Origins of Albanian language and ethnos

[TrueMacedonian]

In light of current flag burnings in and around Macedonia I think it would be appropriate to expose the common myths of Albanians.


Albanian identities: myth and history By Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Bernd Jürgen Fischer

[Soldier of Macedon]

Funny stuff, but not suprising.

[TrueMacedonian]

I didn't bother underlining anything in this text. All of it is damaging to the Albanian myth of Illyrian descent.

[Soldier of Macedon]

From the below thread:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=963&highlight=wilkes&page=2

John Wilkes - The Illyrians, 1992.

The first detailed account of the ancient Illyrians appeared in the Albanesische Studien of J.G von Hahn, published at Jena in 1854, in which the author advanced the proposition that modern Albanians were descended from ancient Illyrians.

And something from our member Napoleon on the same thread, further to the creator of the Illyro-Albanian myth:

Its ironic that J.G von Hahn (Johann Georg von Hahn) was an Austrian diplomat at the time of making his proposition that the Albanians were descended from the ancient Illyrians. This is significant because at that time the Croatians and Slovenians were going through a period of national awakening which entailed demanding autonomy within the Austro-Hungarian empire. The movement was known as the Illyrian Movement.

The Austrian response was simple, while Austrian scholars were busy proposing that the Albanians were descended from the ancient Illyrians (which became official Austrian state policy) they also began propagating the theory that the Croatians and Slovenians were just merely nomadic 'Slavs', the product of a 6th century migration and therefore they didn't really 'own' the lands they came to settle anyway. The Austrian officials backed up this policy by making all reference to the word 'Illyria' or 'Illyrians' a death penalty offence in Slovenia and Croatia.

I would like to see how many examples there are of Albanians claiming to be Illyrians, or people claiming Albanians to be Illyrians, prior to 1854. Perhaps some of our Albanian members who periodically visit the forum can answer this for us.

[TrueMacedonian]

The Skanderbeg Myth


page 41

[Risto the Great]

That is a thought provoking piece of text from a 19th century nationalism perspective. Ethnic/linguistic boundaries blurred, assimilation, conceptual ambiguity. The reality is that all modern nations created out of the Balkan pool had varying degrees of these issues.

And if we extend this further to the rest of Europe, I am positive many other nations are still suffering from this un-natural state. The Albanians deserve their modern existence like everyone else, but they are heading down the Greek path of delusion to their detriment. Nobody aside from Nazi Germany and Uncle Woodrow (maybe cousin Clinton) has had much of a soft spot for the Albanians.

[TrueMacedonian]

I agree with you Risto. And this is where Macedonia stands apart from the rest of her neighbors. No Westerner came into Macedonia with a little book of classics written in Germany and translated to either English or French and told the population that they were descendents of the ancient Macedonians.
No Westerner influenced Pulevski's writings as far as I know.
And the population held on to a religious identity - be it Christian, Jew, or Muslim - the longest. Today Macedonia's neighbors actually think that just because modern nationalism came late into Macedonia that the Macedonians do not exist or that early dibs on land and people were ok. No. This wasn't a game of speed or a game of whos dick is bigger than whos. The overall majority enjoyed the one common identity that for centuries they have held on to and it shows in how many Monasteries are strewn all over Macedonia. And that is a Christian identity.
Albanians do have a right to their identity. And they have every right to respect the ancient Illyrians that once inhabited that land. However it's just not possible,plausible, or feasible that these are the direct descendents of the ancient Illyrians who's language (remind you of someone already) has survived millenias.

[TrueMacedonian]

This is taken from a footnote I found relevant to this topic.



Between morality and the law: corruption, anthropology and comparative society By Italo Pardo page 82.

[Astrit]

Albanians do have a right to their identity. And they have every right to respect the ancient Illyrians that once inhabited that land. However it's just not possible,plausible, or feasible that these are the direct descendents of the ancient Illyrians who's language (remind you of someone already) has survived millenias.

Who's descendants are the Albanians? I am interested in finding out your point of view.

[Risto the Great]

Astrit, do you believe Ghegs and Tosks descended from the same people?

[Astrit]

Astrit, do you believe Ghegs and Tosks descended from the same people?

Yes, without a doubt but they have evolved in different ways.
Nevertheless they have mare similarities than differences.

[Risto the Great]

What do you feel caused them to evolve differently?

[Astrit]

What do you feel caused them to evolve differently?

I will name a few among many reasons


Ghegs(Northerners) were predominately Catholic and supported Rome while Tosks(Southerners) were predominantly Orthodox and felt closer to the Eastern Roman Empire favoring Constantinople.


Southerners lost their tribal society earlier than Northern Albanians.


South and central Albania was exposed to more of the outside world because of the coastline, warmer climate.... While the north was more isolated due to it's harsh mountains. Which led to Ghegs becoming herders while Tosks became farmers, merchants...


When Albanians were conquered by the Ottomans it complicated the situation even further. Most Ghegs became Sunni Muslims, while several tribes fled in isolated mountain areas where they continued practicing Catholicism. The majority Tosks remained Orthodox those that did converted to Islam did not choose to become Sunni but rather Bektashi's which most other Muslims would likely consider infidels because of their Christian in this case specifically Orthodox and pagan influence.


More contemporary causes of the rift would be communism. Most communist officials including the head of the party Enver were Tosks. It is no secret that they favored southerners while oppressing the north more so than any other area. Gheg culture suffered during communism while it's Tosk counterpart flourished. More money was poured building the infrastructure of cities in south and central Albania then the north.


From the 1990's onward Tosks favor the successor to the Communist party the Socialist Party PS, while Ghegs generally lean toward the Democratic Party or PD. There is still to the lesser extent some rivalry but we are still united by our Albanian identity above all else.

[TrueMacedonian]

Who's descendants are the Albanians? I am interested in finding out your point of view.

Who wouldn't be the ancestors of todays Albanian is the real question that should be asked. Slavs, Turks, Vlachs, Arabs, etc. And it very well may be possible that alot of your descendents are from the Caucauses. If I ask Tito for his time machine maybe we can find out together.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I would like to see how many examples there are of Albanians claiming to be Illyrians, or people claiming Albanians to be Illyrians, prior to 1854. Perhaps some of our Albanian members who periodically visit the forum can answer this for us.

Astrit, can you answer this question?