Greece, History, Truth

[damian]

No. The Greek Revolution was a national (and religious) one. There were some social undertones that communists tend to exaggerate, but it was not a socialist revolution (or a capitalistic one). The word capitalism was not in their vocabulary, but there were clashes between supporters of modern European structures (a state with a powerful central government) and more “traditional” ones (e.g. semi-autonomous districts with powerful local rulers).
The (post World War II) socialist states were supposedly oases of internationalism, but if you look closer in the recent History of Albania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria etc whole ethnic or religious communities were persecuted and deported there too.

Why is the concept of "hellenisms" they were using so unstable then? Why barely any grease revolts outside of the Morea during the period? Why grease revolution started in Romania? Why so much unstability in the new grease?(landowner-tenant wars, coup detats, foreign king, dictatorship, civil war etc) Why they had to bring 1 million grease into Macedonia from Turkey? Why the whole north "grease" area were forming independant states during WWII?(Pindus-Vlach state, Independant Macedonia, Chams-Albanians-Arvanites etc) Why grease never put those regions to international plebescite but insisted on maintaining administrative control over regions where the people obviously did not want to be part of grease? Could it be that what they created as modern grease has nothing to do with reality?

Why the grease elite consider the "civil war" to be the most dangerous period for them?

[TrueMacedonian]

Where should I start? The article where your fragment comes from is available on line

http://www.historicalreview.org/inde...iewFile/198/94

No it's not. But thank you for posting an article I have posted myself years ago. The article from which I posted Livanios is called "Pride, prudence, and the fear of god: the loyalties of Alexander and Nicholas Mavrocordatos (1664-1730).

It's 30 pages, an easy read, and gives all the answers to the issues questioned in dozens of threads. Moreover, Livanios is a good colleauge, so it's my duty and pleasure to promote his work.

If you still have questions after it, I promise to answer them all.

Colleague yeah I'm sure now you're a historian. Ok buddy lay off the crack from yaya's pipe. Here's something from the link you posted:

II. “Who am I?” Answers from Patriarchs and Peasants
The second observation, which refers to the nomenclature used here, can also serve as the starting point for the discussion of Hellenism and collective identities. The title of this essay refers to “Greece”, but for most of the period under consideration here, neither “Greece”, as a nation-state or a nationalist project, nor “Greeks” [OEÏÏËÓ˜] in the sense of a group identified by that name, existed.

[TrueMacedonian]

No. The Greek Revolution was a national (and religious) one. There were some social undertones that communists tend to exaggerate, but it was not a socialist revolution (or a capitalistic one). The word capitalism was not in their vocabulary, but there were clashes between supporters of modern European structures (a state with a powerful central government) and more “traditional” ones (e.g. semi-autonomous districts with powerful local rulers).
The (post World War II) socialist states were supposedly oases of internationalism, but if you look closer in the recent History of Albania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria etc whole ethnic or religious communities were persecuted and deported there too.

Highly unlikely considering the bulk of the "greeks" were in fact Albanian, Vlach, and Macedonian with greater help from the philhellenes. It was religious for the majority of the inhabitants.

[damian]

Highly unlikely considering the bulk of the "greeks" were in fact Albanian, Vlach, and Macedonian with greater help from the philhellenes. It was religious for the majority of the inhabitants.

Here are some more good articles,:

http://www.arts.yorku.ca/hist/tgallant/courses/documents/roudometofJMGS16_1_002.pdf

http://www.bsa.ac.uk/doc_store/IT/IT2012_49.pdf

What we see with the hellenisms is small groups of grease business communities trying to colonize all the regions around them by bringing in first foreign powers and then the modern grease government and claiming erroneously that the entire place is "hellenical". It is colonialism even inside the grease itself. I think if you use the concept of "captive markets" you can understand the grease policy for all those regions. And thats why grease is imploding because its not reality.

The grease themselves tried the same policy they had against the North against Turks in Asia Minor and Cyprus but lost.

[damian]

No. The Greek Revolution was a national (and religious) one. There were some social undertones that communists tend to exaggerate, but it was not a socialist revolution (or a capitalistic one). The word capitalism was not in their vocabulary, but there were clashes between supporters of modern European structures (a state with a powerful central government) and more “traditional” ones (e.g. semi-autonomous districts with powerful local rulers).
The (post World War II) socialist states were supposedly oases of internationalism, but if you look closer in the recent History of Albania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria etc whole ethnic or religious communities were persecuted and deported there too.

I think its false to argue that although its the general grease line. How do you explain defections from the grease side to the Ottomans? The fact is that the "revolution" was started from the elites for their own interests and reasons mainly for expanding their material interests out of their own Ottoman privelages and estates. That was a landowners rebellion the national conciousness was purely the propaganda spread to capture the regions and their wealth. How do you explain why the grease arent even satisfied with their own revolution and state evolution? But I'm sure you will keep insisting that Macedonia is "hellenic" somehow when it obviously is not historically such a thing in a contiguous fashion or even by the standards of historical continuity, that not even Ancient Macedonia was ever part of grease or nay that Macedonia has never been part of a greek state before 1913, that the people never thought of themselves as grease etc etc all to enforce a pseudo-concept of "hellenisms" serving vested interests and neocolonialism. I dont think NOF was created for no reason, Illinden, ASNOM and the Liberation War etc. Those were logical outcomes of the true origins of the region and the imposed policies.

[Louis]

I don’t consider recent Greek History especially unstable. You can compare it with the history of Turkey or Italy for example. Some of the clashes you mention are mostly social; others are political or related to the balances and interaction with Foreign Powers, World Wars etc.

There are many reasonable explanations for e.g. the success of the insurgency in Peloponnesus or its’ failure in Macedonia, but the truth is they were all circumstantial. Revolution needs madness and is always a huge risk; many wise politicians (e.g. Kapodistrias) believed it was a little too early for the uprising.

The population exchanges (either with Turkey or Bulgaria) were a controversial, yet reasonable solution. New tensions and wars were guaranteed as long as vast areas in Greece and Turkey had mixed populations.

There were no independent states during World War II (Vlach, Macedonian or Albanian). There was no independent state in Prespa either.

After the Second Balkan War, Greece tried to eradicate the elements they considered purely pro-Bulgarian (that included population exchanges, destruction of cities and villages etc) and invest on the people they categorised as “having fluid beliefs”. Some of their actions and atrocities were a result of similar behaviour by Bulgarian Army in the Greek cities and villages and vice versa.

Before the population exchanges with Turkey, e.g. in the consecutive elections of 1915, the main non-Greek entity in the new territories were the Muslims (not the Slavs), but that didn’t cause any serious political problem.

It’s not clear what the risk of Civil War was. An obvious answer is that Greece would become a communist state, but that was not a realistic option. Yet, the communists really believed that, or at least they could cause the maximum damage as possible. Stalin would say something like “I wouldn’t believe or hope the Greek communists could go that far. But, then again I believed the same about China and I was wrong”. The Communist Party of Greece was an obvious threat for the economical elites, but also for the whole bourgeois political establishment.

[George S.]

Louis at least under turkey the macedonians were recxognized as macedonians.Even today
you ask the turks or you look at old maps or their archives & you see who did they have slvaophones ,bulgarians,slav macedonians or just slavs.Guesss what the turks say they had MACEDONIANS.So i don't beleive anything you say you are indoctrinated at your greek schools to hate the skopijans all they want is to take away our lands.Has greece held those lands before 1913?the answer is no.OH but alexander the great was greek he spoke greek bullshit.Oh but we liberated the lands what liberated a land grab.Louies i don't a beleive a word you guys are saying you are nothing but liars,thieves & anything else you want to mention under the sun.Oh but the macedonians don't exist really now.You people are fakes created in 1832 from nothing,what have you got is macedonian lands you should give them back to the right people.

[Louis]

I'm not a historian. When I said I'm his colleague I meant something else.

[George S.]

Yes but you should be able to distinguish truth from bs,right from wrong.Why are a lot of greeks in denial about what went on.The reason why i'm mad & i hate the greek govt for it, not the people but they could shoulder some of the blame is this.THere are macedonians & some of them were killed for being macedonian.My uncle apparently died a gruesome dearh where while he was still alive they plucked his eyes out with a fork & goodness knows what else.I heare the practice of cutting genitals etc & puting them in people's mouth was a favourite whils't still alive.Then they beheaded them & showed them around like a trophy.I don't care if you're not a historian but if i hear you are denying attrocities committed on macedonians by greeks & there is also no respect coming from you watch out.THis is your one & only opportunity to come clean & speak your mind on what went on but one wrong move & POw.In other words we want you to be a human being first & not a moron first.Just for your info we have other greeks who are fairminded about what went on & they have come out of the closet so to speak.
We've had Fatso & Sir george & others & they have admitted everything that went on.These are the good greeks .People we rspect & they respect us. for who we are why don't you do the same.

[Carlin]

Louis, any thoughts or comments on the following thread?

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6633

What do you make of the historical and scientific fact that as late as mid-19th century the population of Peloponnese consisted of ethnic Vlachs and Albanians?

[damian]

I don’t consider recent Greek History especially unstable.

my comment: Really? The country is now imploding.

You can compare it with the history of Turkey or Italy for example. Some of the clashes you mention are mostly social; others are political or related to the balances and interaction with Foreign Powers, World Wars etc.

my comment: Yah the whole country is created by foreign powers. grease has been unstable since it was constructed by the Great Powers.

There are many reasonable explanations for e.g. the success of the insurgency in Peloponnesus or its’ failure in Macedonia, but the truth is they were all circumstantial. Revolution needs madness and is always a huge risk; many wise politicians (e.g. Kapodistrias) believed it was a little too early for the uprising. You need to ask and answer the question why all the surrounding states would want to usurp Macedonia's independance other then by constructed some false notion of "hellenism" which doesnt hold water when it is confronted with reality.

my comment: There were hardly any greek revolts in Macedonia in 1821 and the few there were are originating from the Pindus area and Thessaly. Why is that?

The population exchanges (either with Turkey or Bulgaria) were a controversial, yet reasonable solution. New tensions and wars were guaranteed as long as vast areas in Greece and Turkey had mixed populations.

There were no independent states during World War II (Vlach, Macedonian or Albanian). There was no independent state in Prespa either.

my comment: No? What about the Pindus Republic, the Chams there was a free region in Prespa and in Macedonia areas were under autonomous control. The grease had to reconquer those regions it wasnt even a civil war it was recolonisation.

After the Second Balkan War, Greece tried to eradicate the elements they considered purely pro-Bulgarian (that included population exchanges, destruction of cities and villages etc) and invest on the people they categorised as “having fluid beliefs”. Some of their actions and atrocities were a result of similar behaviour by Bulgarian Army in the Greek cities and villages and vice versa.

Greece shouldnt even be in those regions and labelling it "Bulgarian" is part of the political propaganda game. Its a rationalisation.

Before the population exchanges with Turkey, e.g. in the consecutive elections of 1915, the main non-Greek entity in the new territories were the Muslims (not the Slavs), but that didn’t cause any serious political problem.

my comment: in what region was that?

It’s not clear what the risk of Civil War was. An obvious answer is that Greece would become a communist state, but that was not a realistic option.

my comment: not just that but the entire North would be taken from grease administration according to the peoples wishes.

Yet, the communists really believed that, or at least they could cause the maximum damage as possible. Stalin would say something like “I wouldn’t believe or hope the Greek communists could go that far. But, then again I believed the same about China and I was wrong”. The Communist Party of Greece was an obvious threat for the economical elites, but also for the whole bourgeois political establishment.

"

And you are whitewashing everything as a creation of Tito and the communists which is really a lie.



Louis I think you are doing your best to rationalise state terror and twist them into grease propaganda. And its all based on the assumption that Macedonia could never be independant which is historically and sociologically false. I think you are whitewashing history. Nobody cares what grease or serbia or bulgaria "needs" were at the time to impose themselves on other people, their territories and to wipe out their traditional economies. culture and language through state terrorism and some largely economically loaded monocultural pseudo-notion of 'hellenisms' or whatever "ism" can be made up to justify murder.

Why the grease government printed the ABECEDAR and then destroyed it?

[George S.]

Damian is right louis Why create an abcedar & then destroy it what is there to hide a nationality under that abcedar of course if there is the implications are you are unjustly holding a people under false pretences so obviously the need to deny their existence.

[Carlin]

Korce Vlachs: We were declared as Greek

http://www.top-channel.tv/english/artikull.php?id=3026

Vlach community members in Korca say that they have asked photocopies of their Census questionnaires, for proving that they have been declared as Greek. Some of them express the dissatisfaction for not receiving them.

One of the accusations made by the Red and Black Alliance is that for obliging people to declare themselves as Greek, they have been told to photocopy the declarations. But in most of the cases it has been refused by the interviewers.

Greek Consulate asks photocopy of the questionnaire

The population registration process in Korce has started with some controversies, but not yet officially verified.

The interviewers have met suspicious requests by some residents, such as a copy of the questionnaire page where the nationality is declared.

The interviewers say that some citizens have asked this photocopy for presenting it at the Greek Consulate in Korçe. Official authorities in Korce have not commented about this.

Sami Mecollari, from the INSTAT branch in Korce, says that the questionnaire has no official value if photocopied. But the fact that unauthorized structures of a foreign country are attempting to exert control on the Census, compromises the process.

The Consulate that has asked the photocopies is still led by Theodhoros Ikonomou, who declared one year ago that the Aromanian minorities were Greek, and invited them to declare themselves as such.

The other organization that has requested confirmation for the citizens’ declaration as Greek nationals has been sentenced by the Court of First Degree over violation of the Albanian graves for opening way to the homage that were to be paid over a Greek grave.

Meçollari added that the Liqenas commune, with a population of 5000 residents, mostly Macedonians, have started a normal registration process. Different to the declaration of the head of the commune, who invited residents to boycott, the process has continued normally.

INSTAT officials are expected to visit Korce for inspecting the problems that have been encountered.

[TrueMacedonian]

Korce Vlachs: We were declared as Greek

http://www.top-channel.tv/english/artikull.php?id=3026

Vlach community members in Korca say that they have asked photocopies of their Census questionnaires, for proving that they have been declared as Greek. Some of them express the dissatisfaction for not receiving them.

One of the accusations made by the Red and Black Alliance is that for obliging people to declare themselves as Greek, they have been told to photocopy the declarations. But in most of the cases it has been refused by the interviewers.

Greek Consulate asks photocopy of the questionnaire

The population registration process in Korce has started with some controversies, but not yet officially verified.

The interviewers have met suspicious requests by some residents, such as a copy of the questionnaire page where the nationality is declared.

The interviewers say that some citizens have asked this photocopy for presenting it at the Greek Consulate in Korçe. Official authorities in Korce have not commented about this.

Sami Mecollari, from the INSTAT branch in Korce, says that the questionnaire has no official value if photocopied. But the fact that unauthorized structures of a foreign country are attempting to exert control on the Census, compromises the process.

The Consulate that has asked the photocopies is still led by Theodhoros Ikonomou, who declared one year ago that the Aromanian minorities were Greek, and invited them to declare themselves as such.

The other organization that has requested confirmation for the citizens’ declaration as Greek nationals has been sentenced by the Court of First Degree over violation of the Albanian graves for opening way to the homage that were to be paid over a Greek grave.

Meçollari added that the Liqenas commune, with a population of 5000 residents, mostly Macedonians, have started a normal registration process. Different to the declaration of the head of the commune, who invited residents to boycott, the process has continued normally.

INSTAT officials are expected to visit Korce for inspecting the problems that have been encountered.

Thanks for the article Carlin. Check this out: http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=2256

[Risto the Great]

Before the population exchanges with Turkey, e.g. in the consecutive elections of 1915, the main non-Greek entity in the new territories were the Muslims (not the Slavs), but that didn’t cause any serious political problem.

This is your first warning. They were not "Slavs" they were indigenous Macedonians.

And the Muslims (Turks) learned the local language to communicate with the majority in the region. Yes, they spoke Macedonian.