Greece, History, Truth

[Mistracona]

Hi Nexus:

You have clearly explained your objection to the word Slav. I am not one of those who have ever thought of the word "Slav" being a pejorative term, nor do I immediately recall hearing it being used in a particularly negative way. My use of the word is to denote a multi-national and widely-difused European people.

Personally, what I think of first when I hear the word "Slav" is the monumental and almost incredible heroism of the Russian people against the Nazis in (the then) Stalingrad and (the then) Leningrad.

I have no agenda in this matter. However, I want to be a polite guest, and now that I am aware of your sensibilities I will try to refrain from using it. We agree that it is acceptable in reference to the language and there might be historical references that might make it unavoidable no matter how hard I try. I hope that you will accept that I have never used it here in a condescending or pejorative way.

Do the Serbs, the Bulgarians, the Montenegrins and others also feel the same way about the word?

[George S.]

mistracona i presume you are greek??If so then the slavs went in to greece as well .So why don't you call yourselves slavs.The problem is given that the slavs went to serbia,albania,macedonia,bulgaria,greece,turkey.Gr eece likes to think the slavs killed off the macedonians.The macedonians only spoke greek according to the greeks.Well that is a lie
because the same thing happened in greece do we apply the same analogy???
The slavs had some sort of linguistic influence on the macedonians.Contrary to greek claims that macedonians of old only spoke greek and nothing else is totally wrong.The macedonians had their own ancient macedonian.Completely different from the greeks it was said the greeks did not understand it.So language && speech is not one thing that binds greeks & macedonians together.So the use of slva is a smear campaign to rob macedonians of their true legacy & that is they are macedonian.So macedonians being greek is only to legitimise the greek claim to macedonia that the macedonians were greek & only spoke greek.This is pure propaganda as mentioned that the slav label is only used to discredit the real macedonians & forward to greeks the macedonian legacy.
look at the way the serbs presented to the macedonians telling them they are slavs Where is a slav from ??where is a country from?where is the language from.No body really knows the more one pushes it the more one concludes it's a means to trick people to beleive that they are not macedonian.
So in essence the real macedonians sdidn't seem to dissappear & in their place slavs appear.That is wrong,the real macedonians stayed & absorbed the slav influence but not to their detriment.So macedonians are still linked to the ancients & are still macedonians.

[Mistracona]

@George S.

Thank you for posting your passionately-held opinions and your personal observations. You made it quite clear where your feelings lie.

[EricTheRed]

If the Macedonians managed to survive from ancient times despite all foreign influence, why did the far more numerous Greeks(more than 11 million during the times of Ptolemaic Egypt) suddenly dissappear from the face of the earth, as many of you guys claim here?

No genocide against the Greeks took place, since they were the most civilized of the populations living in the Roman Empire, and actually continued it later on, even after Rome itself fell.

About that bs that the ancient greeks were extinct during Constantine's time, consider this:

146 b.c.: Greek peninsula conquered(greeks existed at that time)
88 b.c.: Athens and other city states revolt (greeks still existed)
66-67 a.d.: Nero participated in Olympic games, proclaiming all Greeks free(typical Nero bs, but proves point-greeks still existed)

After these dates, Christianity was beginning to take deep roots, as Paul had preached to many greek territories. Greece later on became one of the most religious areas of the Empire.

So, if the Greeks existed till lets say 100 A.D., what happened after that and they were wiped off the face of earth? Alien invasion? Meteorites?

And ofc greek remained lingua franga for centuries to become in the Eastern provinces, becoming the official language of the Roman Empire in 620, WITH ALL GREEKS EXTINCT 500 YEARS BEFORE???

Be serious people, oke Greeks denied Macedonia's identity, but no need to make yourselves believe that Greeks dissapeared after roman conquest... it's just stupid if you think about it.

Greeks existing during (former eastern) roman empire-proven by reality(and no whacko pseudo-historians can succesfully deny that, since they will be embarassed by real scientists)

Now, lets consider what happened during the Ottoman invasion:after 1100 something the Empire was reduced to the greek core of mainland greece and asia minor coast, thus the majority of its population were Greeks. Gradually even these areas were lost, cultivating in the sacking of Constantinople in 1453. At that point, even the Emperor himself clearly stated that he was Greek(Roman influence was diminishing after all these ages). Ofc the majority of the population still spoke greek.

Did all these people dissapear from the face of the earth after 1453? Keep in mind that the Greeks at that point were even more numerous, since historical greek territories(excluding Sicily and Magna Graecia, which were the last western territories to fall in the hands of Arabs and Lombards respectively) were controlled by the Empire until almost the very end. And generally there were more people everywhere by 1450 than there were at 146 B.C..

Lets assume the Macedonians numbered around 2-3 million-and they survived almost intact during the entire Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman period(without Macedonian being spoken outside Macedonia). How did the 14-15 millions of Greeks, whose language was still like english today in east mediterrenean, disappear? Keep in mind that the Ottomans granted administration of all Christians in their Empire to the GREEK ecumenical patriarch, who created GREEK schools in Greece, sent GREEK priests to churches etc. Logic dictates that Greeks had far more chances to survive as an ethnic group than Macedonians had. Yet amazingly the outnumbered latter survived ,and all the Greeks became Albanians, Vlachs etc......



Many of you also claim that the greek language itself disappeared during Ottoman times, and it was ressurected by the Germans. BUT, during these times the Church was also the provider for the education of Christians-and Greeks had juridistiction of every Church in the Ottoman Empire. Schools did exist during Ottoman period, and they were administered by the church for Christian populations.What language did the GREEK priests send from the GREEK patriarch teach? Mantarin???? Ofc they taught them Greeks. Even Macedonians were beign taught Greek. And this system remained in effect from after the fall of Constantinople till the 19th century. Greek priests taught the greek populance greek for all these years, so Greek national consience was the first to awaken, and rebellions began, succeeding finally in 1821.

And btw, during these times, the Austrians and the Germans OPPOSED the greek revolution-there was a consencus among the Great Powers that the Ottoman Empire had to remain intact-Austria in particular was fearful, since it encompassed many foreign populations in her territories. Only Russia supported the revolution, but under pressure by the others, they handed the leaders of the first greek revolution in Moravia to the Austrians, without aiding them. The British wanted to keep Russia away from Bosporus, so they supported the integrity of the Ottoman Empire, while the French were 2 busy dealing with the aftermath of Napoleon's defeat and the brief restoration of monarchy. The Germans were still not unified, so they didnt have much to say in affairs far away from Prussia.

My point? The Great Powers did not support the revolution at the beginning, so ofc they werent the ones who told the supposed Arvanites, Albanians etc to act like Greeks and revolt-they didnt even want to hear about another revolution, memories of the French one were 2 recent. So, it was the GREEK people who began their fight for indepedence. The Great Powers intervened later, becausese they were pressed by public opinion on one hand(oppressed Christians vs Muslim rulers) and Russia was ready to intervene by itself, thus securing a monopoly of influence upon the new state, something which the British would not tolerate, since the Mediterrenean was their turf. Hence, the sea battle of Navarino, to ensure that no Great Power would have a monopoly of influence on greece.

If you search about all these stuff indepedently, you will find almost all of the sources confirm what I wrotte. Dont focus on a certain German joke of a historian who was the first to deny the modern greek as greeks(he wasnt even a historian), see what other certified researchers state.

By all means, if Greeks really did dissappear, even with all the influence they had and theur numbers, how did the far less Macedonians survive? Yet again, there is no recorded use of the Macedonian language en masse until 100 years ago(i dont deny its existence, but I really dont know any period until today that Macedonian was actually spoken by bast populaces-unlike Greek).

This game of ethnicity denial has to end, both by Greeks and Macedonians. Lastly, let the long dead stay in their graves, for we will never learn with absolute certainity if Alexander was Macedonian, Greek, Roman, Phoenician, Thracian or whatever else. Lets just say that today you are Macedonians and we are Greeks.

[momce]

If the Macedonians managed to survive from ancient times despite all foreign influence, why did the far more numerous Greeks(more than 11 million during the times of Ptolemaic Egypt) suddenly dissappear from the face of the earth, as many of you guys claim here?

No genocide against the Greeks took place, since they were the most civilized of the populations living in the Roman Empire, and actually continued it later on, even after Rome itself fell.

About that bs that the ancient greeks were extinct during Constantine's time, consider this:

146 b.c.: Greek peninsula conquered(greeks existed at that time)
88 b.c.: Athens and other city states revolt (greeks still existed)
66-67 a.d.: Nero participated in Olympic games, proclaiming all Greeks free(typical Nero bs, but proves point-greeks still existed)

After these dates, Christianity was beginning to take deep roots, as Paul had preached to many greek territories. Greece later on became one of the most religious areas of the Empire.

So, if the Greeks existed till lets say 100 A.D., what happened after that and they were wiped off the face of earth? Alien invasion? Meteorites?

And ofc greek remained lingua franga for centuries to become in the Eastern provinces, becoming the official language of the Roman Empire in 620, WITH ALL GREEKS EXTINCT 500 YEARS BEFORE???

Be serious people, oke Greeks denied Macedonia's identity, but no need to make yourselves believe that Greeks dissapeared after roman conquest... it's just stupid if you think about it.

Greeks existing during (former eastern) roman empire-proven by reality(and no whacko pseudo-historians can succesfully deny that, since they will be embarassed by real scientists)

Now, lets consider what happened during the Ottoman invasion:after 1100 something the Empire was reduced to the greek core of mainland greece and asia minor coast, thus the majority of its population were Greeks. Gradually even these areas were lost, cultivating in the sacking of Constantinople in 1453. At that point, even the Emperor himself clearly stated that he was Greek(Roman influence was diminishing after all these ages). Ofc the majority of the population still spoke greek.

Did all these people dissapear from the face of the earth after 1453? Keep in mind that the Greeks at that point were even more numerous, since historical greek territories(excluding Sicily and Magna Graecia, which were the last western territories to fall in the hands of Arabs and Lombards respectively) were controlled by the Empire until almost the very end. And generally there were more people everywhere by 1450 than there were at 146 B.C..

Lets assume the Macedonians numbered around 2-3 million-and they survived almost intact during the entire Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman period(without Macedonian being spoken outside Macedonia). How did the 14-15 millions of Greeks, whose language was still like english today in east mediterrenean, disappear? Keep in mind that the Ottomans granted administration of all Christians in their Empire to the GREEK ecumenical patriarch, who created GREEK schools in Greece, sent GREEK priests to churches etc. Logic dictates that Greeks had far more chances to survive as an ethnic group than Macedonians had. Yet amazingly the outnumbered latter survived ,and all the Greeks became Albanians, Vlachs etc......



Many of you also claim that the greek language itself disappeared during Ottoman times, and it was ressurected by the Germans. BUT, during these times the Church was also the provider for the education of Christians-and Greeks had juridistiction of every Church in the Ottoman Empire. Schools did exist during Ottoman period, and they were administered by the church for Christian populations.What language did the GREEK priests send from the GREEK patriarch teach? Mantarin???? Ofc they taught them Greeks. Even Macedonians were beign taught Greek. And this system remained in effect from after the fall of Constantinople till the 19th century. Greek priests taught the greek populance greek for all these years, so Greek national consience was the first to awaken, and rebellions began, succeeding finally in 1821.

And btw, during these times, the Austrians and the Germans OPPOSED the greek revolution-there was a consencus among the Great Powers that the Ottoman Empire had to remain intact-Austria in particular was fearful, since it encompassed many foreign populations in her territories. Only Russia supported the revolution, but under pressure by the others, they handed the leaders of the first greek revolution in Moravia to the Austrians, without aiding them. The British wanted to keep Russia away from Bosporus, so they supported the integrity of the Ottoman Empire, while the French were 2 busy dealing with the aftermath of Napoleon's defeat and the brief restoration of monarchy. The Germans were still not unified, so they didnt have much to say in affairs far away from Prussia.

My point? The Great Powers did not support the revolution at the beginning, so ofc they werent the ones who told the supposed Arvanites, Albanians etc to act like Greeks and revolt-they didnt even want to hear about another revolution, memories of the French one were 2 recent. So, it was the GREEK people who began their fight for indepedence. The Great Powers intervened later, becausese they were pressed by public opinion on one hand(oppressed Christians vs Muslim rulers) and Russia was ready to intervene by itself, thus securing a monopoly of influence upon the new state, something which the British would not tolerate, since the Mediterrenean was their turf. Hence, the sea battle of Navarino, to ensure that no Great Power would have a monopoly of influence on greece.

If you search about all these stuff indepedently, you will find almost all of the sources confirm what I wrotte. Dont focus on a certain German joke of a historian who was the first to deny the modern greek as greeks(he wasnt even a historian), see what other certified researchers state.

By all means, if Greeks really did dissappear, even with all the influence they had and theur numbers, how did the far less Macedonians survive? Yet again, there is no recorded use of the Macedonian language en masse until 100 years ago(i dont deny its existence, but I really dont know any period until today that Macedonian was actually spoken by bast populaces-unlike Greek).

This game of ethnicity denial has to end, both by Greeks and Macedonians. Lastly, let the long dead stay in their graves, for we will never learn with absolute certainity if Alexander was Macedonian, Greek, Roman, Phoenician, Thracian or whatever else. Lets just say that today you are Macedonians and we are Greeks.

Great. So end your administration of Macedonia then. No one wanted it. The Ottoman occupation really showed what areas are really grecophone as the greeks lost their political control over other territories. Those areas have been outlined in the forum in some detail. Really greece occupation of Macedonia was something of a fluke. Macedonia easily could have become an independant federation. Solun could easily have become an international city. greece claims in Macedonia were dubious as evens of her politician admitted.

so if Macedonia was greek by your logic where did all the greeks in Macedonia go(since you claim there were no genocide against them) since they were always a small minority of grecophones mostly clustered around old cultural-economic settlements..?

It may be that grecophones reverted to their pregreek heritage once ancient greece lost its political power.

[Carlin]

If the Macedonians managed to survive from ancient times despite all foreign influence, why did the far more numerous Greeks(more than 11 million during the times of Ptolemaic Egypt) suddenly dissappear from the face of the earth, as many of you guys claim here?

No genocide against the Greeks took place, since they were the most civilized of the populations living in the Roman Empire, and actually continued it later on, even after Rome itself fell.

About that bs that the ancient greeks were extinct during Constantine's time, consider this:

146 b.c.: Greek peninsula conquered(greeks existed at that time)
88 b.c.: Athens and other city states revolt (greeks still existed)
66-67 a.d.: Nero participated in Olympic games, proclaiming all Greeks free(typical Nero bs, but proves point-greeks still existed)

After these dates, Christianity was beginning to take deep roots, as Paul had preached to many greek territories. Greece later on became one of the most religious areas of the Empire.

So, if the Greeks existed till lets say 100 A.D., what happened after that and they were wiped off the face of earth? Alien invasion? Meteorites?

And ofc greek remained lingua franga for centuries to become in the Eastern provinces, becoming the official language of the Roman Empire in 620, WITH ALL GREEKS EXTINCT 500 YEARS BEFORE???

1) Professor Thanos Veremis, President of Greece's National Council of Education and founding member of the influential think-tank Hellenic Foundation for Defence and Foreign Policy (better known by its Greek acronym, ELIAMEP) made the following statement:

"Unfortunately, we (Greeks) are deeply conservative as a society. This (ethnic) homogeneity has been harmful (to us). The situation during the 19th century was different. It was rather fortunate that at that time Koraes and others had the inspiration to connect us with Ancient Hellas (an undertaking) which became the main (pre)occupation of the newly born State. In those days, there were Arvanites, Vlachs and Slavs. All of them had to become (part of) one (national body). And so they became. But this is not to say that in this day and age (we/they) should be under the illusion that (we/they) are descendants of Pericles. This (assimilating process of ethnic/national homogenization) might have been helpful before -even though we could not avoid a civil war- but it does not help us nowadays. Today we are not alone. We are surrounded by many neighbors. The (Greek) society must adapt (to new realities) instead of remaining insular and introvert."

2) We learn from Tacitus that even in his time the race of Athenians was extinct:

Now Cneius Piso, hurrying to the execution of his purposes, terrified the city of Athens by a tempestuous entry, and reproached them in a severe speech, with oblique censure of Germanicus, that, debasing the dignity of the Roman name, he had paid excessive court, not to the Athenians, by so many slaughters long since extinct, but to the then mixed scum of nations there

3)
- Strabonis geographicorum epitome:

Unknown author, known simply as Epitomiser of Strabo. Lived during the 10th century AD. According to him, at the end of the 10th century AD, Slavs formed almost the entire population of Macedonia, Epirus, continental Greece, and the Peloponnese.

"Και νυν δε πάσαν Ηπειρων και Ελλάδα σχεδόν και Πελοποννησο και Μακεδονίαν Σκύθαι Σκλάβοι νέμονται" (p. 574):

"...Scythi-Slavs inhabit all Epirus, almost entire Greece, Peloponnese and Macedonia."

- Menander asserts in 581 AD that Slavs, in great numbers (100,000), devastated Greece.

- In 588/9 AD, according to the statement of Evagrius, all Greece was laid waste with fire and sword.

- A letter of Patriarch Nicolaus, addressed to Alexius the First, mentions that in the year 807 AD Slavs (and Avars) had held possession of the Peloponnese since 589 AD. Apparently, they had made themselves so independent that no Roman/"Byzantine" connected with Imperial administration then dared to enter the country/Peloponnese.

- According to Roman/"Byzantine" traveler Cananus, writing in 1418 AD, the Slavonic tongue was spoken in Zygos (Exo Mani), i.e. the area roughly between Itylo and Kalamata. Many scholars believe that Maniots of this area were descended from the Slavonic Melingians.

- Goths devastate and depopulate Greece in 3rd Century AD.

4) Recommended additional links:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=130692

http://news.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_2_10/08/2008_280821

"..the Peloponnese consisted mostly, if not entirely, of Vlachs and Albanians.."

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6633

[momce]

1) Professor Thanos Veremis, President of Greece's National Council of Education and founding member of the influential think-tank Hellenic Foundation for Defence and Foreign Policy (better known by its Greek acronym, ELIAMEP) made the following statement:

"Unfortunately, we (Greeks) are deeply conservative as a society. This (ethnic) homogeneity has been harmful (to us). The situation during the 19th century was different. It was rather fortunate that at that time Koraes and others had the inspiration to connect us with Ancient Hellas (an undertaking) which became the main (pre)occupation of the newly born State. In those days, there were Arvanites, Vlachs and Slavs. All of them had to become (part of) one (national body). And so they became. But this is not to say that in this day and age (we/they) should be under the illusion that (we/they) are descendants of Pericles. This (assimilating process of ethnic/national homogenization) might have been helpful before -even though we could not avoid a civil war- but it does not help us nowadays. Today we are not alone. We are surrounded by many neighbors. The (Greek) society must adapt (to new realities) instead of remaining insular and introvert."

2) We learn from Tacitus that even in his time the race of Athenians was extinct:

Now Cneius Piso, hurrying to the execution of his purposes, terrified the city of Athens by a tempestuous entry, and reproached them in a severe speech, with oblique censure of Germanicus, that, debasing the dignity of the Roman name, he had paid excessive court, not to the Athenians, by so many slaughters long since extinct, but to the then mixed scum of nations there

3)
- Strabonis geographicorum epitome:

Unknown author, known simply as Epitomiser of Strabo. Lived during the 10th century AD. According to him, at the end of the 10th century AD, Slavs formed almost the entire population of Macedonia, Epirus, continental Greece, and the Peloponnese.

"Και νυν δε πάσαν Ηπειρων και Ελλάδα σχεδόν και Πελοποννησο και Μακεδονίαν Σκύθαι Σκλάβοι νέμονται" (p. 574):

"...Scythi-Slavs inhabit all Epirus, almost entire Greece, Peloponnese and Macedonia."

- Menander asserts in 581 AD that Slavs, in great numbers (100,000), devastated Greece.

- In 588/9 AD, according to the statement of Evagrius, all Greece was laid waste with fire and sword.

- A letter of Patriarch Nicolaus, addressed to Alexius the First, mentions that in the year 807 AD Slavs (and Avars) had held possession of the Peloponnese since 589 AD. Apparently, they had made themselves so independent that no Roman/"Byzantine" connected with Imperial administration then dared to enter the country/Peloponnese.

- According to Roman/"Byzantine" traveler Cananus, writing in 1418 AD, the Slavonic tongue was spoken in Zygos (Exo Mani), i.e. the area roughly between Itylo and Kalamata. Many scholars believe that Maniots of this area were descended from the Slavonic Melingians.

- Goths devastate and depopulate Greece in 3rd Century AD.

4) Recommended additional links:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=130692

http://news.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_2_10/08/2008_280821

"..the Peloponnese consisted mostly, if not entirely, of Vlachs and Albanians.."

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=6633

Interesting. I think those later "invasions" were probably not new things and these people were following routes they had always followed but which became blocked during the ancient greece period. Probably what later became known as "greece" was a surplus population centre for Northern cultures("dorians", "slavs" etc).

[TrueMacedonian]

I guess this is going to go in here. Typically modern grk propaganda asserts that there is no "Macedonian" nationality and that children in the civil war were "abducted by force". Loring Danforth and Riki Van Boeschoten wrote a superb book which examines all the facts from official United Nations documents to oral testimonies. I will be posted much from this book where it concerns lies and propaganda from todays grk.





The picture above is more grk evidence of a seperate Macedonian nationality.

[TrueMacedonian]

[TrueMacedonian]

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013/03/24/tragic-end-of-1821s-greek-heroes/

Tragic End of 1821′s Greek Heroes
By Stella Tsolakidou on March 24, 2013 in Featured, History, News

The Greek War of Independence commenced in 1821 and waged until 1832when the Greek free state was finally established under the blessings and the needs of the then powerful allies of the Greek revolutionaries, the British, the French and the Russian. The national day celebrated on March 25th pays tribute to all men, women and children who lost their lives for the dream of a sovereign free country, and especially to the heroes of the Greek Revolution that risked their lives for freedom from the Ottoman Empire. But as always, there are black pages in every history book of the world, and Greece’s were not an exception. Although it goes mostly unnoticed, the fact is that many Greek captains of the Revolution were sent to jail during and after the war against the Ottomans. Others were pushed aside by the newly formed state as too dangerous for the common good or too unpredictable for the reigning forces.

Here follow some of the most exemplary and tragic stories of the Greek captains of 1821, who ended up underprivileged, captured, begging on the streets and even dead.

Nikitas Stamatelopoulos or Nikitaras or the Turk-eater died in September 25, 1849, totally forgotten and poor.The brave and honorable man who stood out in the battle of Dervenakia and was told to have broken three swords with his fury in the battlefield, was groundlessly accused of conspiracy against King Otto and was sent to prison first in Palamidi (along with his uncle and Revolution captain Theodoros Kolokotronis) and then on the island of Aegina.

When the then Greek Prime Minister Ioannis Kolettis asked him to kill a rival and former captain of the Greek Independence war, Odysseas Androutsos, in exchange for a government position, Nikitaras refused the offer and became angry with Kolettis. He also refused to take booty after the victorious battle of Tripolis, a normal practice of Balkan irregulars at the time.

Nikitaras was released from prison in 1841, but the period in jail broke his health and he was almost blind due to diabetes problems. The Greek state refused to grant him and his family any descent pension to make a living, but instead allowed him to beg before a Virgin Mary church every Friday. In 1843, when King Otto was forced to sign the Constitution, Nikitaras was given the title of major general and an insignificant pension. He died in 1849 in Piraeus.

A major hero of the Greek War of Independence, Odysseas Androutsos earned the title of Commander in Chief of the Greek forces in Roumeli, but his glory did not last long. His intense personality and constant conflicts with the “kalamarades” as he called the politicians and the clergy resulted in making him suspicious of the politics followed at the time. In spring 1822 Ioannis Kolettis accused him of betrayal and cooperation with the Ottomans, so that Androutsos gave up his title as Commander in Chief but never gave up his fighting against them. Seieng through the scheming of politics, Androutsos retired in a cave, the Black Hole, totally disappointed with the newly emerged state of the Greeks after the independence war.

There, in his cave north of Parnassus Mountain, Androutsos’ isolation made Kolettis and his enemies even more suspicious of his intentions and soon he was accused of making agreements with the enemy against the interests of the Greeks. Androutsos, however, is said to have called for the cooperation of the Ottomans in order to take them by surprise and fight them from the inside. The arrest of Kolokotronis made Andoutsos even more hostile towards politicians. Then the government in 1825 assigned to Yiannis Gouras, a close lieutenant of Androutsos, with the mission to take care of Androutsos. Androutsos finally surrendered to the government forces and was led to an Athens prison. Karaiskakis, another major figure of the Greek Independence war, was outraged by his imprisonment and even attempted to rescue his fellow fighter. The attempt failed and to cool things down Gouras asked for the government’s help.

The trial date for Androutsos was pending now, but on June 5 at midnight Gouras gave the order and five men including an unknown priest entered Androutsos’ cage and killed him after hours of torture. The lifeless body of Androutsos was then pushed off the prison tower of Goula down to the Temple of Athena Nike of the Acropolis. Androutsos’ death was declared as a failed escape attempt.

Laskarina Bouboulina was a Greek naval commander and heroine of the Greek Revolution. Being married twice to prosperous husbands, Bouboulina bought arms and ammunition at her own expense and brought them secretly to the island of Spetses on her ships, to fight for the sake of her nation. Construction of her ship Agamemnon was finished in 1820. She bribed Turkish officials to ignore the ship’s size and it was later one of the largest warships in the hands of Greek rebels. She also organized her own armed troops, composed of men from Spetses. She used most of her fortune to provide food and ammunition for the sailors and soldiers under her command.

The people of Spetses revolted on 3 April, and later joined forces with ships from other Greek islands. Bouboulina sailed with eight ships to Nafplion and began a naval blockade. Later she took part in the naval blockade and capture of Monemvasia and Pylos.

When the opposing factions erupted into the second civil war in 1824, the Greek government arrested Bouboulina for her family connection with now-imprisoned Kolokotronis; the government also killed her son-in-law Panos Kolokotronis. With the order to be arrested, she was exiled back to Spetses poor and disappointed by the new Greek reality. In 1825, while Ibrahim Pasha of Egypt disembarked in Pylos in a final attempt to smother the revolution, Bouboulina began preparing for new battles despite her animosity towards the politicians. However, on May 22 of the same year, Bouboulina would die a tragic death. Her younger son from her first marriage fell in love with the daughter of the powerful Koutsaios family of Spetses and the couple fled to the house of Bouboulina’s first husband. Bouboulina and the Koutsaios soon arrives at the house and after a long and furious dispute, Ioannis Koutsis shot her in the head fatally. The case was closed and no-one ever put the perpetratorson on trial.

Manto Mavrogenous was a Greek heroine of the Greek War of Independence. A rich woman, who spent all her fortune on the Hellenic cause. Under her encouragement, her European friends contributed money and guns to the revolution. When the struggle began, she went to Mykonos, the island of her origin, and invited the leaders there to join the revolution.

She equipped, manned and “privatized” at her own expense, two ships with which she pursued the pirates who attacked Mykonos and other islands of the Cyclades. She also equipped 150 men to campaign in the Peloponnese and sent forces and financial support to Samos, when the island was threatened by the Turks. Later, Mavrogenous sent another corps of fifty men to Peloponnese, who took part in the Siege of Tripolitsa and the fall of the town to the Greek rebels. She spent money on the relief of the soldiers and their families, the preparation of a campaign to Northern Greece and the support of several philhellenes. She also sent a group of fifty men to reinforce Nikitaras in the Battle of Dervenakia.

She moved to Nafplio in 1823, in order to be in the core of the struggle, leaving her family as she was despised even by her mother because of her choices. After her unfortunate love story with Dimitrios Ypsilantis, Mavrogenous lived depressed for a while in Nafplion. After Ypsilanti’s death and her political conflicts with Ioannis Kolettis, she was exiled from Nafplio and returned to Mykonos to live in extreme poverty. When the war ended, Greek Prime Minister Ioannis Kapodistrias awarded her the rank of the Lieutenant General and granted her a dwelling in Nafplio, where she moved. She left for the island of Paros in 1840, where she died in July 1848, in oblivion and poverty.

[TrueMacedonian]

One thing this article I posted above convenietly leaves out is that all these heroes are Albanian. It's ok. We all know what they are anyways.

[TrueMacedonian]

http://www.academia.edu/1109168/Still_waiting_for_the_barbarians_The_making_of_the_Slavs_in_Dark-Age_Greece

[TrueMacedonian]

[Carlin]

The process of the creation of the modern Greek ethnic identity (and what did the term "Romaioi" mean even two centuries ago)

1) One of the most prolific authors of teaching books in the Greek language in the Balkans before the War of Independence was Dimitrios Darvaris (1757-1823) from Kleisoura in Macedonia – a village usually known to outsiders at that time as Vlachokleisoura because its inhabitants were Aromanian-speakers. Darvaris’s father and four brothers were merchants in the Habsburg Empire, and the brothers funded the free distribution of his books to Greek schools. In 1806 he published a Simple-Greek [i.e. Modern Greek] Grammar for the Use of the Omogeneis in Vienna. In Greece nowadays the word omogeneis refers almost exclusively to members of the Greek diaspora abroad, but in Darvaris’s time it had preserved its non-specific meaning of ‘members of the same nation’. When discussing certain aspects of Greek grammar, Darvaris provides equivalents in what he calls ‘our Vlach language’, and he writes these equivalents in the Latin alphabet. The omogeneis for whom his Grammar ‘of the common dialect of the Greeks (Graikoi)’ was intended were clearly Aromanian-speakers. Unlike Doukas (who was also Aromanian), who tried to make people into Hellenes by teaching them what were called ta ellinika grammata (Hellenic letters), Darvaris did not identify himself as a Greek; rather, he wanted to teach Greek (ta koina grammata [common letters]) chiefly for ecclesiastical and commercial purposes.

2) Another Aromanian, Constantine Roža, published a book in German and Greek entitled Investigations Concerning the Romans or so-called Vlachs who Reside Beyond the Danube. Roža, who was born in Bitola, calls the Aromanians Romaioi and writes that “we” are descended from the “palaioi Romanoi [old Romans]”.

3) On the steep, precipitous escarpment of the western sides of the Pindos mountains, the small town of Kalarrytes crouches on sharp and wild rocks, thus making access extremely difficult and dangerous. On the opposite side lies Syrrako and in between the deep ravine of Skala, washed by the Kalarrytinos, the violent tributary river of Arachthos.

Pouqueville, the French Consul to the court of Ali Pasha, after his visit to the inaccessible small town in 1815 was dazzled by the wilderness of the landscape, and wrote that the place was meant for hawks and eagles and not peaceful people, lovers of art.

In Ali's time, the small town of Kalarrytes consisted of 525 families of Vlachs, who ransomed their autonomy by paying a yearly tax to the Valide Sultana.

In winter, when Pindos was cut off from the rest of the world by snow, the people of Kalarrytes, basically shepherds, came down to the valley of Thessaly and earned their living by trading their milk products. Those who could not make a living by cattle raising, turned to trade and craftsmanship. The main objects of these activities were cotton wool of Macedonia and Thessaly, silk of Aya, thick woollen textiles for the capes of the Albanians and the sailors of Adriatica, untreated skins, furs and gold embroidered cloths. The result was financial prosperity for the Kalarrytes' population and the establishment of markets in the principal commercial cities of the time, such as Naples, Genoa, Sardenia, Venice, Trieste, Vienna, Constantinople and Moscow. The financial prosperity was inevitably followed by the intellectual flourishing of this town of Epirus. When visited by Pouqueville the people of Kalarrytes were fluent in foreign languages and possessed libraries with literature of both foreign and Greek classical works.

... the most famous silverware of contemporary Greece was created in Kalarrytes' workshops by native craftsmen.

In 1821, during the conflict between the armies of Hoursit and Ali, when the Turks conquered and uprooted the people of Kalarrytes, the most famous silver craftsmen took refuge in the peaceful Eptanesa (the Ionian Islands), where they continued their art and become world famous particularly because of their ecclesiastical pieces of art. Tzemoures, Bafas, Papamoschos, Papageorghiou, Polychronides, are some of the names of the great silversmiths of Kalarrytes, whose memory was to be respected by countless generations of Greeks. It is said that Demetrios Papageorghiou was paid a golden sovereign for each stroke of his chisel. Among the orders placed by well-to-do ladies of Eptanesa with Spyridon Papamoschos it was one for a gold trimmed wine mug, mastrapas as it was called, which they offered to Lady Douglas, wife of the British High Commissioner, before her departure from Corfu in 1841.

Today, the world famous jewellery shop "Bulgari" of Rome, has its origins in the old goldsmith generation of Kalarrytes.

-Dyo Megaloi Mastori tou Asemiou (Two Great Silversmiths): Athanasios Tzemoures [kai] Georgios Diamantes Mpaphas, by Pope Zora. (Athens, 1972)

[George S.]

yes rommaoi simply means roman that's at one point of greek recognition ofthemselves.In contrast the greeks have never been considered as Macedonians.