call), Prespa Lake - Resnjë (or Resen as you call), Selanik (or Saluna as you call). Even the noteworthy Macedonian hero Goce Dolçevi (I'll pronounce him in Albanian) wore Albanian dress. This shows that co-operation of Macedonians with Albanians and their mutual relations were brilliant and so should be in future since we have common goals.

Çerçiz Topulli appears to be from southern albania, and is mainly known for his battles in southern albania and battles in the north with the montenegrins. Not much of a macedonian hero to me.

Im not saying macedonians did not work with certain types of albanians to free each other from the ottoman yoke, but i dont think it was as strong or effective as most internet albanians make it out to be.


Nice you chose to quote Nikola Karev who appreciated our contribution to Krusheva's struggle! You know during WW2 throughout Europe many political or warfare groups colaborated with Nazi-Facist in order to get some power for their political intents. But, a few Albanians thought as a right way to co-operated with Germans or Italians because they attempt to find an ally in order to liberate themselves from Serbian or Greek yoke. Even Chechens or other Caucasian people fought in one side with Germans against Russian rule. It is an another question that they chosen way was entirely wrong judged by contemporary angle.

It's nice too seeing co-operation of expelled Aegean Macedonians and Chams of Chameria. They had the same destiny and have still the same problems of non-recogntion of their national identity by shameful member of EU.

Is there any proof of Albanians fighting along side with the macedonians in Krusevo? I have always heard this on the internet but never any real hard facts. I have even heard claims that Pitu Guli and the other vlach that thought where really "albanians".
Strange that we celebrate macedonians and even vlach that died in Krusevo but the supposed Albanians?

Çerçiz Topulli appears to have been born in southern albania, and his military activity seems to be focused in southern albania, and later fighting the montenigrins in the North. Hardly a macedonian hero?

Im not saying that albanians did not side with macedonians some times to free themselves from the ottoman yoke, i have seen the old artilce from the London times where macedonian and albanian rebels call each other brothers, but i just dont think the "friendship" or albanian involvement was all that commen, espicially as most internet albanians make it out to be.

[Big Bad Sven]

This is the first I have ever heard that Albanians activly took part in the Macedonian Uprising, if this is indeed true why today in the Republic do Albanians then literally throw dirty at the National Day.

Firstly most of the albanians that collaberated with the macedonians where tosks, from southern albania, north west aegean macedonia or south west vardar macedonia. They where also christian.

The trouble makers in the republic today are ghegs and muslims from the north. Ghegs have always been a bit more violent and backwards, even when compared to their "tosk brothers".

And secondly and most most importantly, the macedonian celebration of Krusevo has nothing to do with albanians - hence why they dont care about it, celebrate it or probably even know about it. Albanians celebrate the Leuge of Prizren more so then the Illenden uprising. For those who dont know the Leuge of Prizren was a movement for greater albania in ottoman times.

Conclusion: Dont believe the lie.

[Epirot]

Firstly most of the albanians that collaberated with the macedonians where tosks, from southern albania, north west aegean macedonia or south west vardar macedonia. They where also christian.

The trouble makers in the republic today are ghegs and muslims from the north. Ghegs have always been a bit more violent and backwards, even when compared to their "tosk brothers".

And secondly and most most importantly, the macedonian celebration of Krusevo has nothing to do with albanians - hence why they dont care about it, celebrate it or probably even know about it. Albanians celebrate the Leuge of Prizren more so then the Illenden uprising. For those who dont know the Leuge of Prizren was a movement for greater albania in ottoman times.

Conclusion: Dont believe the lie.

Let straight things in order!
The League of Prizren wasn't attempt to create 'Great Albania'. The League of Prizren aimed to protect all Albanian lands from partition decided in Congress of Berlin. Saying that League of Prizren was attempt for Greater Albania is equal with saying that Kruesheva Struggle was aimed for Great Macedonia.

For the sake of debate, can you elaborate better what do you mean with 'Great Albania'? The 'Greater Albania' is nothing else but a fallacious term invented by Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece in order to hide their expansionist nature. It has Great Bulgaria because it encompassing non-Bulgarian lands like: Macedonia of Pirin and Rhodope Mountains - region of more than 900,000 Turks. Right! It has Great Serbia because it occupied itself non-Serbian land like Vojvodina (homeland of thousands of ethnic Hungarians), Sandjak (homeland of thousands of Bosniaks and Albanians), Presheva Valley (150,000 Albanians peopled there), Timoko Valley (50,000 Rumanians do live there). It has also Great Greece because all of its northern and eastern parts are in fact, non-greek lands occupied by military force (Epirus a.k.a.Chameria, Aegean Macedonia, Thrace, Aegean Islands, etc).

If you persist that it has Great Albania, then it has also Great Macedonia. How do you feel when '''Greeks''' accused you of irredentical behaviours in order to make 'Great Macedonia'.
Finally, 'Great Macedonia' or 'Great Albania' are fictive terms and we shouldn't waste our time by talking of fallacious terms, should we?

If Albanians do not celebrate anniversaries of Kruesheva Repuplic that does not mean that Albanians had not contribute in this struggle. Two years ago, I've a brief visit in Krusheva muzeums. There I saw many old photos of both Albanian and Macedonian fighters. Below of each picture were names of revolutionaries, and although they were in Cirilic alphabet I found many of them Albanian.