Origins of Ancient Greece

[George S.]

which part of ancient history you don't understand NP.I can tell you why greece took macedonia in its grasp for land.Pure & simple.The western powers in 1832 created a greek state & a picture of Athens would show you that it was one huge swamp.So apart from that you had the islands & nothing else.That's why they decided to take the aegean area.If greece didnt The bulgarians laid claim to it.If the greeks came a couple of hours later the bulgarians would have been getting it.Ok now back to the history lesson what's your question...

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Pana mevris ine malakas apto la la land

[N. Panamevris]

Ye and Im a Victorian from Melbourne, Australia.

Are you parents Greek and if so what part of Greece do they come from or your grandparents for that matter since you identify yourself as a "New South Welshman from Sydney, Australia"

LP, I don’t realy like bringing up my parents as I have been without them since 1998 of which the 14th anniversary was only 2 weeks ago & as you would guess it’s a touchy subject for anyone with no parents, god bless them. But, as this is so important for u to know, my father & both his parents were all born & raised on the Agean Islands & my mother & her parents are all from Australia. As I said earlier, I self identify as a NSW man from Sydney Australia, I was born, raised, work & still live here.

But LP, now ur confusion is confusing me too. Are you 1) A Macedonian from Ohrid, Republic of Macedonia, 2) Are you a Victorian from Melbourne Australia or 3) Do you have two identities??? If it’s the latter can u please explain how its possible for an individual to have more than one identitiy (unless one is a Spy off course).

So LP, for arguments sake answer me this. Firstly, If you & ur parents were born, raised & lived in the village Pella in the Macedonian province of Greece how would you self identify as?? & 2) If MY parents & I were born, raised & lived in the (smae place) village Pella in the Macedonian province of Greece how should I/we self identify as? (putting aside MK's rule, "you CAN NEVER tell others what they must identify as) But before u & others jump the gun, I am NOT denying ur Macedonian identities at all.

[N. Panamevris]

which part of ancient history you don't understand NP.I can tell you why greece took macedonia in its grasp for land.Pure & simple.The western powers in 1832 created a greek state & a picture of Athens would show you that it was one huge swamp.So apart from that you had the islands & nothing else.That's why they decided to take the aegean area.If greece didnt The bulgarians laid claim to it.If the greeks came a couple of hours later the bulgarians would have been getting it.Ok now back to the history lesson what's your question...

George, once again, I'm not interested in modern history. I too have read this book about how Greeks stole Macedonia, are changing history by way of Greek govt pay offs to writers/historians etc etc, but I don't remember it saying anything about Athens being a huge swamp at one stage. It was an interesting read but I'm into ancient history as it's my passion.

Now, back to the history lesson as u put it... my questions are in posts #51 & 53.

[Dejan]

Typical grk trying to muddy the waters

[N. Panamevris]

Seeing as we’re talking about self identifying, here is one for SOM & Napolean. I read ur earlier posts regarding quotes from Herodotus. Can u please strip this quote down showing the inconsistencies in it or better still, can u please show/quote a reliable source that debunks & falsifies it. The quote by Herodotus I’m referring to is this one below.
"Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Greece; I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Greece change her freedom for slavery."

(From the speech of Alexander I of Macedon when he was admitted to the Olympic games, Herodotus, "Histories", 9.45)

[N. Panamevris]

Typical grk trying to muddy the waters

I am Australian, did u miss this?
Why do u refer to the Pan Maks or Greeks as Greeks when in ur eyes no such thing exists? Why not refer to them as Pontics or Profyges as u sometime put it? Is it because no such countries as Pontus & Prosyg don't or never existed? To identify a person as a Pontian or Prosfyges they must come from that nation, but no such nation or country ever existed.

[N. Panamevris]

Pana mevris ine malakas apto la la land

"not, to worry that's very normal for your types (KOZI)"

I’m not normaly confused MK, I’m only confused by ur confusion. One minute ur nice & say things like “god bless you my son of Macedonia”, “thanks for being honest” & the next minute ur rude & say that ur on "GOAT PATROL 24/7" & that "I’m a malaka from la la land". I don't know who sound more confused, do u? If there's anything that my parents taught me it is to always be civil & nice to others no matter who they are & where they come from.

[Dejan]

I am Australian, did u miss this?

I thought you were a New South Welshman...

Your approach to dialogue is boring, it's been done by your ilk a thousand times over. Just like your predecessors, you have nothing new or interesting to bring to the conversation. You are here to ruffle a few feathers and that is all. You don't plan to listen or hear what is being said on our Macedonian forum. Prove us wrong aussie.

[damian]

George, once again, I'm not interested in modern history. I too have read this book about how Greeks stole Macedonia, are changing history by way of Greek govt pay offs to writers/historians etc etc, but I don't remember it saying anything about Athens being a huge swamp at one stage. It was an interesting read but I'm into ancient history as it's my passion.

Now, back to the history lesson as u put it... my questions are in posts #51 & 53.

you can only live in the present even reading and writing ancient history is modernising it ancient grease is already colonialism in action and in historical writing

[N. Panamevris]

I thought you were a New South Welshman...

Your approach to dialogue is boring, it's been done by your ilk a thousand times over. Just like your predecessors, you have nothing new or interesting to bring to the conversation. You are here to ruffle a few feathers and that is all. You don't plan to listen or hear what is being said on our Macedonian forum. Prove us wrong aussie.

I’m sorry to disappoint you with boredom Dejan but ur incorrect on both counts. Firstly, If u were bored u wouldn’t be taking part in this thread & secondly, in fact I have read everything that has been written on this topic & replied to all questions asked of me. I also haven’t seen anything that I’ve mentioned or asked by anyone else before. I am Not here to ruffle any feathers as I don’t think I’m smart enough for that & most importantly, I’m NOT denying anyone’s Macedonian identity at all. I’m here to be shown true & credible historical facts about ancient Macedonian history.
Also, I think ur the one that’s not listening or reading my posts carefully, I said I identify myself as a New South Welshman from Sydney Australia. I put it as it was asked of me by LP, but in short I say I’m Australian as you would say that ur Macedonian, no need to re-specify city & state unless asked.

[George S.]

NP you have taken self identity to the extreme.You have to have a right to a name greece has NO RIGHT to the macedonian name.Why because it doesn't belong to the greek govt or the greek people.Macedonian name was born for the macedonian people since time immemorial.Unlike greece which was not a whole country but a bunch of warring states at city states.Whereas the macedonians had a king with a knigdom a complete different structure.If you can see old maps they show macedonia in it's entirety depicting it as a whole & seperate country from greece.I'm using the words greece as it didn't exist in ancient times.Right up to the conquest of alexander the greeks were known as helenes & that's where it ended.Also the greeks were known as athenians,spartans,etc.They were known as danians ,dorians,achaeans,romaoi,then greece after 1832.So at no point have they been referred as macedonians.
Today you can't just say a bunch of panmaks are macedonian they are not they are not native to the land & the govt is playing politics telling people that are really turkish are macedonians whether you are born there or not.It doesn't make a difference a wrong cannot be a right.A good many people know the bs the greek govt is doing to tell the world they are macedonians they are FAKES.Who are the real macedonians we are & we have a link it has been proven to the ancients.So would i lie to you when i say there are no greeks left in greece except arvanites,albanians,vlachs,slavs,turks & macedonians.
SO NP where does the greeks have a right to change their name to greeks to macedonians unless its a political right.Where as the macedonians have a inalienable right to their name.Ok look at ancient history the greeks were known as hellenes until the macedonian conquest of greece.Hellenism ended there.They were also known as danians,dorians,Achaeans,romaoi & then greeks after 1832.
So there is your answer the greeks have never been a united people only until 1832.The reason for that they were a conquered people by the macedonians.So when one looks at peoples inalianable rights as to legitimate right then to self identity after all that can you tell me how a fake country can do things illegally & hope to get away with it??

[N. Panamevris]

Thanx for ur candid reply George. I think what ur trying to say is that the actual words Greece or Greek did not exist until 1832 & not the people themselves right? So these people were Hellenes not Greeks as they claim today. So what ur saying is that all the people of these city states identified as Hellenes & not Greeks & they did not have a nation or country? Also, are these old maps ur talking about ancient maps where they show Macedonia as a separate country as I would like to see these. Can u please post them or even a link maybe?

[N. Panamevris]

I think there is much confusion about the words Greece & Greeks. These are not Greek words, they are the English words for Ellas, (Ellada), Ellines. This is how they refer to themselves in their language & as Greece & Greeks in the English language. If an Englishman asked where are u from & they replied "Ellada" the Englishman wud not understand, hence the English word Greece. Greeks only refer to themselves & their country as Greece & Greeks only if they are using or speaking English. Every country has a different word in their language for these words. What are they in the Macedonian language? is it Grejce? I don't know, maybe u cud tell me George.

[George S.]

np you are confusing a country with individuals.There never was a country called greece before 1832.
But there were individuals who were athenian,spartan etc.but greek on the individual scale
as far as macedonians were concerned we called thegrcij,grk,crni, greeks (blacks) greeks are short & black people(your roots were in afrika),other variants used hell ,hellas.Latin greece means black,dark etc.So beleive it or not we called you blacks because that is your description.Like it or not that is how greece got it's name maybe it's not happy with that it's time for a change.Well they can call themselves anything but macedonian.
The Moral of the story is the greeks never stuck to one name & they changed it to suit themselves.Is today any different no it isn't but they are stealing or trying to steal our identity.They say we don't exist.So they make up suitable propaganda of how the greeks were macedonians & today they play around with greek macedonian.Macedonia is greece does that sound familiar np.