Origins of Ancient Greece

[George S.]

go back to your sudan whereever that is.Greeks are fakes,they steal other people's history they lie a lot.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Well, I must say that is has been an eye opener

Eye opener?

PAN MAKE DONIAN MISSION STATEMENT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_sex aka OPA OR ELA (DA)
Welcome to Greece

MOST FAMOUS GREEK (ouch) WAS NOT EVEN GREEK ..
Oglan Oglan Kalk Gidelim - Stelios Kazantzidis - YouTube

Greek dancing - YouTube

[George S.]

pan maks mission statement id to be a bunch of wankers & annoy the shit out of people like US.

[Stojacanec]

connection[/B] with ancient Macedonian's (which in turn relates to "Macedonian identity") is that if someone stakes a claim, the onus of proof is on them. The Greeks are always being asked of this & in turn have no problem in doing so but when it's asked of u, it's always the same answer, "why should we have to".

This is where the comedy of gypsy rhetoric always ends up and thankfully np has shown himself the door.

I have always called myself a Macedonian with no qualms from anyone ever other than the likes of you, Angleski and other pan maks.

So again, other than you malakas, I don't know what I have to prove.

[United MKD]

lol, didn't take long for this fool to show his true colours.

[George S.]

Spot on umkd he just doesn't get it is that we exist as macedonians & he doesn't.He is confused that he might be a turk,greek or macedonian.Can one choose to be who they are not.
Obviously you can.It's all trickery & fakeness.Panmaks coming out of the wood work wanting equal rights with macedonians.What a fucking joke.
You got shit organizations like the panmak alexander club designed to steal our identity.
I got a quiz for the panmaks William Gladstone said in 1860 in the british parliament Macedonia for the Macedonians.What does that mean.The Panmaks.??

[George S.]

//""Ur so called “Macedonian identity” was created by Josip Tito & Stalin who started this whole process in 1946 after WWII. The communists needed access to the Mediterranean Sea so Stalin put Tito in charge to come up with a plan of creating a "Macedonian Identity". He started off by changing the name of the southern province of Yugoslavia from VARDASKA to MACEDONIA along with changing all the surnames (of people living in Vardaska) by adding "ski" & "ska" at the end, & lastly he summoned a dozen Bulgarians to codify & create the "Macedonian language" by changing 5 letters of the Bulgarian alphabet to coincide with the southern accent/dialect... & presto, u have a Macedonian Identity "

What stupid moron you are you look at at the 1944 ASNOM declaration.It was the people who declared who they were.If tito created macedonia from vardarska then tito had a time machine as many times in books etc macedonia is described with macedonians.This is hundreds of years ago.Also who do the turks say had prior to the balkan wars macedonia & the people were called macedonians. PANMAK you moron your view is exactly like your AWACK AMAC organization AKA the greek govt propaganda machine .You are only kidding yourself i .These are undeniable truths.You want proof of who we are.If you read this thread & others it means we are macedonians not some fakes.We can trace our past to alexander the great.What proof the proof is our macedonian blood,language custom ,culture.We aren't panmaks trasported from turkey 70 years ago just to displace the local population & hide the fact that there were majority macedonians there.What do we have is denials about a macedonian minority,who are lacking basic human rights.You are full of BULLSHIT a brainwashed MORON.Your greek govt didn't change toponyms ,desecrate graves with cyrillic alphabet,change people's names.Forced assimilations ,denationalizations,denials of identity.ONly greek allowed to be spoken at all times.I make no apology you are fucking racists/Naxis to boot.

[George S.]

panmak how much did you pay to the 2) Professor Robert Lane Fox’s comments about Macedonian antiquity; that alexander said he was a greek.I don't think he would say that.
Also what makes you think the people of skopje are not macedonians they actually are.Also the olympics did not originate with the greeks.It originated with the macedonians & the greeks merely adopted it.sounds familar.Ol means the sun,olimp means the sun mountain.You merely hellenised it calling it olympus.The very things you mentioned are really not greek but borrowed, stole ,from macedonians.
Don't forget the millions of dollars to get people to rewrite history with a greek slant.Al lot of encyclopadia people have allready told you to get lost as you tried to rewrite history rather than face the truth.Lets face it Macedonia's big hurdle is not having to prove itself but the outright rubbish written by greeks, most of it written by greeks do you think they would have a few kind words to say?

[George S.]

Thttp://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/similarities.htmlhe ancient Macedonians used their own vernacular, Macedonian language. There are number of testimonials from the ancient historians in

support of this fact. For instance, the Greek historian Plutarch (I AD), describing a quarrel between Alexander The Great and one of his friends wrote that Alexander "jumped on his feet and in Macedonian called on his shield-bearers"11).

In his biography of Marc Anthony, Plutarch mentioned that Macedonian was the mother tongue of the Egyptian queen Cleopatra VII and of her ancestors from the Macedonian dynasty Ptolemais12).

The Latin historian Quintus Curtius Rufus (I AD) also testified that the ancient Macedonians spoke a separate, Macedonian language. He described the trial of the Macedonian Philotas for contriving a plot to murder Alexander The Great. The plot was discovered and Philotas was publicly interrogated by Alexander. Describing this event, Quintus Curtius Rufus clearly stated that the Macedonians spoke separate, Macedonian language13).

An evidence about the distinction of the Macedonian language was found on fragment of a papyrus which was thought to be a part of the lost work "History of the successors" by the ancient Greek historian Arrian. In this papyrus (PSI XII.1284) an episode from the history of ancient Macedonia has been described where the distinction of Macedonian language has been clearly emphasized. It has been described in this text how the secretary of Philip and Alexander of Macedon, Eumenes was: "…sending forth a man called Xennias who was Macedonian in speech…" to negotiate with the Macedonian army of Neoptolemeus. This event took place around 321 BC.14)

That the Macedonian was a distinct vernacular characteristic to the Macedonians confirm the anti-Macedonian speeches given by the great orator from Athens, Demosthenes. In his work "Philippic" Demosthenes gave the following insulting remark about the Macedonian King Philip II of Macedon:

"That man Philip, not only he is not a Greek, but also he does not have anything in common with the Greeks. If only he would have been a barbarian from a decent country - but he is not even that. He is a scabby creature from Macedonia - a land that one can not even bring a slave that is worth something from".15)

The question why Demosthenes named Philip as a barbarian becomes imminent. Majority of the scientists believe that the term "barbarians" in the ancient period was used to refer mainly to people that spoke language that Greeks could not understand, usually accompanied by a dose of disregard towards the culture of the people speaking that language. It is well known that all the people that did not speak Greek were named "barbarians", whereas the Greeks from the city-states used the word "xenoi" when referring to one-another.16)

Demosthenes was not alone in naming the Macedonians "barbarians". Ancient Greek historian Isocrates also called the Macedonians "barbarians".17)

The Greek Trasymachus, in his speech before the Larisians in V BC named the Macedonian king Archelaos "barbarian" in relation to the Greeks Larisians.18)

However, it stands for a fact that the elites in power in ancient Macedonia at a certain stage of the development of Macedonia took up the Greek literary language and some elements of the Greek culture (religion, onomastics etc). It needs to be emphasized that this does not mean at all that the Macedonians were Hellenes. First thing to be said in relation to this is that the Greek literary language at the time was also used by many other nations that were not Hellenes: Thracians, Jews, Ilyrians, even the Romans, all these people at some stage in the ancient period wrote in old Greek language. Such examples can be witnessed even today: the Irish speak and write in English and are not English; Brazilians speak and write in Portugese and are not Portugese etc.

As far as adopting the Old Greek language by the Macedonian royalty is concerned, it is a fact that this occurred at a certain stage of development of the Macedonian state. Supporting this fact is the non-existence of not even a single inscription in Greek on the territory of Macedonia to be dated from and before V BC, which matches with the period prior to the partial adoption of the Greek culture in Macedonia. The fact that many of the inscriptions in Greek found (from a later date though) contain many grammatical errors, is by itself a proof in support of the truth, that is the Old Greek language was foreign to the Macedonians.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

lol, didn't take long for this fool to show his true colours.

you, know what gave him away? black knee high socks with shorts (ancient greek) .. eye sore

[Louis]

George S.,
who wrote post#144?

[lavce pelagonski]

This zaspan is from the pushkar council forum, they are all mentally challenged.

[George S.]

hey louis post 144

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/similarities.html

what you like it?

[Carlin]

Ok then, I was going to remove myself from this forum but since someone has come along that's not using insulting language I'll play for just a little bit more.

Carlin, I could say exactly the same; You are under the (false) impression that modern Macedonians have an ethnic connection with ancient Macedonians. This is what creates the "short circuit" in your mind and majority of modern Macedonians - since you are connecting ancient worlds with modern society and political realities, especially of the last 65 years or so - and incorrectly believe that the "Macedonian nation" has always existed, without interruption, until today. You shouldn't be blamed of course - the FRY government and educational system continue to teach and promote these beliefs on an official level. (see E. Borza for credible proof)

As for Pythagoras, well at least u agree that he's a Hellene & that Hellene's did in fact exist. Just because a nation or country does not exist, it doesn't mean that an Ethnos/ethnicity didn't exist. The people of this Ethnos today still self identify as Hellenes. (translates to Greeks in English)

I'm amazed at how u all find it overwhelmingly more important to prove/disprove the origins of the Greeks over yourselves. The reason I ask others to justify and prove their connection with ancient Macedonian's (which in turn relates to "Macedonian identity") is that if someone stakes a claim, the onus of proof is on them. The Greeks are always being asked of this & in turn have no problem in doing so but when it's asked of u, it's always the same answer, "why should we have to". The standard answer should be "I CAN'T". Stop hiding behind ur govt's thumb & make the change!

As for quoting the one's u mention above, I don't even bother because they're are irrelevant & insignificant in their cause when compared to THE quote that sais it all. It's funny how no one here ever quotes it or even tries to discredit it. It's been sitting at the top of page 9 for some time now & 4 pages later, an attempt has still not been made.

I really don't care how modern Greeks and Macedonians, as a whole or individually, choose to identify themselves. Ethnic descent and identity are a matter of ideological belief ('faith') and are not based on facts or evidence.

Modern nations were created in the last 200 years, including the French, German, Italian and other nations across the globe (Greece or Macedonia were not exempt from this process). In some cases, especially in Europe, 'history' and 'language' became a vehicle and an ideological tool for 'creating' or 'inventing' nations/ethnic groups. In more specific instances, like Greece or France or Italy, the process of the creation/invention of the new nation ended up in outrageous scholarship and outright historical forgeries and lies in order to justify the new political realities.

You continue to delude yourself that there was a 'Greek ethnicity' in the early 19th century, or that a Vlach or Albanian peasant or shepherd of Attica or Peloponnese regarded themselves as "Hellenes", or should be regarded as descendants of Perikles or Solon on the basis of speaking broken Romaika. Note that (ancient) Hellenes did in fact exist, but I'm not sure how Vlachs, Albanians, Slavs, Armenians and others fit into this "Hellenic continuity theory". In reality, the entire Balkans (including Macedonia as well) and Turkey ended up doing and replicating what western Europeans did earlier in terms of nation building and scholarship. Balkan history books, notably Greek and Bulgarian, contain some of the most laughable historical forgeries.

Macedonians are only fighting "the enemy" with the same weapon... Greeks seem to be crying foul - my question would be, what's the problem? If Vlachs, Albanians, Slavs and Turks can become Hellenes (scientific and historical fact), why can't other nations build and develop their own national myth and identity?

[George S.]

hey panmak you are totally BULLshit here you are telling carlin that an ethnos can exist without the country & previously you stated tito created the macedonian ethnos that's bs
what we under the turks macedonian.What were we before the slavs, macedonian after them macedonian.You are totally illogical.