Origins of Ancient Greece

[DraganOfStip]

Doesn't matter who he is,one can't judge only by reading a couple of sentences.There is enough material here to create an entire E-library,so before jumping to conclusions he should first study all of that and then develop an argument.But since he's Greek,I really doubt he'll spare time to see what he doesn't want to see.Maybe we should mail him all the material and if we're lucky a decade later,he'll go through it all and think about it.

[Louis]

N. Panamevris, George S.,

Actually the terms Greece/Greek are not exonyms. They come from the Greek tribe Graecii (Γραικοί) that had a major role in the Greek colonies of Southern Italy. (Of course the term does not mean black/dark; where on earth did you hear that?). Thus the term was first established in the Roman world and then in the west of middle Ages and Modern Times.

The term itself was also used in Greece but it was never really popular, it mostly came back to Greece from the West.

I was slightly surprised because I didn’t know Borza had such opinion on modern Macedonians.

[George S.]

Yes but greece was not a country until 1832 that is an undisputable fact.That's when the word greece came into real effect.I had a feeling that greece would not be happy with their name.That's why they may change it i hope it's not macedonia .They don't deserve such a name.Merely taking over someone elses name,flag etc identity theft.
Greece had various names in history danians,dorians,Achaeans,romaoi & then greece.So the west insisted on greece using it's "greece " name.
You compare that with the macedonian name it has allways existed since time immermorial.A name born unto itself for the macedonians.Greeks were short & black people macedonians were tall & fair. Macedon means mother's domain.Or Mother's kingdom.Nothing to do with greek domain.The two were completely unrelated.So what did the greek fakes do they tried to rewrite history with acts of omission or completely changing to say macedonians were greek.THere are a lot of textbooks from professors to make them change their mind a bit of carrot money was dangled in fron't of them.Need i remind that were talking millions of dollars spent not only on rewriting university books but journalists from newspapers about $150 million was spent to anyone who would write that the greekness of macedonia.Speaking with some of my ROM newspaper kournalists they too were offered the carrot nut they had the good sense to refuse.That's greece for you if they can buy their way out or bribe their way that is the waythey'll choose.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

I, can pick pano makedonian goats and their offspring out of thin air and when this malaka came in with his pants down around his ankles I just wanted to see what he was ready to expose .. very little in the end.

[George S.]

a pan mak malaka on the weed.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

a pan mak malaka on the weed.

george, its the same few morons (20) all over the web .. all lies and pan macedonian propaganda with the hopes some of the shit they throw sticks to something .. not here it wont.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=waXosXfQZVo

[George S.]

yeah they come on hoping to muddy the situation but of course not here.

[Carlin]

On another note George, I see u make reference to "greek" seafarers", in particular the word "greek". As I've been a long time reader here it's a common belief to the majority of members here that there is no such thing as a Greek or Greece as this country did not exist until 1832 & after. Now, Pythagoras was born in Samos (Aegean island) so how would most of u here refer to him if he's not a Greek as no such thing existed... I hope u can see why I am confused.

You are under the (false) impression that modern Greeks have an ethnic connection with ancient Greeks, or Hellenes to be more accurate and specific. This is what creates the "short circuit" in your mind and majority of modern Greeks - since you are connecting ancient worlds with modern society and political realities, especially of the last 200 years or so - and incorrectly believe that the "Hellenic nation" has always existed, without interruption, well into the 19th century until today. You shouldn't be blamed of course - the Greek government and educational system continue to teach and promote these beliefs on an official level.

So yes Pythagoras was a Hellene, even though no such country or polity ever existed, until the early 19th century (since Hellenes existed without doubt). Now, if you want to "connect" ethnically, spiritually and ideologically with Pythagoras and the (extinct) Hellenes that is your right and choice, even though it's irrational and a serious delusion to hold such a belief. In other words, there is no denying that Greek people, state, and nationality exist today, after almost 200 years of state and identity engineering.

As a result, please do not ask others to justify and prove their identity (i.e. their Macedonian national identity), even though it may be based on myths, legends, forgeries, and lies - since you yourself are an ethnic Greek today while your ancestors 200 years ago spoke various languages and dialects (Vlahika, Arvanitika, Slavika, among other lesser known languages) as their first language.

Please note, if you would like to quote L. Georgievski or K. Gligorov to make a 'certain point' I will quote Mr. T. Veremis and Mrs. T. Dragonas in kind.

[George S.]

How about their greek national hero pavlos melas who wrote home in one of his letters he said that that he had just learned to speak Macedonian.So is that holding you speechless .It's true i'm not making it up.

[N. Panamevris]

You are under the (false) impression that modern Greeks have an ethnic connection with ancient Greeks, or Hellenes to be more accurate and specific. This is what creates the "short circuit" in your mind and majority of modern Greeks - since you are connecting ancient worlds with modern society and political realities, especially of the last 200 years or so - and incorrectly believe that the "Hellenic nation" has always existed, without interruption, well into the 19th century until today. You shouldn't be blamed of course - the Greek government and educational system continue to teach and promote these beliefs on an official level.

So yes Pythagoras was a Hellene, even though no such country or polity ever existed, until the early 19th century (since Hellenes existed without doubt). Now, if you want to "connect" ethnically, spiritually and ideologically with Pythagoras and the (extinct) Hellenes that is your right and choice, even though it's irrational and a serious delusion to hold such a belief. In other words, there is no denying that Greek people, state, and nationality exist today, after almost 200 years of state and identity engineering.

As a result, please do not ask others to justify and prove their identity (i.e. their Macedonian national identity), even though it may be based on myths, legends, forgeries, and lies - since you yourself are an ethnic Greek today while your ancestors 200 years ago spoke various languages and dialects (Vlahika, Arvanitika, Slavika, among other lesser known languages) as their first language.

Please note, if you would like to quote L. Georgievski or K. Gligorov to make a 'certain point' I will quote Mr. T. Veremis and Mrs. T. Dragonas in kind.

Ok then, I was going to remove myself from this forum but since someone has come along that's not using insulting language I'll play for just a little bit more.

Carlin, I could say exactly the same; You are under the (false) impression that modern Macedonians have an ethnic connection with ancient Macedonians. This is what creates the "short circuit" in your mind and majority of modern Macedonians - since you are connecting ancient worlds with modern society and political realities, especially of the last 65 years or so - and incorrectly believe that the "Macedonian nation" has always existed, without interruption, until today. You shouldn't be blamed of course - the FRY government and educational system continue to teach and promote these beliefs on an official level. (see E. Borza for credible proof)

As for Pythagoras, well at least u agree that he's a Hellene & that Hellene's did in fact exist. Just because a nation or country does not exist, it doesn't mean that an Ethnos/ethnicity didn't exist. The people of this Ethnos today still self identify as Hellenes. (translates to Greeks in English)

I'm amazed at how u all find it overwhelmingly more important to prove/disprove the origins of the Greeks over yourselves. The reason I ask others to justify and prove their connection with ancient Macedonian's (which in turn relates to "Macedonian identity") is that if someone stakes a claim, the onus of proof is on them. The Greeks are always being asked of this & in turn have no problem in doing so but when it's asked of u, it's always the same answer, "why should we have to". The standard answer should be "I CAN'T". Stop hiding behind ur govt's thumb & make the change!

As for quoting the one's u mention above, I don't even bother because they're are irrelevant & insignificant in their cause when compared to THE quote that sais it all. It's funny how no one here ever quotes it or even tries to discredit it. It's been sitting at the top of page 9 for some time now & 4 pages later, an attempt has still not been made.

[N. Panamevris]

Well, I must say that is has been an eye opener here for me to see the true nature & psyche of you poor confused, delusional & uneducated individuals on this forum. You have all been swimming in the sea of knowledge for two decades now & if u walked out today I'm convinced that you would all walk out as dry as a bone. I’m amazed at how much hatred (in an instant) all of have for the Greeks. As soon as one of us comes here to have a constructive conversation you pounce on us with offensive insults just as has been proven once more here with me. You have referred to me/us as goats, malakas, morons, blacks, Hellarse’s etc etc & the list goes on, whereas I have not once called u anything but Macedonian/s of which I fully regret & completely take back now. The likes of u could not in any possible way have sprouted from the likes of Phillip II, Alexander III, Aristotle or Cleopatra, just to name a few. Your racist remarks, rudeness, highly offensive nature & sheer arrogance of your ignorance is overwhelming which just goes to show the type of upbringing you all had which could only mean that it takes a special kind of parent to bring a child/children of ur character into this world. If only the Slavo-Bulgarians had started using condoms since 1946, the Balkans would be a much better place. You’re all wearing horse blinkers & live in your own little world & community (as the Amish do) that u call “Macedonian Truth Organisation” (MTO) & FYROM, which if I had the choice would just be plain FYR, the GREEK word "Macedonia" would be dropped completely as u are not worthy of it as you're nothing but a bunch of lying & thieving individuals distorting & falsifying history day after day, year after year. You all sit in front of your PC pretending to be "keyboard heroes" with your 3,000 - 10,000 individual posts. You need to get out & see the real world & not fester in your seats until rigamortis sets in. You all think you're a superior race. One of you even thinks he's royalty!, you're the most ignorant & arrogant group of people I have ever come across... In fact you all have your head shoved so far up your arse that you eat & swallow your own faeces (this is the non-vulgar term for "shit" for those of you that don't know it & are more familiar with). After all, as they say, "You are what you eat"

The historian Eugene Borza is spot on about you (post #95) as are early 20th century researches such Brailsford, Ripley, Coon & Lundman who were all professors of Anthropology & their extensive research on your people is recognised around the world. Their view on your ancestry is as follows:
“Present-day (ethnic) Macedonians are a mixed race. Their linguistic and cultural origins stem from the 6th century when various Slavic tribes migrated to, and settled in, the region of Macedonia” They go on to describe the Slavic speakers in Macedonia as Bulgarians, and often placed the both populations in a common racial subgroup. Other authors, like Brailsford, described Slavic speakers from Macedonia as related both with Serbs and Bulgarians, but without clear defined ethnic consciousness. Brailsford considered a part of the people of North West Macedonia as Serbs and the people of the region of Ohrid as Bulgarians.
Ur so called “Macedonian identity” was created by Josip Tito & Stalin who started this whole process in 1946 after WWII. The communists needed access to the Mediterranean Sea so Stalin put Tito in charge to come up with a plan of creating a "Macedonian Identity". He started off by changing the name of the southern province of Yugoslavia from VARDASKA to MACEDONIA along with changing all the surnames (of people living in Vardaska) by adding "ski" & "ska" at the end, & lastly he summoned a dozen Bulgarians to codify & create the "Macedonian language" by changing 5 letters of the Bulgarian alphabet to coincide with the southern accent/dialect... & presto, u have a Macedonian Identity that in the future would start to make territorial claims towards Greece. This is when the whole process of falsifying Greek history began in order to take over one of Greece’s most historically famous regions...

"MAKEDONIA"


I have been reading posts in this forum for almost a year now & I must say that I have never seen or read such unsubstantiated claims or facts regarding the history of the Greece & its Macedonian kingdom anywhere else. It’s the kind of stuff that’s made for women’s magazines full of unreliable facts & photo shopped pics about the stars of Hollywood. On that note I am removing myself from this misguided & infectious forum before it’s too late. As someone once said,

“Never argue with an idiot, they will bring u down to their level, and then beat u with experience”

So, I leave you with two of the truest of all facts of which the first is where it’s "game over" for the people of FYR & the second is just 1 of many 100’s of Historians, Archaeologists, Anthropologists, & Linguists express the same views as R.L. Fox.

1) From the speech of Alexander I of Macedon when he was admitted to the Olympic games, Herodotus, "Histories", 9.45)

"Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Greece; I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Greece change her freedom for slavery."

2) Professor Robert Lane Fox’s comments about Macedonian antiquity;

Macedonia - The Ashmolean Museum - YouTube

P.S. Just to let you all know, I have copied this entire thread & will be pasting it on my future blog to expose the true nature & how all of you treat others that are not Slavic-Maks on here!

So, in order to not give you the satisfaction of banning me... This is N. Panamevris signing out!

[makedonche]

To quote a well known Macedonian.......
"For our plate smashing neighbour"...not to have the last word here and leave a trail of garbage...........

The historian Eugene Borza is spot on about you

You claim to be intersested in ancient history...among many other claims...this being the case I suggest you spend more time educating yourself on all of Eugene Borza's literature relating to Alexander 1st...that way you may enjoy the essence of the whole story, as opposed to extracting one liners that you think substantiates your views or opinions. No need to reply as I see you have already saved us the trouble of disposing of you.......just go and get properly educated.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Plenty of non-Macedonians have been given the chance to participate in this Macedonian forum over the years. The problem is, they have trouble keeping their racist remarks and smart-ass comments to themselves. Do you really expect a Macedonian forum to tolerate Greeks who come here to deny our existence?

I haven't even come across you or this thread until now, but I can already tell that you are a joke. You categorise all members as rude and racist, but fail to question your own motives. What I find absolutely pathetic is that you join this forum trying to spread your propaganda in a subtle way. But when you couldn't handle it any more your temper got the better of you, revealing your true form. It makes you look like a complete idiot.

I was going to delve into a few more points but just thought 'why bother.'

You won't be missed.

[George S.]

So N mankervis you actually found the door good fucking riddanse you piece of shit.You are brainwashed by your greek govt.Why should we prove to you a piece of shgit of who we are.It iis easier to prove what your'e not.We have finally put the rubbish out.

[makgerman]

It's the best thing you've done and let me assure you that you won't be missed.

Go back to your Hellarse forums and educate your fellow racist countrymen that today's modern Greek race is a Pure Mixture of Arvanti, Turks, Albanian, Vlachs, Slavs, Egyptian, Bulgar etc.