Origins of Albanian language and ethnos

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  • Frank
    Banned
    • Mar 2010
    • 687

    #91
    If the modern Greeks and Albanians can claim lineage to the ancients and declare it themselves then why are the modern Macedonians denied the same

    That is all I got to say.

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13675

      #92
      Frank, that much is obvious and we all agree, but let's keep the thread for discussion on the topic mate.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Toska
        Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 137

        #93
        what about Croatians/Bosnians/Serbs calling themselves Illirski and their language Illirski Jazik, ive seen this in a few 16th century books.

        Comment

        • Toska
          Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 137

          #94


          In 19th century Europe, liberalism and nationalism were ideologies which came to the forefront of political culture. In Eastern Europe, where the Habsburg Empire had long asserted control over a variety of ethnic and cultural groups, nationalism appeared in a standard format. The beginning of the 19th century "was the period when the smaller, mostly Slavic nationalities of the empire - Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Ukrainians - remembered their historical traditions, revived their native tongues as literary languages, reappropriated their traditions and folklore, in short reasserted their existence as nations."[2] This revival of national heritage encompasses the Illyrian Movement in Croatia.

          Comment

          • Toska
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 137

            #95
            Count George Brankovic (1645-1711), self-proclaimed 'Despot of Illyria'


            Count George Brankovic has proclaimed himself 'Despot of Illyria', a state that would include all 'Illyrian, Thracian, Moesian and other Eastern lands, the lands of St Sava, Herzegovina, Montenegro, Bosnia, Sirmia and other lands of Hungarian Kingdom'.

            "After he had got a certificate from Patriarch Arsenie, which confirmed his descent of Serbain Despot family Brankovic, in order to proclaim himself despot of independent Illyrian state under the name of Despot George Brankovic II, he informed Emperor Leopold I about the idea. His plans were declined by the Austrian Court and he was given the title of count instead.

            "After proclaiming the invitation to the Serbian people to follow him as their despot, and to start a struggle for freedom against the Turks, he was captured in Kladovo in 1689 by Austrian authorities and held captive until he died in 1711."

            DUŠAN J. POPOVIĆ, Велика сеоба Срба 1690. (Great Migration of Serbs in 1690), Belgrade 1954.
            STEFAN ČAKIĆ, Велика сеоба Срба 1689/90 и патријарх Арсеније III Црнојевић (Great Migration of Serbs in 1689/90 and Patriarch Arsenie III Crnojevic, Novi Sad 1990.

            -----------

            Cardinal Leopold Kollonich (1631-1707), Minister of State and Privy imperial councilor, names the arrived Serbs as 'Illyrians or Rascians' in 1706:

            Cardinal Kollonich wrote to Emperor Leopold I in 1706 that the Privileges allowing the freedom of Orthodox religion cannot be allowed, and that Serbs cannot be allowed to remain in their "schismatic" faith, and continues : "... it has to be done in a quiet and silent way so that all these Illyrian or Rascian people can be brought to union with Roman Church, from which it merely differs at all."

            RADOSLAV M. GRUJIĆ, Како се поступало са српским молбама на двору цесара Австријског последње године живота патријарха Арсенија III Црнојевића (The way Serbian pledges were treated on the Court of Austrian Caesar during the last year of life of Patriarch Arsenie III Crnojevic), Novi Sad 1906.

            --------------

            Serbian national Privileges in Habsburg Monarchy were titled to
            'Illyrian nation'


            Front page of the first printed version of Serbian Privileges in 1715, Vienna:

            PRIVILEGIA
            PER
            DIVOS
            IMPERATORES
            LEOPOLDUM
            ET
            JOSEPHUM
            GLORIOSISSIMĆ REMINISCENTIĆ
            NEC NON
            MODERNAM REGNANTEM
            MAJESTATEM,
            CAROLUM VI.
            INCLYTĆ
            NATIONI ILLYRICĆ

            'ILLYRIO SERBICA 1683-1715 (1723)' papers, Haus, Hof u. Staat. Archiv Wien
            STEFAN ČAKIĆ, Велика сеоба Срба 1689/90 и патријарх Арсеније III Црнојевић (Great Migration of Serbs in 1689/90 and Patriarch Arsenie III Crnojevic), Novi Sad 1990.

            -----------

            Sava Tekelija (also: Tököli Száva, 1761-1841)
            the leader of Illyrian political thought of his time


            In 1804 Sava Tekelija sent a Memorandum to Emperor Napoleon I, proposing the creation of a vast Illyran Kingdom - a large South Slav state that would, under the auspices of France, encompass the most of the Serb and Slav-inhabited Balkan regions. A year later, Tekelija sent a similar, slightly revised project to the Habsburg Emperor Francis I.

            S. TEKELIJA, Opisanije života (Biography), Beograd: Prosveta 1966, pp. 171-187, 379-396.

            ---------------

            This one was very interesting.....

            When they, supported by Europe, unite into a large Illyrian Kingdom that would join together Bosnia, Bulgaria, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slovenia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Albania, Dubrovnik and Serb-inhabited areas of Hungary with Serbia, this kingdom will be a powerful barrier against those powers, namely Austria and Russia, that would try to establish their domination in the Balkans. However, in a similar memorandum submitted to Emperor Franz I in 1805, Count Tekelija mentioned only Russia as a potential threat to the Balkans.

            S. GAVRILOVIĆ, Vojvodina i Srbija u vreme prvog srpskog ustanka (Vojvodina and Serbia during the Serbian Uprising I), Novi Sad: Institut za istoriju 1974 pp.20-24.

            -------

            Official languages of Dukedom Serbia and Tamis Banat in 1849


            When Dukedom (Vojvodina) of Serbia and Tamis Banat was established in 1849, Serbian language, which became official beside German, was named 'Illyrian':

            The two official languages of the province were German and "Illyrian" (what would become Serbo-Croatian).

            Wikipedia, Vojvodina of Serbia and Tamiš Banat -> en.wikipedia.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vojvodi...mi%C5%A1_Banat)

            Comment

            • Epirot
              Member
              • Mar 2010
              • 399

              #96
              Originally posted by Toska View Post
              what about Croatians/Bosnians/Serbs calling themselves Illirski and their language Illirski Jazik, ive seen this in a few 16th century books.
              Hi Toska,

              Indeed there are documents that do provide Croatians/Bosnians/Serbs calling themselves Illirski or their language Illirski Jazik but we must search what was the essence of 'Illirski' at that time!? The Slavs were labeled Illyrian not because they were ethnically Illyrians but because they used to live in territories of ILLYRICUM (you see it's an administrative term not ethnic one). In other cases (I am talking for the Slavs) they were attributed as Illyrians because the Christianism of Western Balkan was called 'Illyrian' as was case later with the Greek Christianism. I hope you get what I am attempting to explain...

              Between 600 and 650 the main body of the immigrants occupied Illyria (see Servia: History; and Slavs). It consisted of Croats and Serbs, two groups of tribes who spoke a single language and were so closely related that the origin of the distinction between them is obscure. The Croats settled in the western half of Illyria, the Serbs in the eastern; thus the former came gradually under the influence of Italy and Roman Catholicism, the latter under the influence of Byzantium and the Greek Church. Hence the distinction between them became a marked difference of civilization and creed, which has always tended to keep the Illyrian Slavs politically disunited.

              The Croats and Serbs rapidly absorbed most of the Latinized Illyrians. But the wealthy and powerful city-states on the coast were strong enough to maintain their independence and their distinctively Italian character. Other Roman provincials took refuge in the mountains of the interior; these Mavrovlachi, as they were called (see Dalmatia: Population; and Vlachs), preserved their language and nationality for many centuries. The Illyrian tribes which had withstood the attraction of Roman civilization remained unconquered among the mountains of Albania and were never Slavonized. With these exceptions Illyria became entirely Serbo-Croatian in population, language and culture.

              http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/.../Illyria*.html
              Conclusions:

              1) Slavs were stereotyped as Illyrian in administrative manner not ethnic one
              2) Slavs were stereotyped as Illyrian because the churches of western Balkan makes places in dioceses of Illyricum.

              Here I'd like to post thoughts of one of the best living authorities on Illyrians, Alexander Stipceviç:

              In the first half of the 19th century, the title Illyrian acquired a clear political function among the Croats. The leaders of the Croatian national movement called themselves "Illyrians" (Ilirci). Moreover, the theory of the Illyrian origin of the Croats was at this time embodied in academic form by Ljudevit Gaj, the greatest ideologue of the national movement. It was hi who published a book entitled "Who Were the Old Illyrians?"(3) This treated the question from a historical angle, but which political aims. Gay knew full well that any theory of a direct descent of today’s Croats from the old Illyrians was somehow an exaggeration. However, he believed that the name Illyrian would be the cement binding together the South Slavs in a new cultural and economic entity and a powerful political alliance that could confront the age-old enemies of the South Slav peoples.

              The Illyrian ideology of the Croatian national movement was leavened with same doubtful ideas. It was not by chance that, after initial enthusiasm, critics of the idea grasped its weak points and easly refuted Gaj’s basic thesis of the South Slavs.

              [...]As time passed, the idea of a direct link between the Illyrians and the Croats was gradually abandoned. It was the writer and philologist Bogoslav Sulek who delivered the final blow to the theory of the Illyrian origin of the South Slavs. In 1844, he published a treatise on the idea that the South Slavs could not be considered the direct descendants of the ancient Illyrians, but that the Slavs living in the western part of the Balkan peninsula were the result of a long and complicated ethnogenetic process involving the Illyrians but also the Romans, Celts, Goths, and, finally, the Slavs.

              http://www.alb-net.com/illyrians.htm
              IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13675

                #97
                Originally posted by Epirot
                That's untrue. Albanians claimed Illyrian (and sometimes Epirotic) parentage much early than 19th century. Kara Mahmud Bushati (of Bushatlli dynasty - a noble northern Albanian family: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_Mahmud_Bushati) established a kind of alliance between Albanian local lords of Northern Albania, Montenegro and Hercegovina. It was called 'Illyrian confederacy' though it was short-lived for many objective reason.
                According to the link Bushati was alive during the second half of the 18th century, around the same time that the German writer first proposed the idea of an Illyrian connection for the Albanians. These two events may or may not be related. However, there is not a single citation or source in the Wikipedia link to the article. Is there any evidence that Bushati claimed to be an Illyrian himself, which is recorded in documents and such? Any record of an 'Illyrian confederacy'? The name wouldn't suprise me too much in this regard, as the majority of Bushati's realm appears to be Montenegrin and Bosnian rather than Albanian. We both know that the former, along with the Serbs and particularly the Croats, fashioned an Illyrian tradition and heritage that is recorded in a number of medieval documents.
                .......many Byzantine chroniclers attributed an Illyrian origin for Albanians.
                Which writers? Can you cite the sources and quotations?

                In my opinion, from what I have seen, references to an Epirot/Albanian connection appear more frequent than those with Illyrians. Would you agree? What does Barletti say?
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • Big Bad Sven
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 1528

                  #98
                  In his book, "The Illyrians", John Wilkes states on pg: 219:

                  "NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS."

                  Wilkes, having published this work in the early 90s ruined the earlier accepted theory that Albanians were the descendants of the Illyrians. Wilkes is the foremost authority on Illyrians in the world today. An anthropologist, archeologist, a published historian and Professor of History whose familiarity with Balkan archeology is first hand, Wilkes' conclusions lead to the conclusion that the modern descendants of the Illyrians may in fact lie in Bosnia, Serbia and Dalmatia.

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13675

                    #99
                    Originally posted by Epirot
                    The Slavs were labeled Illyrian not because they were ethnically Illyrians but because they used to live in territories of ILLYRICUM (you see it's an administrative term not ethnic one).
                    Illyricum, as a Roman administrative unit, disappeared centuries before relevant Latin and German documents were making reference to the 'Slavs' as Illyrians. Furthermore, the Illyrian name was too broad, even in antiquity, to have been a single 'ethnic' designate, although I do believe that most Illyrians were of the same linguistic family. So the reason you have provided does not validate the point you're trying to make. If the 'Slavs' were labelled Illyrians due to the territories they lived in, can you provide other examples of people that lived in the same area and during the same period being labelled Illyrians? Can you provide examples of the same people, be they Albanian, Vlach or other, having their language known as Illyrian?
                    In other cases (I am talking for the Slavs) they were attributed as Illyrians because the Christianism of Western Balkan was called 'Illyrian' as was case later with the Greek Christianism. I hope you get what I am attempting to explain...
                    Are you implying that the Illyrian name was a synonym for 'West Balkan Christians'? If so, in what era was this the case? Can you clarify and corroborate with some examples and sources?
                    The Illyrian tribes which had withstood the attraction of Roman civilization remained unconquered among the mountains of Albania and were never Slavonized.
                    That is a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. Furthermore, it goes against the grain of your own historical reality - how can Albanians remain untouched by both Romans and 'Slavs' yet the majority of the Albanian language consists of words foreign to the native Albanian tongue? How do you think this came about?
                    It was the writer and philologist Bogoslav Sulek who delivered the final blow to the theory of the Illyrian origin of the South Slavs. In 1844, he published a treatise on the idea that the South Slavs could not be considered the direct descendants of the ancient Illyrians, but that the Slavs living in the western part of the Balkan peninsula were the result of a long and complicated ethnogenetic process involving the Illyrians but also the Romans, Celts, Goths, and, finally, the Slavs.

                    http://www.alb-net.com/illyrians.htm
                    What do you consider the 'final blow' in the above general opinion of Sulek? I don't see how the underlined parts diminish the Illyrian heritage of Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Montenegrins and Bosnians. Hardly a 'final blow' in my opinion, in fact, it is realistic and accepting of historical reality, if read logically and in proper context.

                    Do you think Celts, Goths, etc overlooked the region of today's Albania? Do you think the Albanian ethnos didn't undergo its own ethnogenetic process? There is more than one interpretation of 'direct' descent, what exactly do you consider it as?
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • makedonin
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1668

                      Here is a Illyrian-German and German-Illyrian dictionary.

                      Here is part of the introduction of the above mentioned dictionary!

                      Introduction

                      Illirian language is spoken as mother tongue not only in Austria, but also in other foreighn conuntries, specially in the Turkish countries, where we find more than fife milion people who use the language as mother toungue.

                      In non other language of any people we don't finde more dialectics that are easy comprehendable between each other, as we find in the Illyrian.

                      The ancient name Illyricum finds its beginning somewhere about 13th Centur BC. The Illyrian language is today spoken in all those countries that are listed on the Cover (Croatia, Slavonia, Srem, Dalmatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Albania, Dubrovnik, Montenegro, Herzegovina, Banat, Ungaria etc.) with very small variation in the dialects.

                      Apart from the mentioned countries and provinces, the there are languages who has their beginning in the Illyrian language, which are found in Kraina, Primoria, Czechia, Moravia, Slezia, Poland and Russia.

                      They are all of the Illyrian stock, speak the one and the same basis of the same language, and are differable only in the dialects.
                      It at least gives a picture of what they meant by Illyrian language.
                      Last edited by makedonin; 07-28-2010, 06:12 AM.
                      To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                      Comment

                      • Frank
                        Banned
                        • Mar 2010
                        • 687

                        Is it a mere coincedence that a aptly named Illyrian language is spoken amogst most Slavic speaking Nations

                        The doesnt work out well for Albanian Nationlism

                        Comment

                        • Epirot
                          Member
                          • Mar 2010
                          • 399

                          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                          According to the link Bushati was alive during the second half of the 18th century, around the same time that the German writer first proposed the idea of an Illyrian connection for the Albanians. These two events may or may not be related.
                          They aren't related since Bushati has no clue what a German historian (like Thumman) did write at the same time.

                          Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

                          However, there is not a single citation or source in the Wikipedia link to the article. Is there any evidence that Bushati claimed to be an Illyrian himself, which is recorded in documents and such? Any record of an 'Illyrian confederacy'?
                          I brought up a link of Wiki in order to present his biography. Here is an article regarding Illyrian confederacy orchestrated by Bushati:



                          I guess you can use 'Google translator' for a translation since in its current form the article is in Albanian.

                          Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

                          The name wouldn't suprise me too much in this regard, as the majority of Bushati's realm appears to be Montenegrin and Bosnian rather than Albanian. We both know that the former, along with the Serbs and particularly the Croats, fashioned an Illyrian tradition and heritage that is recorded in a number of medieval documents.
                          You're right when you say that most of Bushati's realm encompassed what is today Montenegro and a little strip of Southern Bosnia.

                          By the early fourteenth century there are also signs of a long-established Albanian presence in the mountains of Montenegro, and as far north as the Ragusan hinterland.

                          KOSOVO A SHORT HISTORY, Noel Malcolm, 1999, pg. 28
                          The Gheghides, who boast of having numbered among them such a hero as Scanderbeg, unite, according to the learned topographer of Greece (Colonel Leake), “the cruelty of the Albanian to the dulness of the Bulgarian.” They have long enjoyed a greater share of independence, under the Pashas of Scodra, than any other of the Albanian tribes. They are equally good soldiers with the latter, and have preserved more of their natural stubbornness, from the fact of their having been less often employed as such by the Turks. Their country extends from the frontier of the Austrian territory of Cattaro round the Montenegro, which may be considered an independent state; and, following the ridges which unite it to Mount Scardus, it reaches the Herzegovina, while it is bounded on the south by the river Drino. Scutari, or Scodra, is their chief town, and Dulcigno, Alessio, and Durazzo belong to them.

                          1848
                          James Henry Skeene:
                          The Albanians

                          http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts19/AH1848_2.html
                          ...Skeene emphasized that northern Albanian boundaries reaches as far as Hercegovina.

                          M.E. Durham (1863-1944), who travelled widely in Albania and Montenegro and devoted much time to the study of Montenegrin and Albanian tribes, came to the conclusion that the Montenegrin is not so much a Slav as a Slavized descendant of the older inhabitants, i.e., of Vlachs, and Albanians (see Some Tribal Origins, Laws, and Customs in the Balkans, London, 1928, PP. 13-59).

                          That the Montenegrin tribes were originally Albanian tribes was already indicated by K. Jirecek, "Albanien in der Vergangenheit," Illyrisch-Albanische Forschungen, (Munchen und Leipzig 1916, p. 69).

                          The marked distinction between the Serbs and the Montenegrins was pointed out by Prof. Savo Birkovic in a recent work: 0 postanku i rasvoju Crnogorske nacje, Graficki Zavod, Titograd, 1980.
                          http://www.home.no/dukagjin/Footnotes.html
                          So not in the all cases when Byzantine authors recorded Illyrians in Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro were referencing to Slavs since the above proofs affirms strongly for a well-established presence of Albanians in these regions. I am going to say that Illyrian term might been used to denote the Albanians.

                          Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

                          Which writers? Can you cite the sources and quotations?
                          For the moment I haven't the quotes since I am not writing from my house. I promise that I'll post here some Byzantine sources regarding Albanians as Illyrians. In the following passage are thoughts of Fallmerayer (who was based entirely on Byzantine chroniclers):

                          For not a single drop of real pure Hellenic blood flows in the veins of the Chrisitian population of modern Greece. A terrific hurricane has dispersed throughout the space between the Ister and most distant corner of the Peloponnesus a new tribe akin to the great Slavonic race. The Scythian Slavs, the Illyrian Arnauts, children of Northern lands, the blood relations of the Serbs and Bulgars, the Dalmatians and Moscovites – those are the people whom we call Greeks at present…

                          History of the Peninsula of Morea in the Middle Ages

                          http://books.google.com/books?id=RtM...page&q&f=false
                          Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

                          In my opinion, from what I have seen, references to an Epirot/Albanian connection appear more frequent than those with Illyrians. Would you agree? What does Barletti say?
                          It's true that Medieval sources linked Albanians more with Epirots rathern than Illyrians. As you said Barletti used very often 'Epirus' to describe Albania and 'Epirots' for Albanians. But this does not reject Illyrians as forefathers of Albanians because Epirots were nothing else but a close cognates of Illyrians.
                          Last edited by Epirot; 07-28-2010, 09:21 AM.
                          IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                          Comment

                          • Epirot
                            Member
                            • Mar 2010
                            • 399

                            Being linked with Epirots, as I said before, do not reject our Illyrian lineage because Epirots are nothing but southern Illyrian group of tribes. Here I'd like to present a citation from Plutarch who marks a linguistic distinction between Epirots and Greeks.

                            Of the Thesprotians and Molossians after the great inundation, the first king, according to some historians, was Phaethon, one of those who came into Epirus with Pelasgus. Others tell us that Deucalion and Pyrrha, having set up the worship of Jupiter at Dodona, settled there among the Molossians. In after time, Neoptolemus, Achilles's son, planting a colony, possessed these parts himself, and left a succession of kings, who, after him, was named Pyrrhidae, as he in his youth was called Pyrrhus, and of his legitimate children, one was born of Lanassa, daughter of Cleodaeus, Hyllus's son, had also that name. From him Achilles came to have divine honours in Epirus,under the name of Aspetus, in the language of the country. After these first kings, those of the following intervening times becoming barbarous, and insignificant both in their power and their lives, Tharrhypas is said to have been the first who, by introducing Greek manners and learning, and humane laws into his cities, left any fame of himself. Alcetas was the son of Tharrhypas, Arybas of Alcetas, and of Arybas and Troas his queen, Aeacides; he married Phthia, the daughter of Menon, the Thessalian, a man of note at the time of the Lamiac war, and of highest command in the confederate army next to Leosthenes. To Aeacides were born of Phthia, Deidamia and Troas, daughters, and Pyrrhus, a son.

                            http://www.greektexts.com/library/Pl...s/eng/824.html
                            a) Plutarch pointed out that king Tharrypas was the first who introduced 'Greek manners and learning'. Again I persist on the frequently asked question: If Epirus was the 'heart of Greece' mean that Epirotes were somehow the 'nucleus' of all Greeks. If Epirotes were being of 'central Greeks' then Plutarch would not say that Tharrypas introduced 'Greek learning' on Epirus? It does not make sense to introduce 'Greek manners and learning' in the centre of all Hellenes!

                            b) Again if Epirotes spoke any tongue close to the Greek, then Plutarch would not need to emphasize 'the language of the country' that mean obviously a entirely different language from Greek. Achilles himself never is related in 'Iliad' with the word 'Aspetos'. The only one who called Achilles as 'Aspetos' is Plutarch. The official etymology of 'Aspetos' related with 'unspeakable,unspeakably great,endless,' is not well-attested because it contains somehow some primaries logic mistakes. Plutarch said clearly that Achilles has divine status among Epirotes; if Epirotes honored someone as 'Divine' they could not attribute this 'divine status' to someone which is 'unspeakable'.

                            1. Aspetos = A + Spet(os); 'A' is the short trait of 'asht' (mean "is" in Alb.). Even in modern times, specifically in Gheg dialect is preserved a such trait short of 'Asht' in 'A'. What's about 'Spetos'. If we drop out the last suffix 'os' the word become on 'Spet' which is an earlier form of Alb. 'Shpejtë' mean 'fast, quick' because again in Gheg dialect we find an another variation from standard form of Albanian 'Shpejtë' in 'Shpetë'. Suma Summarum after this summarized explanation we come to the central point: Aspetos is transparently equivalent with Alb. 'A shpetë',
                            Aspetos = A shpetë mean 'He is fast/quickly'.



                            2. This version of explanation has a sufficient logic base since Homer like to use for Achilles the epithet as 'swift-footed' (podas ôkus), a clear indication of swiftness of every action of Achilles.

                            A characteristic of Homer's style is the use of epithets, as in "rosy-fingered" dawn or "swift-footed" Achilles. These epithets were metric stop-gaps as well as mnemonic devices for the aoidos (singer) — both, signs of the deep oral tradition that preceded the written codification of the Iliad and Odyssey.

                            Moreover, epithets in epic poetry from various Indo-European traditions may be traced to a common tradition going much deeper into prehistory. For example, the phrase approximating "everlasting glory" or "undying fame" can be found in the Homeric Greek kleos aphthiton and the Sanskrit śrávo ákşitam. They "were, in terms of historical linguistics, equivalent in phonology, accentuation, and quantity (syllable length). In other words, they are descendants from a fragment of poetic diction (reconstructable as Proto-Indo-European *klewos ņdhgwhitom) which was handed down in parallel over many centuries, in continually diverging forms, by generations of singers whose ultimate ancestors shared an archetypal repertoire of poetic formulae and narrative themes."[1]

                            A name plus an epithet constitute a formula which exactly fits the metric structure of the verse. The use of formulas is characteristic of ancient epic poetry.

                            Homer used epithets not merely to complete rhythm patterns. Epithets increase the meaning of each noun that they alter. Epithets can tell of the character’s origin, parentage, appearance or state, skill-set, position, or heroic quality. At the same time, he distinguishes between Homer’s two different types of epithets: the special and the generic. Special epithets are used exclusively for a particular character, while generic epithets are used repeatedly for a class of characters. Yet this distinction is not always clear; thus, the epithet “master of the war-cry” is used predominantly with Menelaus, yet on occasion also to describe Diomedes.[2]
                            Then answered him Achilles swift of foot: "Most noble son of Atreus, Agamemnon king of men, for the gifts, to give them as it beseemeth, if so thou wilt, or to withhold, is in thy choice. But now let us bethink us of battle with all speed; this is no time to dally here with subtleties, for a great work is yet undone. Once more must Achilles be seen in the forefront of the battle, laying waste with his brazen spear the battalions of the men of Troy. Thereof let each of you think as he fighteth with his man."



                            Alan Cameron raises two important conclusions:
                            i) 'Aspetos' is a patronym (as is it proofed by a fragmentary poem found on papayrus
                            ii) 'Aspetos' like Prometheus is a man's name

                            What's wrong with Greek explanation versions?

                            Finally, 'unspeakable,unspeakably great,endless' cannot be attested neither as patronym nor as man's name, because it does not make sense to have patronyms like this: 'unspeakable,unspeakably great,endless' or even worst as man's name.
                            Last edited by Epirot; 07-28-2010, 09:37 AM.
                            IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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                            • Epirot
                              Member
                              • Mar 2010
                              • 399

                              Illyrian culture is believed to have evolved from the Stone Age and to have manifested itself in the territory of Albania towardthe beginning of the Bronze Age, about 2000 BC. The Illyrians were not a uniform body of people but a conglomeration of many tribes that inhabited the western part of the Balkans, from what is now Slovenia in the northwest to and including the region of Epirus, which extends about halfway down the mainland of modern Greece. In general, Illyrians in the highlands of Albania were more isolated than those in the lowlands, and their culture evolved more slowly--a distinction that persisted throughout Albania's history.

                              Encyclopedia Britannica
                              Many tumuli (burial mounds) containing Illyrian objects made of bronze and iron were discovered at Glasinac (Bosnia), Koman (Albania), and other parts of southeastern Europe. At the height of their expansion the Illyrians extended their frontiers from the Danube River to the Gulf of Ambracia and from the Adriatic Sea to the Shar Mountains.

                              The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 1, 1987, pg. 212
                              At the height of its dominance in the region,Illyria extended from the Danube River to the Gulf of Ambracia on the Adriatic, to the Sar mountains.

                              Women rulers throughout the ages: an illustrated guide, Guida Myrl Jackson-Laufer - 1999, pg. 382
                              "Philip contracted an alliance with Neoptolemos, king of the Illyrian Molossians, and married his daughter Olympias in 357 B.C".

                              (~The McGraw-Hill encyclopedia of world biography~ pg.409)
                              I think that is enough to confirm the Illyrian ethnic essence of Epirots.
                              IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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                              • Epirot
                                Member
                                • Mar 2010
                                • 399

                                Originally posted by Big Bad Sven View Post
                                In his book, "The Illyrians", John Wilkes states on pg: 219:

                                "NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS."

                                Wilkes, having published this work in the early 90s ruined the earlier accepted theory that Albanians were the descendants of the Illyrians. Wilkes is the foremost authority on Illyrians in the world today. An anthropologist, archeologist, a published historian and Professor of History whose familiarity with Balkan archeology is first hand, Wilkes' conclusions lead to the conclusion that the modern descendants of the Illyrians may in fact lie in Bosnia, Serbia and Dalmatia.
                                Wilkes do not ruined the theory of Illyrian origin of Albanians. Citing just a truncated passage of Wilkes does not give any proof of generalizing his conceptions. Citing in such way (of Wilkes) I met in some "Greek" sites who proclaim the Hellenism of everything! For the sake of truth I shall cite another passages of the same author that affirm the opposite of your beloved quotes. Follow me:

                                The Albanian language which belongs to the Indo-European group, has a distinctive vocabulary, morphology and phonetic rules which have engaged the attention of many philologists, of whom the majority have confidently proclaimed its origin from ancient Illyrian'

                                J.Wilkes 'Illyrians' page 278
                                'It is not doubted whether or not Albs are indigenous, its whether they were directly from Albania or from some northern part. For instance, it is argued, that Albanians have their origins in Southern Serbia ' (Wilkes: 224
                                Let's turn for a while at your beloved quote:

                                NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS
                                The quote on modern Albanians being "short and dark skinned" is not his. It was taken from the book 'Skeletal evidence' of Alexander Stipcevic, page 262, published over thirty years ago (in 1977). Stipcevic himself claims that Albanians are the descendants of Illyrians !!!!

                                After all Wilkes isn't anthropologist or he hasn't make any specific research on the physical stature of Albanians. Instead of citing an inaccurate statement, it's time to ask from authorities on that matter.

                                'The stature of the Geghs is extremely variable geographically. the tribes which touch Montenegro have means of 173 cm, and 174 cm ... On the south side of the Drin the means fall to 169 cm, and continues to the level of 167 cm, in Mati and Mirdita...Almost all of the Geghs are light-skinned'.
                                (Coon 1939 http://www.snpa.nordish.net/chapter-XII13.htm)
                                .'At last I asked him on what he based his judgment, "Well" was the answer " look at my servant" The man turned out to be a characteristic Albanian - tall, handsome, and doubtless as honest and brave as his eyes were frank and fearless, while his whole bearing conveyed that suggestion of mingled courtesy and independence which makes the peculiar charm of his race' (BRAILSFORD 1903:223)
                                'Macedonia and its races' - http://kroraina.com/knigi/en/hb/hb_8_1.html

                                2. 'But here are men of distinction, tall, swarthy, proud in their carriage. These are Albanians with quilted white peticoats, black caps, silver-braced coats and a couple of revolvers stuck in the gridle.'
                                (FOSTER 1906:185) 'Pictures from the Balkans'
                                www.promacedonia.org/en/jf/jf_18.html
                                4. 'Do Albanians look like Serbs ?. No, The Serbs often have black or dark brown hair and are generally darker and more heavily built than Albanians. Their appearance is fairly typical of Southern Slavs. By contrast Kosovars look Celtic to a British eye. They have curly hair, which is often blonde or rust, and their skin tends to be very pale and covered in freckles. Their eyes are often green or blue and their built is much more slender than that of Serbs'.

                                MARCUS TANNER - 'INDEPENDENT' - 11 May 1999


                                5. 'It has been all the more painful to witness the suffering of the people of Kosovo because they look and live so much like us.

                                TOM UTLEY - 'DAILY TELEGRAPH' - 26 March 1999
                                IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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