Greece, History, Truth

[TrueMacedonian]

@ TrueMacedonian:

Your issue then is only with the word "ethnicity." You agree with the part of the quote that says "modern slavs both Macedonian and Bulgarian cannot establish a link with antiquity as the slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom."

The Greeks most definitely have a DNA/biological connection to the Slavic peoples. To some extent, the two peoples are the same. The peoples even have a cultural connection since the Orthodox Church was adopted by the Slavic people and the Slavic alphabet came through missionaries of that Greek-speaking church. Presumably and to the best of my knowledge, before Cyril and Methodius the Slavic language was not a written one.

The Greeks have a linguistic connection to antiquity. It is well-recognised empirically and academically in universities, in texts and museums throughout the world and established and even affirmed on a daily basis as you see throughout the world's media reporting on the modern Greek financial crisis endless illustrations connecting the modern state to the ancient world and to ancient references (if anything it is way overdone).

What is the connection that the Slavs have with antiquity? What is the connection that the Slavic-speaking people of the ROM have with the ancient kingdom?

Borza's words are crystal-clear: "the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom." You say you "have no issue with Borza's words." Settled then.

Much of the effort on this site is "disproving" the Greek connection to antiquity. OK, for the sake of argument, there is none.

Now, What is the connection of the slavic-speaking people with antiquity? What is the connection of the Republic of Macedonia with antiquity?

Borza clearly says there is none. What do you say?

You want a clear and concise example of modern Macedonian's connection to Macedonia. Ok. Here is a perfect example:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7048

[TrueMacedonian]

Milti this is what you wrote in another topic on this forum to RistotheGreat;



Attempts to replace the unwieldly purified versions used in literature and for official purposes with the ordinary speech of the people, known as demotic, were regarded as blows directed against the feeble unity of the country and its life-giving national myths.There were riots in Athens following the publication in 1902 of a demotic version of the New Testament.
William St. Claire That Greece Might Still Be Free

The Ancient Greece evoked by Koraes was essentially the invention of Western philhellenes. Even katharevousa, although ostensibly meant to 'refine' those who spoke and wrote it, making them more elegant, wise, freedom-loving, and virtuous (although not necessarily peaceful) by eliminating from their vocabulary the barbarity of Turkish words that kept them chained to their degeneracy - even katharevousa was produced not just for the Ottomanized Greeks, but also for Western philhellenes, as Koraes reveals when he confesses that his notes, "written in our common tongue, were ready for the printers when some friends of mine - philhellenes expert in our ancient but not our modern language - eventually persuaded me to hellenize [my notes] so that they might be understood . . . by the scholars of Europe, who are ignorant of Modern Greek" (Bien 1972:51, citing Koraes 1833:41).

Such, more or less, was the first form of invented Greek nationality -the initial vision, if you will, of the myth that, replacing (or at least displacing) the Christian world-view, provided at the deepest level a metaphysical rationale for life and death: a meaning for what would otherwise be a futile, meaningless existence. No matter that it was a double distortion: a distortion of Ancient Greek reality, and a distortion as well of Modern Greek reality. It provided (and to some degree still provides) a sense of connectedness to something apparently admirable, something that matters, and something even 'eternal', for, as I mentioned earlier, no nation can imagine its own death. As for its beginning, Ancient Greek culture lay far enough back in hazy antiquity to seem never to have not been there. In sum, Greece imagined in this way as the inheritor of ancient glory was a way to cheat contigency and fate by giving existence a kind of supernal meaning.
Peter Bien Inventing Greece

I want to confirm something that goes against your statement with another scholars quote on the role of Katharevousa and national identity in modern greece. Also I want you to realize that more and more scholars have been on notice about the paranoia and absolute hysteria where it concerns modern greeks and nationalism. This is rather telling about the sort of society you come from Milti.

[Mistracona]

TrueMacedonian writes "You want a clear and concise example of modern Macedonian's connection to Macedonia. Ok. Here is a perfect example:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=7048"

No, I clearly asked for a connection between the slavic speaking people or the Republic of Macedonia to the ancient world, to the ancient Macedonian kingdom. (see my post above).

Nothing in your link refers or connects the Slavic-speaking Macedonian people, in Rpmania or anywhere else, to the ancient Macedonian kingdom or the ancient world. There is no mention whatsoever of the ancient world in your link. The name of the unfamiliar linked site "Proetnica" (sic?) is a Greek word ("proethnika).

Presumably, you misunderstood my question and now you will link me with evidence that connects the slavic-speaking people and the ROM to the ancient world. Thanks.

Interestingly, one answer to the question "what is the slavic connection to the ancient world?" is an attack on the Greeks. Typical for this site.

[TrueMacedonian]

TrueMacedonian writes "You want a clear and concise example of modern Macedonian's connection to Macedonia. Ok. Here is a perfect example:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=7048"

No, I clearly asked for a connection between the slavic speaking people or the Republic of Macedonia to the ancient world, to the ancient Macedonian kingdom. (see my post above).

Nothing in your link refers or connects the Slavic-speaking Macedonian people, in Rpmania or anywhere else, to the ancient Macedonian kingdom or the ancient world. There is no mention whatsoever of the ancient world in your link. The name of the unfamiliar linked site "Proetnica" (sic?) is a Greek word ("proethnika).

Presumably, you misunderstood my question and now you will link me with evidence that connects the slavic-speaking people and the ROM to the ancient world. Thanks.

Interestingly, one answer to the question "what is the slavic connection to the ancient world?" is an attack on the Greeks. Typical for this site.

The name Macedonia followed the Macedonians to Romania. Are we going to be moving the goal posts when certain facts don't enjoy our fancy? There is a rather nice list Soldier of Macedon put together. I recommend you search it out. This particular topic involves the validity of modern Greek claims to "hellenism" and any cultural connections to antiquity.

[Mistracona]

TrueMacedonian writes: "The name Macedonia followed the Macedonians to Romania. Are we going to be moving the goal posts when certain facts don't enjoy our fancy? There is a rather nice list Soldier of Macedon put together. I recommend you search it out. This particular topic involves the validity of modern Greek claims to "hellenism" and any cultural connections to antiquity."


I asked you to show some connection between the slavic-speaking Macedonians and the ancient world, the ancient kingdom of Macedonia.

As an answer you attacked the Greeks.

The Romania of the middle ages is not the ancient world nor the ancient kingdom of Macedonia. One has nothing to do with the other.

You have found no connection, neither linguistic nor cultural nor geographic between the people or the nation of the Republic of Macedonia and the ancient kingdom because there is none.

You have verified Borza's statement that "modern Slavs both Macedonian and Bulgarian cannot establish a link with antiquity because the Slavs entered the Balkan peninsula centuries after the demise of the macedonian kingdom."

You said that you had no problem with Borza's quote. Neither do I. We both accept it as true, then. We agree.

It is good to end a friendly discussion with mutual agreement.

PS. The word "Macedonian" is first found in the Greek-language poems of Homer. The consensus is that it is the Greek word meaning "Highlander."

[TrueMacedonian]

TrueMacedonian writes: "The name Macedonia followed the Macedonians to Romania. Are we going to be moving the goal posts when certain facts don't enjoy our fancy? There is a rather nice list Soldier of Macedon put together. I recommend you search it out. This particular topic involves the validity of modern Greek claims to "hellenism" and any cultural connections to antiquity."


I asked you to show some connection between the slavic-speaking Macedonians and the ancient world, the ancient kingdom of Macedonia.

As an answer you attacked the Greeks.

The Romania of the middle ages is not the ancient world nor the ancient kingdom of Macedonia. One has nothing to do with the other.

Excuse me but the name Macedonia followed the Macedonians to Temes. There has been a Macedonian presence ever since. I find your shifty ways quite loathsome. However since you are trying to evade this topic which is about the validity of your supposed claims to anything to do with antiquity here is some more evidence for you.

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Macedoniansymbols/MacedonianLion.html

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2151

You have found no connection, neither linguistic nor cultural nor geographic between the people or the nation of the Republic of Macedonia and the ancient kingdom because there is none.

Sure I have. You just choose to ignore the rather obviousness of the evidence I provided. The name Macedonia has been a continuos entity and it is rather clear that even in the middle ages the people knew where they came from when they settled in Romania.

You have verified Borza's statement that "modern Slavs both Macedonian and Bulgarian cannot establish a link with antiquity because the Slavs entered the Balkan peninsula centuries after the demise of the macedonian kingdom."

You said that you had no problem with Borza's quote. Neither do I. We both accept it as true, then. We agree.

It is good to end a friendly discussion with mutual agreement.

Wait a second. Your earlier post on Borza's quote was this here:

If the claim is based on ethnicity, it is an issue of a different order. Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. Only the most radical Slavic factions - mostly emigres from the United States, Canada and Australia - even attempt to establish a link to antiquity.

Yes. I agree with Borza. Anyone in the BALKANS, including todays greeks, cannot establish an link to antiquity based on Ethnicity! Yes I agree with that statement. I like how you slithering eels make these little changes. You really are the apple of your forefathers eyes who changed names of villages, cities, and towns in Macedonia
However the Macedonians of today certainly have had traditions passed down from antiquity. Easter egg decorating, for example, began in Macedonia. This tradition is very much applied in Macedonia and by Macedonians all over the world.

PS. The word "Macedonian" is first found in the Greek-language poems of Homer. The consensus is that it is the Greek word meaning "Highlander."

And let's just say for sh!ts and giggles that this is even true. What does it have to do with you and your like? You certainly have no connection to anything in antiquity least of all Macedonia. I like how you tend to move thousands of years back in time and avoid everything in between. Do you realize this or is this how you were taught in grk school to avoid any insinuations of non-greekness in your culture?

[TrueMacedonian]

Milti I would like your opinion on this:

[Mistracona]

God Bless You, TrueMacedonian.

May you "live long and prosper," as the man said.

Thank you for the experience, old friend,

M.

[TrueMacedonian]

God Bless You, TrueMacedonian.

May you "live long and prosper," as the man said.

Thank you for the experience, old friend,

M.

Gee Milti I was hoping you would give the forum your opinion about the Greek charade in Albania.

[momce]

Whatever you say whatever you think greek people live there you live know since 10000 years ago. Turks wanted Izmir they took it,also the half Cyprus. Albanians want the half Epirus.You want the half Macedonia. Now? All these years of greek culture and you telling us now that you are Macedonians? From the ancient years? And for what Macedonian language you speak? The letter isn't greek.You must know that Alexander was born in Greece. He was talking greek and his mother was from Epirus (a greek ancient nation) also a greek was his father. He never spoke your slavish language. All these things you say all the time, is a propaganda from your politicians who have Americans behind them (and they want to make war with us to buy guns, and also they don't know about the greek history) and 1991 was the first time you wrote that our macedonian is yours. You try to proove that you are people, who no one cares about you and you are so unhappy and want your piece of your "land" back. Read some ancient books (greek books not your fake books). So come and get it if you want. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ.

hahaha brainwashed fool...that was never part of greece...greeks were the travelling salesman of the balkans they had no land of their own

[momce]

TrueMacedonian writes: "The name Macedonia followed the Macedonians to Romania. Are we going to be moving the goal posts when certain facts don't enjoy our fancy? There is a rather nice list Soldier of Macedon put together. I recommend you search it out. This particular topic involves the validity of modern Greek claims to "hellenism" and any cultural connections to antiquity."


I asked you to show some connection between the slavic-speaking Macedonians and the ancient world, the ancient kingdom of Macedonia.

As an answer you attacked the Greeks.

The Romania of the middle ages is not the ancient world nor the ancient kingdom of Macedonia. One has nothing to do with the other.

You have found no connection, neither linguistic nor cultural nor geographic between the people or the nation of the Republic of Macedonia and the ancient kingdom because there is none.

You have verified Borza's statement that "modern Slavs both Macedonian and Bulgarian cannot establish a link with antiquity because the Slavs entered the Balkan peninsula centuries after the demise of the macedonian kingdom."

You said that you had no problem with Borza's quote. Neither do I. We both accept it as true, then. We agree.

It is good to end a friendly discussion with mutual agreement.

PS. The word "Macedonian" is first found in the Greek-language poems of Homer. The consensus is that it is the Greek word meaning "Highlander."

Do you know what language Homer spoke since he wrote nothing? What do you think of the phenomenon of the bard and similar customs found among "slavs"?

[Nexus]

"If the claim is based on ethnicity, it is an issue of a different order. Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. Only the most radical Slavic factions - mostly emigres from the United States, Canada and Australia - even attempt to establish a link to antiquity".

About the "slav" things, i recommend everybody to look at the Florin Curta works, who have done a real search about the question, and has a very interesting approach of this. I recommend you one of his books, "The making of the Slavs". Here are interesting reads :

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4530&postcount=1

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4899&postcount=4

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4122&postcount=1

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=30685&postcount=1

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=30974&postcount=3

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=9883&postcount=3

There are very fascinating stuffs in the Forum, when you can, take a look. For examples the previous posts of the member "I of Macedon", wich are very rewarding. And if someone has the PDF of the book previously mentionned, please share .

For those who try to use the "slav" thing for proving that macedonians do no belong to Macedonia, try something more solid.

[Mistracona]

Curta's book is a minority opinion weighed against substantial archeological and textual evidence. He does, however, agree with accepted opinion on several points. He is right in saying the geographic origins of the slavic people have not been determine irrevocably and without doubt. He is wrong in saying that Roman and "Byzantine" sources are all secondary. The "Byzantines" in particular had direct contact with the slavic people from the 6th century through the many following centuries, well into the middle ages.

I cannot take the time to peruse all the links, but I did not immediately grasp Curta's point.

I am puzzled as to why the term "Slav" or "Slavic" or "Slavic language" is met with such hostility in posts from Macedonian bloggers.

The Bulgarians, Poles, Russians and others do not have such objections.

The slavic people (and their national divisions) are one of the great European races and civilisations with extraordinary achievements to their credit. They are also a people of the future.

"Slav" in Slavic means "glory." When General Potemkin was building cities in and "slavicising" the caucasus, he had planned to build a magnificent city in honour of his empress (and lover) Catherine, the Empress of Russia. Though it was never completed, Potemkin had laid out the plans for the great city. He named it "Katerinaslava," which means "the Glory of Catherine."

I wonder if the word "Slav" has taken a pejorative meaning in the experience of immigrants to the new world countries. If that's the case, there's no need. In America, not only was "Slav," pejorative, but so was "Wop", "Spick", "Greaseball", "Kike", "chink," "Kraut" "Pollack". "Yid," "nigger" and a hundred others. It's part of the fun of being a majority.

[Nexus]

And if someone has the PDF of the book previously mentionned, please share .

I finally found the PDF of Florin Curta's book, "The making of the Slavs", here's the link:

http://ebookbrowse.com/gdoc.php?id=319220257&url=9e053238c52756ea4db71ea511683fe4

Bonne lecture mes amis !

[Nexus]

I am puzzled as to why the term "Slav" or "Slavic" or "Slavic language" is met with such hostility in posts from Macedonian bloggers.

To call the macedonian language a "slavic language" is not a problem, because it's true, our language belongs to the family of languages called "Balto-Slavic".

"Slav", "slavic", on the other hand, is met with a lot of hostility, because it is used to reduce the macedonian people as just a "slav" people. Thoses "sub-human slavs" with "no history", who "do no belong to theirs lands" like our lovely neighbors say. I don't like the "slav" term because it reminds me of theses statements and we don't reduce people as their language. The irish people is not just a "english" people, the macedonian people is not just a "slav" people. Also it's reminds me how the westerners used to call us during the 2001 conflict. A conflict between the ethnic albanians and the "slavs", just to write this sentence it irritates me.

"Slav" also is an incorrect term to describe peoples and ethnicities, i thank again the 19th century scholars, especially the russian ones, for spreading their personal views, ideas, also their confusions to the world.

For me it's obvious that there is no "slavic race", the today's so called "slavic nations" do not share a common ancestry, culture, "blood" and homeland. Apart for the alphabet, religion (Thanks to Macedonia ...) and languages who belong to the same family, what we share? Nothing.