Do Ancient Greeks have African Origins?

[DraganOfStip]

I don't know if this has been shown previously in this thread,but there's a study made in 2006 Jan-Feb,European Journal Medical Genetics,a study by A, Hmida S, Kaabi H, Dridi A, Jridi A, El Gaa l ed A, Boukef K.,which was aimed at discovering the ancestors of Tunisian people.The DNA matching showed that Tunisians and Greeks are very closely related in the genetic material.Now,I just can't remember the link or the site where I got this from,but this is far more credible than the Madrid one (which included some Macedonians in it so it's results were disputed by the Greeks as "faked" because of it).I think it's worth a look...

[Carlin]

Cyprus: historical and descriptive. From the earliest times to the present day; Franz von Löher (W.H. Allen, 1878).

Pages 84, 85:
"...those in the open country and on the sea coast are descended from a mixed race of Italians, Syrians, and Negroes. In the more frequented parts of the island, traces of successive races were rapidly swept away..."

(FYI - Cypriot Greeks are mostly of Armenian, Syrian/Arabic, and European descent (Italian, French, etc). My next post, not necessarily in this thread, will outline and summarize the Armenian presence in Cyprus.)

Emirate of Crete.
- The Emirate of Crete was a Muslim state that existed on the Mediterranean island of Crete from the late 820s to the Byzantine reconquest of the island in 961.
- Crete was conquered by a group of Andalusian exiles, who landed on the island in ca. 824 or in 827/828 and quickly established an independent state there.

The island's Arab period remains relatively obscure, due to a paucity of surviving evidence regarding its internal history. Furthermore, other than a few place names recalling the Saracens' presence, no major archaeological remains from the period survive in Crete, possibly due to deliberate Byzantine destructions after 961. This has influenced the way the emirate is regarded in general: scholars, relying mostly on Byzantine accounts, have traditionally viewed the Emirate of Crete through a Byzantine lens as a quintessential "corsair's nest" and little else.

The picture painted by the few and scattered pieces of evidence from the Muslim world however is that of an ordered state with a regular monetary economy and extensive trade links, and there is evidence that Chandax was a cultural centre of some importance. The survival of numerous gold, silver and copper coins, of almost constant weight and composition, testifies to a strong economy and a high living standard among the population. The economy was strengthened by extensive trade with the rest of the Muslim world, especially with Egypt, and by a booming agriculture: the need to sustain an independent state, as well as access to the markets of the Muslim world, led to an intensification of cultivation. It is also possible that sugar cane was introduced to Crete at the time.

It is unclear what happened to the island's Christians after the Muslim conquest; the traditional view is that most were either converted or expelled. There is evidence however from Muslim sources for the continued survival of Christians on Crete, although according to the same sources the Muslims, whether descendants of the Andalusians or more recent migrants, formed the majority. There is also some evidence of rival factions on the island, either Christian or Muslim, as when Theodosius the Deacon reports the "inhabitants of crags and caves" under their leader Karamountes descending from the mountains during Nikephoros Phokas' siege of Chandax.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Crete

[Sir Shawn]

There has always been a lot of resistance by Western scholars to ignore the obvious African component of that general region. None the less more and more research tends to confirm that there was indeed a migration of people who are deemed "black" into the regions in and around Greece:

"A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."

"Following the numerous interactions among eastern Mediterranean and Levantine populations and regions, caused by the introduction of agriculture from the Levant into Anatolia and southeastern Europe, there was, beginning in the Bronze Age, a period of increasing interactions in the eastern Mediterranean, mainly during the Greek, Roman, and Islamic periods. These interactions resulted in the development of trading networks, military campaigns, and settler colonization. Major changes took place during this period, which may have accentuated or diluted the sub-Saharan components of earlier Anatolian populations. The second option seems more likely, because even though the population from Sagalassos territory was interacting with northeastern African and Levantine populations [trade relationships with Egypt (Arndt et al. 2003), involvement of thousands of mercenaries from Pisidia (Sagalassos region) in the war around 300 B.C. between the Ptolemaic kingdom (centered in Egypt) and the Seleucid kingdom (Syria/Mesopotamia/Anatolia), etc.], the major cultural and population interactions involving the Anatolian populations since the Bronze Age occurred with the Mediterranean populations form southeastern Europe, as suggested from historical and genetic data."

""In this context it is likely that Bronze Age events may have facilitated the southward diffusion of populations carrying northern and central European biological elements and may have contributed to some degree of admixture between northern and central Europeans and Anatolians, and on a larger scale, between northeastern Mediterraneans and Anatolians. Even if we do not know which populations were involved, historical and archaeological data suggest, for instance, the 2nd millennium B.C. Minoan and later Mycenaean occupation of Anatolian coast, the arrival in Anatolia in the early 1st millennium B.C. of the Phrygians coming from Thrace, and later the arrival of settlers from Macedonia in Pisidia and in the Sagalassos territory (under Seleucid rule). The coming of the Dorians from Northern Greece and central Europe (the Dorians are claimed to be one of the main groups at the origin of the ancient Greeks) may have also brought northern and central European biological elements into southern populations. Indeed, the Dorians may have migrated southward to the Peloponnese, across the southern Aegean and Create, and later reached Asia Minor."

F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008). Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564

[DraganOfStip]

According to IGena official DNA research,the most frequent haplogroup in Greek DNA is E1b1b (32%),which originates some 22 000 years ago in East Africa.Meaning,those East African tribes migrated to the north in the territory of present-day Greece and on the way (and in time) mixed with other nations to form modern Greek DNA.On the other hand,the most frequent haplogroup in Macedonian DNA is I2a (39%),which originates some 17 000 years ago in the Balkan peninsula.Meaning,our ancestors lived here since ages,they were indigenous to this area,and in time also mixed with settlers and conquerors to form modern Macedonian DNA.Interestingly enough,the so-called "Slavic haplogroup" - R1a (found in 50%> in Russians,Ukrainians,Slovenes,Poles and other Slavic nations) is found in both Macedonian (20%) AND Greek (15%) DNA.So basically by insulting Slavs they're insulting themselves too.Oh, the irony of it

[DraganOfStip]

According to IGena official DNA research,the most frequent haplogroup in Greek DNA is E1b1b (32%),which originates some 22 000 years ago in East Africa.Meaning,those East African tribes migrated to the north in the territory of present-day Greece and on the way (and in time) mixed with other nations to form modern Greek DNA.On the other hand,the most frequent haplogroup in Macedonian DNA is I2a (39%),which originates some 17 000 years ago in the Balkan peninsula.Meaning,our ancestors lived here since ages,they were indigenous to this area,and in time also mixed with settlers and conquerors to form modern Macedonian DNA.Interestingly enough,the so-called "Slavic haplogroup" - R1a (found in 50%> in Russians,Ukrainians,Slovenes,Poles and other Slavic nations) is found in both Macedonian (20%) AND Greek (15%) DNA.So basically by insulting Slavs they're insulting themselves too.Oh, the irony of it

Distribution of haplogroup E1b1b:


Distribution of haplogroup I2a:

[TojSum]

Meaning,our ancestors lived here since ages,they were indigenous to this area,and in time also mixed with settlers and conquerors to form modern Macedonian DNA.Interestingly enough,the so-called "Slavic haplogroup" - R1a (found in 50%> in Russians,Ukrainians,Slovenes,Poles and other Slavic nations) is found in both Macedonian (20%) AND Greek (15%) DNA.So basically by insulting Slavs they're insulting themselves too.Oh, the irony of it

Dragan, even greek scitentists are admiting this (со пола уста ама мораат што да прават)

This is from ANTHROPOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION OF GREECE
Non profitable scientific society, founded by Dr Aris N. Poulianos

1. article: Macedonians, Americans and Turks

http://aee.gr/english/99what_new/08/0803%20Macedonians%20etc/Macedonians.htm

Beside obvious and very well known greek propaganda they must admit this:

A fact that many people ignore (some intentionally, most not) is that from the anthropological point of view the Slav-speaking residents of FYROM, in their overwhelming majority, do not have a Slavic origin. Thus, although being Slav-speaking, are not Slavs (as neither Serbs etc), but autochthonous population descendants.

2. article: THE ORIGIN OF THE GREEKS BY ARIS N. POULIANOS

(1961, 1964, 1968, 1988)

(The book is sold out, but soon will be republished).

http://aee.gr/english/4greeks_origin/greeks_origin.html

Avgi, 6-1-1962: “Over 150 scientists of the University and the Academy of Moscow have fully agreed with the scientific views of Mr. Aris. Poulianos, underlining the seriousness of the research, and without sparing their expressions, they spoke with praising words about him. Dr S. A. Tocarev, professor of ethnography in the University of Moscow and head of the Department of Ethnography regarding the peoples of Europe at the Institute of Ethnography of the Moscow Academy of Sciences, stated the following:
.......................... (and now the funny part So far, concerning same issue it was generally accepted in science that contemporary Greeks historically have very few common elements with the ancient Greeks founders of the ancient civilization, and that contemporary Greeks in their greatest part represent descendants of Slavs (Read Macedonians), Albanians and other peoples who migrated in Greece and blended with the Greeks of the Byzantine era. Contrary, the writer of the present study, convincingly and based on analogous material, showed that whatever the influence of Slavs (Read Macedonians), and other peoples who came in contact with the Greeks was, the people of modern Greece is basically descendant of the ancient population of the Balkans and the Aegean islands. (With other words they need Macedonians to proof theirs connection with ancient people )))) ) .......................

And something from The well known Greek propagandistic "Anthropology blog by Dienekes Pontikos

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11/finally-structure-in-haplogroup-r1a.html

......................... 3. The samples from Greece (N=263), Macedonian Greeks (N=57), and Crete (N=361) have R-M458 frequency of 4.2, 8.8, and 2.2%. Assuming a frequency of R-M458 at 36.4% in ancestral Slavs, as in south Poland, the admixture estimates are 11.5, 24, 6%. These should probably be interpreted as upper limits (plus statistical margins) because the highest present-day frequency of R-M458 is probably lower than that in early Slavs.


4. Interestingly, the ethnic Macedonians from R. Macedonia* have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%, barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that they Macedonians of R.M.* are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong, just as (ii) the claim of some Macedonian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong. The actual truth is that the ethnic Macedonians from R. of Macedonia are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language.


Actually Greeks have more Slavic genes then Macedonians (5% vs 3.8%) ))

[DraganOfStip]

TojSum,the Greeks rushed to discredit IGenea as an unreliable organization that "manufactured" these results because they got paid from persons to do their DNA tests (please,what kind of a lame excuse is that?).Just for general information,IGenea is the European branch of FamilyTree DNA,the most highly esteemed company for DNA research based in Houston,USA.It also uses the labs of Arizona State University for it's research.It conducts 90% of ALL the world's DNA testings,including those for the world-famous Genographic project of the National Geographic Society.So by logic,why would Nat Geo hire FamilyTree DNA to do the tests if they're an "unreliable" organization?Just another poor excuse from the Greeks when faced with hard evidence against their beliefs.Suck on that,malakas!

[razmkd]

Our name is Macedonia - YouTube

[Risto the Great]

Razmkd, I haven't looked at your Youtube video yet. But surely posting it up once is enough.

[George S.]

that was a good video going through history then it says our name is macedonia & will allways be macedonia.A very good video.

[DraganOfStip]

Our name is Macedonia - YouTube

Good job RazMKD,though i failed to see it's relation to the topic of this thread.Still,we need more videos like these to promote the truth about Macedonia to the world.Way to go.

[Carlin]

A history of Greece, V.1. Abbott, Evelyn, 1843-1901.

http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/009796541

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uva.x001092649

Page 26:

- The Greeks looked back to a time when the Continent was in the hands of the barbarian tribes. Herodotus speaks of the Hellenes as separating from the barbarian nation which preceded them.

- Of these aborigines the most important tribe, and that of which the name was most widely spread, was the Pelasgians. Next to them came the Leleges, the Carians, who were closely connected with the Leleges, and the Thracians. Less important were the Abantes, the Dryopians, the Temmices, Hyantes, and others.

- Among such "barbarians" Strabo mentions Pelops, Danaus, the Dryopians, Cauconians, Pelasgi, Leleges, Thracians (in Attica and Daulis), Phoenicians, Aonians, Temmices and Hyantes (in Boeotia). He also appeals to the evidence of names, quoting Cecrops, Codrus, Aeclus, Cothus, and others as barbarians. The Thesprotians, Cassopaeans, Amphilochians, Molossians, and Athamanes are also barbarians.

Page 27:

- The Athenians, the Ionians, the Aeolians, and the Arcadians were all originally Pelasgians.


Phoenician influence on Greek Religion 900-600 BC

http://www.wolftree.freeserve.co.uk/Phoenician/Phoenician_influences_in_Greek_Religion.html

Conclusion

The Phoenicians influenced many of the ways in which the Greeks looked at their gods, although they were by no means the only influence on Greek religion. This, like other areas of Greek life, showed inputs from all the surrounding and more advanced cultures. In this essay, I have tried to show that there are many influences on Greek religion and that even some of these - such as the Anatolian myths - may have come to Greece by way of the Phoenicians. Indeed, the Phoenicians own beliefs contained assimilations of Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Hittite religion, so any influence they had on Greece was not wholly original in the literal sense.

The Greeks themselves were masters of assimilation. They did not simply take on all the myths and religious practices that they encountered, and were unlikely to have had a complete understanding or identification with foreign gods and rituals. This is demonstrated by the fact that early art shows depictions of decidedly unGreek features, gradually taking on more and more Greek features with the passing of time. It is indeed unlikely that the Oriental input would have had any great effect on the way ancient Greeks actually carried out their lives, and seems largely cosmetic. Their beliefs remained the same, and their attitude towards myths generally may have been irreverent, considering them tales emphasising points rather than truths that had to be believed in their entirety.

Perhaps the most enduring testament to the Phoenician influence of Greece and its islands is in the architecture, which changed enormously in this period, with Greek city states starting to build their first temples. The power of a nation or state is often reflected in its architecture. In the East, there were many powerful rulers who governed vast swathes of territory and large population masses who had to be kept complacent: impressive architecture has always helped make this task easier. This was a very different situation to Greece, which was highly fragmented. The Eastern temple fulfilled a unifying role for the people and was often used as a rallying point. Eastern kings utilised temples to gain fealty as they often held the highest priestly office. Power tended not to be concentrated in the hands of one individual in Greece, but the temple nonetheless helped provide a sense of identity and strength. Greek temples were a visual display of the power and influence of an individual city and its ability to construct monuments to its gods. The religious art of the period shows some of the influences that the Greeks took on board, with the site of Artemis Orthia showing links with the East through ivory and masks. The appearance, too, of the Gorgon in art and as decoration is also likely to have come via Phoenicia.

[damian]

Dragan, even greek scitentists are admiting this (со пола уста ама мораат што да прават)

This is from ANTHROPOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION OF GREECE
Non profitable scientific society, founded by Dr Aris N. Poulianos

1. article: Macedonians, Americans and Turks

http://aee.gr/english/99what_new/08/0803%20Macedonians%20etc/Macedonians.htm

Beside obvious and very well known greek propaganda they must admit this:

A fact that many people ignore (some intentionally, most not) is that from the anthropological point of view the Slav-speaking residents of FYROM, in their overwhelming majority, do not have a Slavic origin. Thus, although being Slav-speaking, are not Slavs (as neither Serbs etc), but autochthonous population descendants.

2. article: THE ORIGIN OF THE GREEKS BY ARIS N. POULIANOS

(1961, 1964, 1968, 1988)

(The book is sold out, but soon will be republished).

http://aee.gr/english/4greeks_origin/greeks_origin.html

Avgi, 6-1-1962: “Over 150 scientists of the University and the Academy of Moscow have fully agreed with the scientific views of Mr. Aris. Poulianos, underlining the seriousness of the research, and without sparing their expressions, they spoke with praising words about him. Dr S. A. Tocarev, professor of ethnography in the University of Moscow and head of the Department of Ethnography regarding the peoples of Europe at the Institute of Ethnography of the Moscow Academy of Sciences, stated the following:
.......................... (and now the funny part So far, concerning same issue it was generally accepted in science that contemporary Greeks historically have very few common elements with the ancient Greeks founders of the ancient civilization, and that contemporary Greeks in their greatest part represent descendants of Slavs (Read Macedonians), Albanians and other peoples who migrated in Greece and blended with the Greeks of the Byzantine era. Contrary, the writer of the present study, convincingly and based on analogous material, showed that whatever the influence of Slavs (Read Macedonians), and other peoples who came in contact with the Greeks was, the people of modern Greece is basically descendant of the ancient population of the Balkans and the Aegean islands. (With other words they need Macedonians to proof theirs connection with ancient people )))) ) .......................

And something from The well known Greek propagandistic "Anthropology blog by Dienekes Pontikos

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11/finally-structure-in-haplogroup-r1a.html

......................... 3. The samples from Greece (N=263), Macedonian Greeks (N=57), and Crete (N=361) have R-M458 frequency of 4.2, 8.8, and 2.2%. Assuming a frequency of R-M458 at 36.4% in ancestral Slavs, as in south Poland, the admixture estimates are 11.5, 24, 6%. These should probably be interpreted as upper limits (plus statistical margins) because the highest present-day frequency of R-M458 is probably lower than that in early Slavs.


4. Interestingly, the ethnic Macedonians from R. Macedonia* have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%, barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that they Macedonians of R.M.* are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong, just as (ii) the claim of some Macedonian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong. The actual truth is that the ethnic Macedonians from R. of Macedonia are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language.


Actually Greeks have more Slavic genes then Macedonians (5% vs 3.8%) ))

It begs the question where did the Greeks come from I mean their language etc if theyre not indigeneous to the Balkans or did they evolve there from pregreek stratum and Eastern influences-migrations etc?

[Carlin]

The Roman poet Ovid describes the Greeks of the Trojan War as Pelasgians in his Metamorphoses:

Sadly his father, Priam, mourned for him,
not knowing that young Aesacus had assumed
wings on his shoulders, and was yet alive.
Then also Hector with his brothers made
complete but unavailing sacrifice,
upon a tomb which bore his carved name.
Paris was absent. But soon afterwards,
he brought into that land a ravished wife,
Helen, the cause of a disastrous war,
together with a thousand ships, and all
the great Pelasgian nation.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D12%3Acard%3D1

PS:

Herodotus: ".. we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language"; "The Pelasgi ... were, as I think, a barbarian race"

http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.mb.txt

[Carlin]

Diodorus of Sicily

Excerpts from BOOK 1. 96 to 98 -

On those Greeks, renowned for their learning, who visited Egypt and upon acquiring much useful knowledge brought it to Greece (chaps. 96 ff.).

96. But now that we have examined these matters, we must enumerate what Greeks, who have won fame for their wisdom and learning, visited Egypt in ancient times, in order to become acquainted with its customs and learning. For the priests of Egypt recount from the records of their sacred books that they were visited in early times by Orpheus, Musaeus, Melampus, and Daedalus, also by the poet Homer and Lycurgus of Sparta, later by Solon of Athens and the philosopher Plato, and that there also came Pythagoras of Samos and the mathematician Eudoxus,* as well as Democritus of Abdera and Oenopides of Chios. As evidence for the visits of all these men they point in some cases to their statues and in others to places or buildings** which bear their names, and they offer proofs from the branch of learning which one of these men pursued, arguing that all the things for which they were admired among the Greeks were transferred from Egypt.

* - The famous astronomer, geographer, and mathematician of Cnidus, pupil of Plato. His stay in Egypt is well attested.
** - For instance, according to Strabo (17. 1. 29), in Heliopolis were pointed out the houses where Plato and Eudoxus had stopped.

Orpheus, for instance, brought from Egypt most of his mystic ceremonies, the orgiastic rites that accompanied his wanderings, and his fabulous account of his experiences in Hades. For the rite of Osiris is the same as that of Dionysius and that of Isis very similar to that of Demeter, the names alone having been interchanged; and the punishments in Hades of the unrighteous, the Fields of the Righteous, and the fantastic conceptions, current among the many, which are figments of the imagination - all these were introduced by Orpheus in imitation of the Egyptian funeral customs.

97. And as proof of the presence of Homer in Egypt they adduce various pieces of evidence, and especially the healing drink which brings forgetfulness of all past evils, which was given by Helen to Telemachus in the home of Menelaus.

98. Lycurgus also and Plato and Solon, they say, incorporated many Egyptian customs into their own legislation. And Pythagoras learned from the Egyptians his teachings about the gods, his geometrical propositions and theory of numbers, as well as the transmigration of the soul into every living thing. Democritus* also, as they assert, spent five years among them and was instructed in many matters relating to astrology. Oenopides likewise passed some time with the priests and astrologers and learned among other things about the orbit of the sun, that it has an oblique course and moves in a direction opposite to that of the other stars.** Like the others, Eudoxus studied astrology with them and acquired a notable fame for the great amount of useful knowledge which he disseminated among the Greeks.

* - Democritus of Abdera, the distinguished scientist of the fifth century B.C., author of the "atomic" theory.
** - Oenopides of Chios was a mathematician and astronomer of the fifth century B.C.