The Existence of a Macedonian Minority in Greece!

[chicagoan]

lol ! ok George.

Thanks for laying the " truth " easy on me. I bet you werent even around during the time of Yugoslavia to see the difference. All this truth happens to come out within the last decade.

anyway, you probably a nice kid caught up in politics and romanticism. Let me give you a piece of advise. Dont base your life on what a couple ppl tell you. Go out, travel, talk to ppl and read as many books as possible. Maybe then, you will see the truth.
Leave the politics to the politicians...thats what they are there for.

[Sovius]

lol ! ok George.

Thanks for laying the " truth " easy on me. I bet you werent even around during the time of Yugoslavia to see the difference. All this truth happens to come out within the last decade.

anyway, you probably a nice kid caught up in politics and romanticism. Let me give you a piece of advise. Dont base your life on what a couple ppl tell you. Go out, travel, talk to ppl and read as many books as possible. Maybe then, you will see the truth.
Leave the politics to the politicians...thats what they are there for.

I always thought Chicagoan was a Native American word for ‘Politically Correct Fascist’, but when I checked my Turkish Dictionary it just said ‘shit for brains’, can you please provide some clarification?

Also, how does behaving in a condescending manner towards George relate to the subject of this thread? Ah! You’re providing everyone with an example of how native Macedonians who think differently about their cultural heritage are treated in Droysenland! Very innovative of you!


If Jason opened up a thread entitled examples of 20th and 21st Century Greek Propaganda, I’m certain it would’ve been well received and given the attention (deconstruction) it deserved. In fact, if you were so inclined, you could use the site’s search engine and do it yourself, if you were truly interested in learning, rather than reinforcing what you would like others to believe. I’ve learned a great deal and I’m sure you would as well.

So, what are your thoughts on the existence of a Macedonian minority in Greece and what are your thoughts regarding the fact that it is forbidden for ethnic Macedonians living in Greece to speak the Macedonian language in public? I’m basing the assertions rooted in my questions on information provided by the United States government’s website for world languages.

Thank you in advance for an honest and well thought out response that is reflective of the reality of the subject.

[chicagoan]

Jason's post were removed...

Now as far as your question you posed to me about how i feel about the macedonian minority, i will say this...

According to the times almanac on this forums home page, there is a 1.8% macedonian population in Greece. First off, You tell me how that justifies a minority. Secondly, These ppl even have a political party that represents them. And yet macedonians in Greece vote for other parties not the rainbow one. They only get like 3000 votes each time.

You being spoonfed BS on a huge scale and the fact that you say the macedonian language is prohibited is indictive of how misinformed you really are. You think greek ppl give a shit if you talk macedonian in public ? Like i told George...Go, Travel...Talk to ppl. Then make a conclusion.

Here is a quote from my favorite politician in the US which sums up nicely about how i feel about minorities in general. Although he was talking about America...I still would like to share this.

" Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that
views humans strictly as members of groups rather than individuals..."

"...By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates
of so called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. Their obsession with
racial group identity is inherently racist..."

"..We should understand that racism will endure until we stop thinking
in terms of groups and begin thinking in terms of individual liberty."

- Congressman Ron Paul

[TrueMacedonian]

lol ! ok George.

Thanks for laying the " truth " easy on me. I bet you werent even around during the time of Yugoslavia to see the difference. All this truth happens to come out within the last decade.

anyway, you probably a nice kid caught up in politics and romanticism. Let me give you a piece of advise. Dont base your life on what a couple ppl tell you. Go out, travel, talk to ppl and read as many books as possible. Maybe then, you will see the truth.
Leave the politics to the politicians...thats what they are there for.

Yes I do recommend reading as many books as possible. This is how you understand the racist psyche of todays imposter hellene that denies the existence of a Macedonian minority in Aegean Macedonia.

Chicano what do you think about what Panayote Dimitras stated in this BBC article - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4101469.stm

According to Panayote Dimitras, spokesman of the anti-racism campaign group the Greek Helsinki Monitor, racism in Greece is deep-rooted.

"Greek national culture is one that believes there is a superiority of the Greek nation which is a continuous descendent of the ancient Greeks, and when you think like this about yourself it is very easy to think that the others are inferior," he says.

Chicano you sputtering about telling us that you're related to the dead ancient race of Hellenes is a joke. It's your racism that has clouded your reality. In the land of make believe you are related to Plato and are descendents of Agamemnon. In real life the supposed "greeks" in Aegean Macedonia have a 80 year history and come from all walks of life from differing nations. Now that you're attempts to try and take this topic off-topic have failed let's get back on topic and provide some more info on the Macedonian minority in Aegean Macedonia.

[TrueMacedonian]

[chicagoan]

How do I feel about Pangiote Dimitras ? Well, he has an opinion and the fact that he can express his opinion on international public channels without having assassination attempts on his life just goes to show how Greece in not a fascist state...unlike some other countries.

Also, i did not go off topic...it was a personal response to George. You apparantly missed the part when I went BACK on topic replying to Sovius. Also, this imposter - dead race comments are not helping your case. When you read books, read them all not just from one position. Educate yourself...

[chicagoan]

Did i just see a reference to Poland on that last page ? You subscribe to the opinion for the poles to return property to the germans ? This author is a retard....

[TrueMacedonian]

How do I feel about Pangiote Dimitras ? Well, he has an opinion and the fact that he can express his opinion on international public channels without having assassination attempts on his life just goes to show how Greece in not a fascist state...unlike some other countries.

Also, i did not go off topic...it was a personal response to George. You apparantly missed the part when I went BACK on topic replying to Sovius. Also, this imposter - dead race comments are not helping your case. When you read books, read them all not just from one position. Educate yourself...

Yes education is key for everyone to understand the truth. Here's what happens when you write a book about the Macedonian minority;

[TrueMacedonian]

Did i just see a reference to Poland on that last page ? You subscribe to the opinion for the poles to return property to the germans ? This author is a retard....

I recommend buying the book. Seeing as your a chica from the windy city then you should have all the access in the world to pick up Dr.Day's book.

[chicagoan]

TM, pls man...whenever you read a book with hostile, insulting comments towards an ethnic group. Its no longer objective.

Its meant to sell. Probably some pissed off brit that got screwed on a greek holiday. Or his wife for that matter...

[George S.]

chicago man here's your chance to tell us what you know.We are all ears.

[Risto the Great]

JNow as far as your question you posed to me about how i feel about the macedonian minority, i will say this...

According to the times almanac on this forums home page, there is a 1.8% macedonian population in Greece. First off, You tell me how that justifies a minority. Secondly, These ppl even have a political party that represents them. And yet macedonians in Greece vote for other parties not the rainbow one. They only get like 3000 votes each time.

You being spoonfed BS on a huge scale and the fact that you say the macedonian language is prohibited is indictive of how misinformed you really are. You think greek ppl give a shit if you talk macedonian in public ? Like i told George...Go, Travel...Talk to ppl. Then make a conclusion.

1.8% of a population certainly justifies a minority. Further, it begs the question how this minority has changed over time. Are you really going to descend into the stupidity of an argument about correlating Vinozito votes with population statistics in Greece? Thanks for yet another "unique" insight into the Greek mind.

chicago, I have traveled. I have been to Greece 4 times in the last 5 years. I trust my instincts. When people talk to me behind closed doors and talk to me about matters that are disgustingly harmless it angers me. You clearly have not traveled much because, if you were Macedonian, you would be aware of these issues. Why are these issues disgustingly harmless? Well, because in Australia it would be embarrassing to even have the problems the Macedonians in Greece face on a daily basis.

Why don't you tell me how the Macedonian language is encouraged in Greece? If these people are "Slavophone Greeks" then surely they represent a very exciting and unique aspect of Greek culture. So unique that they deserve preservation. Again, tell me how it is encouraged. You can't ... but come here as an apologist who believes a reasonable compromise would be anything which denies the Macedonian ethnicity. I know, it is only a gross violation of human rights to you which is clearly no reason to cease pursuing such stupidities. But hey, you are a real Greek.

You seem to like Polish people. Why was that Polish cultural centre denied in Greece? What was the reason again? I am trying to think of the real reason yet all I come up with is the fact that that the modern Greek political will is simply fueled by racism. Yeah, that's it.

[chicagoan]

1.8% of a population certainly justifies a minority. Further, it begs the question how this minority has changed over time. Are you really going to descend into the stupidity of an argument about correlating Vinozito votes with population statistics in Greece? Thanks for yet another "unique" insight into the Greek mind.

chicago, I have traveled. I have been to Greece 4 times in the last 5 years. I trust my instincts. When people talk to me behind closed doors and talk to me about matters that are disgustingly harmless it angers me. You clearly have not traveled much because, if you were Macedonian, you would be aware of these issues. Why are these issues disgustingly harmless? Well, because in Australia it would be embarrassing to even have the problems the Macedonians in Greece face on a daily basis.

Why don't you tell me how the Macedonian language is encouraged in Greece? If these people are "Slavophone Greeks" then surely they represent a very exciting and unique aspect of Greek culture. So unique that they deserve preservation. Again, tell me how it is encouraged. You can't ... but come here as an apologist who believes a reasonable compromise would be anything which denies the Macedonian ethnicity. I know, it is only a gross violation of human rights to you which is clearly no reason to cease pursuing such stupidities. But hey, you are a real Greek.

You seem to like Polish people. Why was that Polish cultural centre denied in Greece? What was the reason again? I am trying to think of the real reason yet all I come up with is the fact that that the modern Greek political will is simply fueled by racism. Yeah, that's it.

^^^Ok...I can work with this.

As an American living a number of yrs in Greece I can tell you of how many times I got pissed off on the most trivial issues over here. But its not because greek ppl are some sort of evil demons planning your demise although it might feel like it sometimes. One might travel to the government agencies to know the feeling I went through hell to get greek citizenship and I am from greek background. Its not racist..its just beuacratic. Or the very relaxed lifestyle ppl have over here. They definitly dont have the american, australian or british work ethic.

Now...didnt mean to go off topic, but i feel this is relevent to what you are saying. Also, why should Greece encourage seperatism ? I dont get it...you want the govt to support a minority that feels it got shafted through history ? I can assure you if the climate was better between our two nations there would be absolutly ZERO problems in macedonia. Unfortunatly the past 18 yrs hasnt helped them out. Why dont you ask them how they were under Yugoslavia though ?

I dont see how slavo-phone greeks can be upsetting. I think its more accurate since you yourselves say have nothing to do with slavs.

Greek ppl dont like to be told what to do. When somebody tries to shove something down their throat...its not going to turn out well. But if you approach the subject in a non-hostile way. You can pretty much get away with anything over here.

[TrueMacedonian]

Here's something interesting about how the Poles helped modern "greeks" forcibly Hellenize the Macedonians;

http://src-h.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/publictn/acta/16/alfred/alfred.html

Minority Rights Abuse in Communist Poland and Inherited Issues
Alfred F. Majewicz, Tomasz Wicherkiewicz

1.4. Polonization of proper names (personal and geographical).
This procedure was applied very extensively in relation to representatives of various ethnic groups. That German place names on formerly German "recovered lands" were Polonized can be understandable, acceptable, even obvious, but also here cases of abuse can be found. One such case concerned the Czech place Husinec in Lower Silesia (derived from the name of the famous Czech historical and religious figure Jan Hus), used in this form even by the Germans, which after the War was by the Polish administration changed into Geţsiniec (meaning "geese pen"; husa is incidentally the Czech word for "goose"); this was by the Czechs regarded as act of profanation of the name of their eminent compatriot.
Polonization of place names in the Biaystok region continues practically uninterruptedly (since the 19th century) till these days, predominantly through phonetic alternations which, however, usually distort the original etymological ties. These changes are in principle not announced, contrary to law, in official law publications. In 1983 Byelorussian circles initiated a wave of protests to stop the procedure.
Massive place name replacement esp. in South-Eastern Poland took place in mid 1970s on political (pro-Soviet) grounds; former names started reappearing on maps only quite recently (cf. below).
Marginally, it can be noted here that Polish administration supported the Greek refugees in Poland in forcible Hellenization of personal names of Aegean Macedonians, representatives of whom came to Poland together with the Greeks (in Greece, Aegean Macedonians have also been persecuted as ethnic minority).

1.5. Educational policy was also ground for persecution and minority rights abuses, although positive effects must also be acknowledged. We described this problem more detailedly elsewhere (cf. Majewicz & Wicherkiewicz, 1990); here a few examples can suffice as illustration. One such example is a long-standing constant denial to positively meet the demand for the introduction of obligatory courses of the Byelorussian language into schools and some, even limited, official bilingualism in the Biaystok region.
Another, similar, example is the official silence or outright rejection in response to demands for region-oriented education for Kashubians that would include lessons in the Kashubian vernacular. The silence was broken only in 1991 with the foundation of the first Kashubian secondary school in the town of Brusy (also in 1991 the first Kashubian primary school was founded in the village of Godnica).
Schooling for certain groups was limited (such is the case of the already mentioned Macedonians), for many was unavailable, on varying grounds. In the case of Lithuanian institutionalized education in Poland, numerous facts of Soviet interference have to be mentioned.

1.7.....Polish authorities in close cooperation with the Organization of Political Refugees from Greece imposed limitations upon the schooling for Macedonians and successfully prevented them from creating their own organization which could be finally founded and officially recognized as late as 1989. There were also obstacles in access to literature in Macedonian and the Macedonian version of the Greek-language paper Dimokratis ceased to appear in the 1960s.


It seems the Poles are some sort of "Philhellenes" I take it.

[Risto the Great]

^^^Ok...I can work with this.

And yet ... you did not.

Lets go with baby steps chicago, if I was to interpret your responses as anything but a Greek apologist approach to justification of racism, then I would simply say it is shallow meaningless crap.

Can't open a Polish cultural centre? .... APOLOGIST: Greeks don't like being told what to do.

Slavophone Greeks? .... APOLOGIST:Perfectly acceptable, they are Greeks but we will not encourage separatism.

You're either really dumb or simply trying to defend really stupid arguments. As a means of consolation, I do not think you are really dumb.