Do Ancient Greeks have African Origins?

[Risto the Great]

So Bill. what kind of impact do you think Blacks had on Greeks ?

Nothing whatsoever, they can't dance, can't sing and can't run (without the juice).

[George S.]

RTG that little guy on the motor bike he must be greek he forgot to fill up.
THe black influence was in the early years,definitely not in modern greeks.The greeks practiced slavery & the macedonians if i remember right were free men & didn't practce slavery.

[Ottoman]

There was not something called Greece in the past, there were different states, before the Greeks there were the Persians and black people where already present there, we just need to study more on this subject.

By the way every nation practiced slavery in the past, the Romans got it from the Greeks, the Greeks got it from the Persians.

[Bill77]

The Negro In Ancient Greece
[originally published in American Anthropologist, 50:31-44. 1948]
FRANK M. SNOWDEN, JR.
Howard University



Graindor believes that a herm discovered at Athens is that of Memnon, one of the pupils of Herodes Atticus.

There can be little doubt that many other art objects which
depicted Negroes were also the work of artists who had before them as models Negroes who were seen daily in the agora, palaestra, or elsewhere.

The theatre also served to acquaint the Greek with the Negro. It is not surprising that the Negro became a familiar character on the Greek stage, since he had long been known in Greek mythology. The Negro appearing on certain coins, according to several scholars, is Delphos,
the eponymous hero of Delphi.

Negro bodyguards marched to the assistance of the Egyptian Busiris whom Heracles had laid low.

Memnon led Negro warriors at Troy.

Negroes appear also in the Andromeda story.

Circe is represented on several vases as a Negro.

One of the followers of Theseus was a boy whose thick lips and curly hair suggest that he was a Negro.

A Negro youth, interpreted as an attendant of the sons of Niobe, appears in a group of the Niobids.

The Negro, therefore, was comparatively well known to the Greek in mythology. It is reasonable to assume that plays which presented
these and similar myths helped, in many cases, to familiarize the Greek with the Negroid type. The Memnon or Aithiopes of Sophocles and possibly the Memnon of Aeschylus had an Ethiopian chorus.

Diodorus spoke highly of the civilized Ethiopians who inhabited Meroe
and the land adjoining Egypt. He regarded the Ethiopians as the first people to worship the gods

Negroes on the coinage of Phocis, Delphi, Lesbos, and
Athens

point to the existence of a tradition which honored some Negro hero, whether it was Delphos, as some have maintained, or some
other unknown black hero. Herodes Atticus mourned the death of his pupils (one of them a Negro) as if they had been his own children
because they were noble-minded, honorable youths, fond of study, and a credit to their upbringing. In their honor he erected statues.

Crossings between Negro and whites in ancient Greece were not uncommon. Aristotle mentions a woman of Elis whose daughter by a
Negro was not Negroid but whose grandson was.
Plutarch relates a similar story about a Greek woman whose black baby caused her to be accused of adultery, although an investigation of
her lineage revealed that she was the great granddaughter of an Ethiopian.

Mixture between blacks and whites in the Greek world is confirmed by the evidence of sculpture. A vase of a temple boy from Olynthus
is described by Robinson as a boy with "almost negroid features."

Another Olynthus head whose features Robinson also regards as "almost
negroid" can be explained in terms of race mixture.

Reference has already been made to a mulatto priest of Isis whose racial stock has been analyzed as follows: " ...cet homme, dont le
crâne appartient au type de l'Asie Mineure et
dont le bas du visage et le cou sont ceux d'un
nègre, est évidemment d'une race mixte; tout
bien considéré nous avons affaire à un
mulâtre."

The herm of Memnon, according to Graindor, reveals that this pupil of Herodes Atticus was "de race métisse mais avec
prédominance du type nègre du Nord de
l'Afrique, de la Nubie ou de l'Abyssinie."

Nothing in Aristotle's or Plutarch's observations on the racial characteristics of second and third generation black-white crosses gives any indication of modern concepts of "racial purity." The facts are stated scientifically without any of the modern strictures on such racial crossing.

[Soldier of Macedon]

.........before the Greeks there were the Persians and black people where already present there.......

I don't think you know how the Greek language and people came to be.

By the way every nation practiced slavery in the past, the Romans got it from the Greeks, the Greeks got it from the Persians.

Who did the Turks get it from?

[Voltron]

^ Geezus Arlington ! I can sympathize with your animosity with whats going on in Greece today, but cmon man lol. Although there are times I ask myself the same question, the truth is there still is a connection. Just as there is with Italians today and Spaniards. There is no loss, it is impossible to wipe off its imprint on people in the meditterenean in general.

There is no doubt in my mind that other groups have contributed to our ethnos today, but that does not mean the Hellenic element in us is gone. As far as being a far cry from our ancestors, well you can thank the Ottomans for that.

[Onur]

Voltron, you first said that your laziness is because of Ottoman rule and now you say that your hellenes was lost because of Ottomans.

Idiot, your ancient Greek side was already lost in 3-4th century. Everything related with ancient Greeks has been demonized because of paganism and then you became Romans for the next 1500 years. Then westerners told you to be Greeks again in 19th century and you Vlachs, Turks, Albanians have reborn as modern Greeks. Ottomans didn't tell you to be Romans, you Greeks choose to be like that.

In Ottoman era, you were able to preserve your identity as much as you can, rather than losing it. If there wouldn't be Turkish protection, you would all be butchered and burned alive by the catholics. Do you really think they would let you keep your heretic (according to them) orthodox church intact? 13th century catholic reign was the first round and there was gang bangs with prostitutes Hagia Sophia and you would all be dead in 1-2 centuries at most if there wouldn't be Ottoman rule. Turks saved your church and identity, otherwise how your language would exist today? Do you think Turks couldn't abolish your church as Latins did in 13th century and assimilate/kill you all? They could easily do that in ~550 years of time but they didn't. What could stop them to do so in 15th century? EU court of human rights???

[Voltron]

Voltron, you first said that your laziness is because of Ottoman rule and now you say that your hellenes was lost because of Ottomans.

Idiot, your ancient Greek side was already lost in 3-4th century. Everything related with ancient Greeks has been demonized because of paganism and then you became Romans for the next 1500 years. Then westerners told you to be Greeks again in 19th century and you Vlachs, Turks, Albanians have reborn as modern Greeks. Ottomans didn't tell you to be Romans, you Greeks choose to be like that.

In Ottoman era, you were able to preserve your identity as much as you can, rather than losing it. If there wouldn't be Turkish protection, you would all be butchered and burned alive by the catholics. Do you really think they would let you keep your heretic (according to them) orthodox church intact? 13th century catholic reign was the first round and there was gang bangs with prostitutes Hagia Sophia and you would all be dead in 1-2 centuries at most if there wouldn't be Ottoman rule. Turks saved your church and identity, otherwise how your language would exist today? Do you think Turks couldn't abolish your church as Latins did in 13th century and assimilate/kill you all? They could easily do that in ~550 years of time but they didn't. What could stop them to do so in 15th century? EU court of human rights???

What are you talking about !? I did not say that the Hellenic genes were gone due to the Ottomans. I said that we are a far cry in comparison to civilization, influence, development. We have a huge standard to compare ourselves to what accomplishments our ancestors did. And for this, yes I do blame the Ottomans and its laziness that comes with it. Hell, the whole Balkans are backwards due to your arrival. That is known throughout the balkan peninsula. Only Bosnians and other muslim groups disagree. Go figure.

[Voltron]

Voltron might me an idiot, but that piece of text reeks of bs Onur. It is no doubt in my mind that an Italian influence and possible dominance would have been far superior over a Turkish one. Voltron is right about one thing, that due to the Ottoman empire, Greece and the Balkans lost out of the Renaissance, Enlightenment, the age of Reason, and the Romantic era, which no doubt would have helped westernize the Balkans. You make the Catholics seem heinously evil but the Ottomans committed tons of evil to, including mass genocides. If Turks sought to preserve Balkan/Greek culture then they wouldn't have committed genocides against them, raped them, and crushed their every means of attempts at independence. You've provided a really illogical argument. Greece isn't Poland where they had to run to the Stalinists for protection in order to avoid the Nazi's...Italy was no threat, and there was nothing insisting that they wanted to wipe out Hellenism and it's people. They were as much Catholic as the Turks were Muslims.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Arlington.lol.
Seriously dont be a self hating liberal pun. Have some pride damn it.

[Onur]

SirGeorge8600, i didn't say that Ottomans were angels but show me just one example of a society who lived under foreign domination for ~500 years and still preserves their language, religion and customs. Just tell me one outside Ottoman domain. You gotta consider that during only ~100 years, English is an official language in India, French in Tunisia, Algeria and they still have major influence in these places. Same for ex-USSR states, most still speaks Russian and gets educated in Russian, have names with "-eva, -ova, -ov".

due to the Ottoman empire, Greece and the Balkans lost out of the Renaissance, Enlightenment, the age of Reason, and the Romantic era, which no doubt would have helped westernize the Balkans.

What makes you think that they would share their advancements with Balkans in 16-17th century???

Besides that, in 16th century, western world did renaissance to catch up and surpass the eastern world. So, eastern world, including Ottoman empire was far more advanced than western world b4 renaissance. Remember that the westerners read up the ancient Greek literature by using it`s Arabic language copies and from eastern libraries. So, when westerners was doing that, easterners didn't need renaissance at that time, in 16-17th century.


I am not portraying catholics as evil. I am pointing out an obvious facts. These were the real events happened at those times and rivalry was so intense between western and eastern churches.

And for this, yes I do blame the Ottomans and its laziness that comes with it. Hell, the whole Balkans are backwards due to your arrival. That is known throughout the balkan peninsula. Only Bosnians and other muslim groups disagree. Go figure.

Thats pure bullshit. This is your pitiful excuse, nothing else. Two atomic bombs exploded in Japan 50 years ago and look where are they now in terms of advancements. Germany has been totally destroyed by the Russians 50 years ago again. Turkey was poorer than African countries in 1920s. Russia was totally bust in 1990 and now it`s totally different. AND you blame Ottoman era of 19th century, even after 100-200 years??? How much time you need for your so-called recovery? 500 years more??? thats b.s.

You blame Ottoman era for your laziness? If thats so, then why Turks is not lazy as you Greek lazy asses????

[Voltron]

You blame Ottoman era for your laziness? If thats so, then why Turks is not lazy as you Greek lazy asses????

Its quite simple really, we were in the management department and you guys were on the ground working. Someone had to run the place.

[Risto the Great]

Wow, Onur & SirGeorge .... great opposing arguments.
Hard to fault your perspectives but I think ultimately the Christian populations of the Balkans would have preferred being subjugated by Christians than Muslims.

[Onur]

Wow, Onur & SirGeorge .... great opposing arguments.
Hard to fault your perspectives but I think ultimately the Christian populations of the Balkans would have preferred being subjugated by Christians than Muslims.

Yes, thats so obvious but what i am telling here is; if there would be no Ottoman regime here for 600 years, then there would only be a catholic regime and that Venetian, Hapsburg, Latin regime would kill, convert, assimilate you all for sure and you wouldn't exist today.

I am trying to do theoretical history here and you can understand that if you read something about 100 years of Latin rule in Istanbul. Wikipedia got good article with quotes from Byzantine first hand sources;

Final capture of Constantinople
The Crusaders took the city on April 12. The crusaders inflicted a horrible and savage sacking on Constantinople for three days, during which many ancient and medieval Roman and Greek works were either stolen or destroyed. The magnificent Library of Constantinople was destroyed. Despite their oaths and the threat of excommunication, the Crusaders ruthlessly and systematically violated the city's holy sanctuaries, destroying, defiling, or stealing all they could lay hands on; nothing was spared. It was said that the total amount looted from Constantinople was about 900,000 silver marks.

Speros Vryonis in Byzantium and Europe gives a vivid account of the sack of Constantinople by the Frankish and Venetian Crusaders of the Fourth Crusade:

The Latin soldiery subjected the greatest city in Europe to an indescribable sack. For three days they murdered, raped, looted and destroyed on a scale which even the ancient Vandals and Goths would have found unbelievable. Constantinople had become a veritable museum of ancient and Byzantine art, an emporium of such incredible wealth that the Latins were astounded at the riches they found. Though the Venetians had an appreciation for the art which they discovered (they were themselves semi-Byzantines) and saved much of it, the French and others destroyed indiscriminately, halting to refresh themselves with wine, violation of nuns, and murder of Orthodox clerics. The Crusaders vented their hatred for the Greeks most spectacularly in the desecration of the greatest Church in Christendom. They smashed the silver iconostasis, the icons and the holy books of Hagia Sophia, and seated upon the patriarchal throne a whore who sang coarse songs as they drank wine from the Church's holy vessels. The estrangement of East and West, which had proceeded over the centuries, culminated in the horrible massacre that accompanied the conquest of Constantinople. The Greeks were convinced that even the Turks, had they taken the city, would not have been as cruel as the Latin Christians. The defeat of Byzantium, already in a state of decline, accelerated political degeneration so that the Byzantines eventually became an easy prey to the Turks. The Crusading movement thus resulted, ultimately, in the victory of Islam, a result which was of course the exact opposite of its original intention.[11][12]

According to Choniates, a prostitute was even set up on the Patriarchal throne.[13] When Innocent III heard of the conduct of his pilgrims, he was filled with shame and strongly rebuked them.

Sir Edward Gibbon stated that the spoils taken during one week in Constantinople equalled seven times the whole revenue of England at that time[14]. The four magnificent bronze horses over the portals of San Marco's Basilica in Venice were snatched from the Byzantine hippodrome, standing monuments of one of the greatest acts of brigandage in history.

The treasures of the city, the books and works of art preserved from distant centuries, were all dispersed and most destroyed. The Empire, the great Eastern bulwark of Christendom, was broken as a power. The conquests of the Ottomans were made possible by the Crusaders' crime[15].

A Roman Catholic patriarch was established and attempted to introduce Roman Catholicism by force. The new Venetian Patriarch in Constantinople, Tommaso Morosini, was appointed by the Doge of Venice, Enrico Dandolo (the main person who engineered the diversion of the Fourth Crusade); and according to Gibbon, the Venetians employed every art to perpetuate in their own nation the honors and benefices of the Greek church. Morosini appealed to the Pope for aid, and being unable to serve so many derisive masters, he died a madman. The new papal legate, Pelagius, rode into Constantinople dressed in scarlet from head to foot, like a Greek Emperor himself, and soon asserted that the easy days were over: Thenceforth the Greek clergy must adapt themselves in all religious rites and beliefs to those of the Church of Rome. He was prepared to wade through blood, he quickly showed, should the Orthodox Greeks deny any part of his assertion[16].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_...Constantinople

You gotta accept that it was the Ottoman regime who protected eastern christianity from westerners for the whole medieval era. It`s even obvious from the border cities, states. It was no coincidence that orthodoxy was ending in Belgrade and the people outside that realm was only catholics, Croatians, Hungarians etc. Without Ottoman protection, there would be no orthodoxy anywhere in the world. Under Latin rule, all Balkan, Anatolian people including Greeks would probably be like today`s Romanians, genetically a Balkan hotchpotch but linguistically and religion wise, western Roman.

George and Voltron are complaining about missing renaissance but i bet they would already been dead and lost during that 300 years of time, from crusader occupation to the enlightenment era.

[Bill77]

Voltron you're being an idiot, the modern crisis has little to do with laziness and is not by Turkey either.

If we are talking serious here, I don't think Greeks are as lazy as people make them out to be. I can only go on what i see here in the diaspora (Australia) where they are business minded people and aren't afraid to take a risk and invest in a business. There was a populor joke that used to circulate here in Aus regarding the Greeks which was,

Why do Greeks suck in football?
Because each time they get a corner, they would put a fish and chip shop there.

If anything, the Australians were once looked at as the laziest and if not for the Europeans such as Greeks, Italians, Macedonians, that migrated to this country, Australia would not be as it is now.

Regarding the Greeks in Greece, well i am not qualified to judge but i can guess regarding the criticism of low work hours and pension age, well the trade unions are to blame for that. If that's at offer, any worker in any nation would grasp at that any where in the world.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I really don't know what SoM meant by look outside your window in Athens, I have been there and most of the men had Turkish hair styles...

In was more a jest in response to what he said about Phillip. What do you mean by "Turkish hair styles"?

Anyway, do you mind explaining to me why Philip of Macedon had excessively curly hair?

Several figures from antiquity appear with what you refer to as "excessively curly hair" on minted coins. His facial features as depicted on such items don't reveal any 'African' features.

While there were slaves (and the few who bought their freedom) that were African, that is a bad reason as to why to slur an entire populace as African.

Who slurred the "entire populace" as African?

............why most people then take this fraction of African influence (mainly from Egypt) to say things like Socrates and Caesar were from the Congo is beyond my understanding......

Who said Socrates and Ceaser were from Congo?

........sounds like Afrocentric bullshit.

Were the two examples I quoted previous to the above a collective example of your bullshit?

I hope you also know that if ancient Greece had African influence then so would ancient Macedonia, the two were next to eachother and had a lot of population exchanges, especially prior to their sovereigns being formed.

Macedonia was north of what became Hellas, it is geographically (much) further from Africa, and consequently had much less interaction with people from that continent. What "population exchanges" are you referring to?

Without Ottoman protection, there would be no orthodoxy anywhere in the world.

Did the Russians need Ottoman protection?