The Greek "province" of Macedonia, fact or fiction?

[Risto the Great]

i think your overextending yourself on this one ^^^

dont confuse my ability to converse and admit learning something rather than being a stubborn fool. It still doesnt change my opinion that it was done in bad taste and only helped fuel the fire between us.

You do realise the the Republic of Macedonia is full of Macedonians who had to leave Greece due to being Macedonians. If Gruevski bowed to a wreath remembering Macedonians in all of Macedonia. Then he did it as a personal favour to me. My people don't come from present day Macedonia but were and are Macedonians. Gruevski showed me respect. I like him for that. What exactly is your problem with that?

The fire between Macedonians and Greeks has been fueled by Greece for 100 years. Can you think of examples where Greece has caused problems prior to the ridiculous and incorrect example of banknotes you gave?

[Soldier of Macedon]

First off...Yes im a "chicagoan"...but im not a woman though.

I couldn't care less about your gender, what interests me is your agenda. Your first banning wasn't an overreaction, in fact, you were probably given ample opportunity to change your racist behaviour. You didn't. And as far as I am aware the ban was not lifted, rather, the administrators of the MTO decided to let you slither back in and try and correct your previously appalling attitude towards the Macedonian people. Let's see how much progress you've made.

I believe you use the " racist " card to often.

You are a racist. If you weren't, you wouldn't have been banned in the first place. Personally, I don't think you've changed your thinking, you are still a racist against the Macedonian people, the only difference now is, you will be a little more 'careful' in how you push your pathetic little agenda here. When you racists learn to respect the self-identity of another people, then I will cease to call you racists. Until then, you are still a filthy racist, and I don't think we will have to wait for too long before you exhibit the same attitude again.

My purpose is to debate on issues i find important.

Your purpose is to deny the existence of the Macedonian people, and their Macedonian identity. That, is your purpose. That, is why you are a racist. Prove me wrong - Go to some Greek racist webiste and tell them that you acknowledge and accept my people and identity - Can you do that?

Its really not interesting to be in a forum where everyone agrees with you.

Do you think we created this forum so we can have racists like you come here and initiate perpetual arguments? Why would we want a forum where we allow racists to deny the existence of the Macedonian people and the Macedonian identity? Seriously, use your little elementary 'excuses' where they will find an audience, right now, nothing you have provided elevates itself above stupidity.

Im having a hard time understanding your logic SOM. I find it highly flawed.

Of course you are, and of course you do, because you lack any logic yourself. Your type of 'logic' is racism, and in that there is no logic at all.

Its unfortunate that you carry this hardline attitude. Its this attitude that is holding relations back.

No, it is the racism of the Greek government and a large segment of Greek society that holds back relations. If I was a hardliner, a racist, or whatever else, I would not even acknowledge your existence as a Greek, but despite all of the hardships my people have faced at the hands of yours, I still manage to give "you people" the courtesy of respecting your self-identity. You are Greek? Good for you. I am a Macedonian. But of course, that isn't good enough for you, as if the Macedonians need to ask the permission of some racist who's grandparents probably spoke Albanian or Turkish, on how we can identify ourselves. Go and live your life, because we are living ours.

You aren't even close to being a logical or moderate Greek, you are as racist as they come, you've just learned how to sugar-coat your responses after years of honing your racist idiocy on the internet. I bet in real life you wouldn't think about stepping up to a Macedonian and telling him your racist garbage the way you do behind your PC monitor.

Make no mistake about it, if I even think you are being your usual racist self, you will be banned from here, again, and it will be the last time. Don't for a second think that you are needed here to 'represent' the Greek view, we have normal Greeks to do that, you know, the one's that don't foam at the mouth everytime they hear about the Macedonians.

[Alpha]

Your purpose is to deny the existence of the Macedonian people, and their Macedonian identity. That, is your purpose. That, is why you are a racist. Prove me wrong - Go to some Greek racist webiste and tell them that you acknowledge and accept my people and identity - Can you do that?

No, my purpose is not to deny anyone. I am a libertarian politically so what you said is completely false. Even if you search my previous posts under my previous nick you will see i never negated anybody. I may have been over-condescending at times but never a racist. I have been in other greek forums and I have expressed my opinion on this matter. If you think im a racist then you havnt met one yet.

Do you think we created this forum so we can have racists like you come here and initiate perpetual arguments? Why would we want a forum where we allow racists to deny the existence of the Macedonian people and the Macedonian identity? Seriously, use your little elementary 'excuses' where they will find an audience, right now, nothing you have provided elevates itself above stupidity.

I cant remember where i saw it...but somewhere in this forum there is a description of why MTO was created. As a matter of fact, it welcomed greeks to come here and engage in discussion. I think it was Dakalot..but i will search to find it if you want.

You aren't even close to being a logical or moderate Greek, you are as racist as they come, you've just learned how to sugar-coat your responses after years of honing your racist idiocy on the internet. I bet in real life you wouldn't think about stepping up to a Macedonian and telling him your racist garbage the way you do behind your PC monitor.

I dont have a problem of anybody expressing their identity. My problem is when that same person that complains about being ignored or not recognised...does the SAME exact thing to other people.

Make no mistake about it, if I even think you are being your usual racist self, you will be banned from here, again, and it will be the last time. Don't for a second think that you are needed here to 'represent' the Greek view, we have normal Greeks to do that, you know, the one's that don't foam at the mouth everytime they hear about the Macedonians.

Am i that much of a threat on this forum ? Being banned twice for expressing opinion that DOES NOT negate anyone ? Do i have to agree with you in order to post here ?

[Alpha]

You do realise the the Republic of Macedonia is full of Macedonians who had to leave Greece due to being Macedonians. If Gruevski bowed to a wreath remembering Macedonians in all of Macedonia. Then he did it as a personal favour to me. My people don't come from present day Macedonia but were and are Macedonians. Gruevski showed me respect. I like him for that. What exactly is your problem with that?

The fire between Macedonians and Greeks has been fueled by Greece for 100 years. Can you think of examples where Greece has caused problems prior to the ridiculous and incorrect example of banknotes you gave?

Risto...the banknote was one example i showed. It doesnt matter that it wasnt official. Lets not split hairs here...It was done in bad taste and if you tried to pull a stunt like that with Turkey. It would of been a hell of a lot more than just an embargo.

Now for the laying of the wreath by Gruevski. I dont buy it. It just goes to show how diplomatically incompetent the guy is. What does he expect to happen when he pulls stunts like this ? Do you see Papoulias laying a wreath that shows Hellenic Greece as it once was ? We had over hundred thousand that left their home in Asia Minor. Do you see us laying wreaths that shows aegean Turkey as part of hellenic lands ?
Its these types of stunts that hurt relations Risto. Even the international community knows this.

As far as macedonians leaving Greece. There were many greek communists that also left with them. Its unfortunate, and I believe that we wiill see them welcomed back soon once this issue is resolved.

[Risto the Great]

You can't think of one example where Greece has fueled the fire Alpha?
Not even a little one ... even as trivial as an opposition party making up a fake banknote?
Why would resolving the Macedonian issue help in welcoming back Greek communists? Do you mean the Macedonian communists? You really are not making sense Alpha. If the issue is resolved and the Macedonian communists come back, will they have to call themselves something else before they are let in? Greece sounds childish to me.

Do you see Papoulias laying a wreath that shows Hellenic Greece as it once was ?

No, I don't see any Greek mourning Greece as it once was, it would be smaller than it is now. But actually, I see stuff on Greek TV mourning the plight of the former Christian Turkish Nationals probably every day whenever I am there. Are you saying that no Greek politician has offered any compassion to these former Turkish nationals? I don't buy it. I certainly don't see any need to compare Greece's actions with what Turkey might have done in similar circumstances. That is a silly example. Why not compare Greece with Western nations. It really falls behind. Why strive for mediocrity instead of trying to become a champion of human rights in the Balkans?

[Soldier of Macedon]

I have been in other greek forums and I have expressed my opinion on this matter.

Really? Can you show me a link to your post where you ask those racists to respect and acknowledge the Macedonian people and the Macedonian identity? Come on, suprise me.

Am i that much of a threat on this forum ? Being banned twice for expressing opinion that DOES NOT negate anyone ?

Lol, get over yourself, what threat, racists are a waste of time, not a threat. Like I said, you want to prove you aren't a racist, show me evidence of it, because as it stands, you give the impression of a racist walking on egg shells to survive on a forum where everybody already knows your game.

Perhaps you will prove me wrong, I hope you do, I have good Greek friends and they don't have to walk on egg shells, just be normal. Such a hard thing for some I guess......

[Bill77]

So Alpha, would you call your self a liberal and think out side the box?

[Alpha]

^^^ Im in no way a liberal, Im a liberatarian...there is a difference. US Senator Ron Paul is a liberatarian. Liberals are democrats like Hilary Clinton.

[Alpha]

Really? Can you show me a link to your post where you ask those racists to respect and acknowledge the Macedonian people and the Macedonian identity? Come on, suprise me.

Lol, get over yourself, what threat, racists are a waste of time, not a threat. Like I said, you want to prove you aren't a racist, show me evidence of it, because as it stands, you give the impression of a racist walking on egg shells to survive on a forum where everybody already knows your game.

Perhaps you will prove me wrong, I hope you do, I have good Greek friends and they don't have to walk on egg shells, just be normal. Such a hard thing for some I guess......

SOM, i wont post a link for obvious reasons. But just to clarify to you once and for all my position on macedonians. I believe them to be bilingual group of ppl. Macedonian and Greek speaking...both can say they are macedonians. Do you have a problem with that ?

[Bill77]

^^^ Im in no way a liberal, Im a liberatarian...there is a difference. US Senator Ron Paul is a liberatarian. Liberals are democrats like Hilary Clinton.

I looked up liberatarian and did not mean it that way. But i think you answered my question anyway, You don't think outside the box. So you have blinkers on. Hmmmm says alot.

[Alpha]

You can't think of one example where Greece has fueled the fire Alpha?
Not even a little one ... even as trivial as an opposition party making up a fake banknote?
Why would resolving the Macedonian issue help in welcoming back Greek communists? Do you mean the Macedonian communists? You really are not making sense Alpha. If the issue is resolved and the Macedonian communists come back, will they have to call themselves something else before they are let in? Greece sounds childish to me.


No, I don't see any Greek mourning Greece as it once was, it would be smaller than it is now. But actually, I see stuff on Greek TV mourning the plight of the former Christian Turkish Nationals probably every day whenever I am there. Are you saying that no Greek politician has offered any compassion to these former Turkish nationals? I don't buy it. I certainly don't see any need to compare Greece's actions with what Turkey might have done in similar circumstances. That is a silly example. Why not compare Greece with Western nations. It really falls behind. Why strive for mediocrity instead of trying to become a champion of human rights in the Balkans?

Risto, i never said we were innocent. We should of resolved this in the 90's...no doubt about it. That is our fault for being extremists.
Christian Turkish National ? Well, i am one of those ppl. Half my family is from Asia Minor...and to answer your question. No, you wont see any politicians invoking lost land or wreaths or anything. Just some rhetoric once in a while from nationalists but thats about it. We are over it, and its OK.

[Alpha]

I looked up liberatarian and did not mean it that way. But i think you answered my question anyway, You don't think outside the box. So you have blinkers on. Hmmmm says alot.

According to the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

Libertarians are committed to the belief that individuals, and not states or groups of any other kind, are both ontologically and normatively primary;that individuals have rights against certain kinds of forcible interference on the part of others; that liberty, understood as non-interference, is the only thing that can be legitimately demanded of others as a matter of legal or political right; that robust property rights and the economic liberty that follows from their consistent recognition are of central importance in respecting individual liberty; that social order is not at odds with but develops out of individual liberty; that the only proper use of coercion is defensive or to rectify an error; that governments are bound by essentially the same moral principles as individuals; and that most existing and historical governments have acted improperly insofar as they have utilized coercion for plunder, aggression, redistribution, and other purposes beyond the protection of individual liberty.[5]

[Bill77]

Get over it and don't wary about your copy and paste Libertarians definition. I asked if you are someone that thinks out side the box. But i came to a conclusion through your response and all your other posts you have blinkers on and are a whaist of time talking to. once a racist always a racist.

[Alpha]

Bill, you think i would care if you came up to me and told me your a macedonian ?
A racist would have a fit...id probably buy you a drink.

you get over it...

[Soldier of Macedon]

SOM, i wont post a link for obvious reasons.

What obvious reasons? I don't get it, are you afraid of what your fellow Greeks would think?

I believe them to be bilingual group of ppl. Macedonian and Greek speaking...both can say they are macedonians. Do you have a problem with that ?

Yes I do, because that is a lie. It is like saying the Greeks are a qudra-lingual group who speak Macedonian, Greek, Albanian and Vlach. Do you have a problem with that?