Greece, History, Truth

[Onur]

I have gone several times to Turkey for business, never had a chance to look. Keep in mind that it is in Ottoman writing so you would have to find a person that knows how to read it to tell you.

TM, Can find something in Romaika to post ? I would like to see it.

Voltron, where were your grandparents from in Turkey? If it wasn't Izmir or Istanbul, it`s quite possible that they were only speaking Turkish. Especially if they were from central Anatolia, they were most likely speaking Turkish only. Rums from rural parts of Aegean, Blacksea and Thrace were mostly bilingual, Romaika and Turkish speakers.


Btw, i remember one post in this forum. It was about a book published in Romaika by Istanbul patriarchy. The patriarchy was saying that if they would publish in Greek then so-called Greeks couldn't read it, so they had to publish in Romaika, half Turkish, half Greek. I think there was examples of Romaika language from that particular book. I would be glad if someone can find that post and link to us cuz i cant find it myself.

[Voltron]

Voltron, where were your grandparents from in Turkey? If it wasn't Izmir or Istanbul, it`s quite possible that they were only speaking Turkish. Especially if they were from central Anatolia, they were most likely speaking Turkish only. Rums from rural parts of Aegean, Blacksea and Thrace were mostly bilingual, Romaika and Turkish speakers.


Btw, i remember one post in this forum. It was about a book published in Romaika by Istanbul patriarchy. The patriarchy was saying that if they would publish in Greek then so-called Greeks couldn't read it, so they had to publish in Romaika, half Turkish, half Greek. I think there was examples of Romaika language from that particular book. I would be glad if someone can find that post and link to us.

Im a Fenerbahce fan if that tells you something.
Take a guess

[TrueMacedonian]

I have gone several times to Turkey for business, never had a chance to look. Keep in mind that it is in Ottoman writing so you would have to find a person that knows how to read it to tell you.

TM, Can find something in Romaika to post ? I would like to see it.

I don't read or write Romaika. Sorry.

[TrueMacedonian]

That doesnt mean Greeks didnt exist. Lets not get overzealous here.

Sure they existed. But they just spoke different languages, enjoyed Turkish culture, and called each other Christians. Yeah I can see your point

[Voltron]

I don't read or write Romaika. Sorry.

Im just asking if you can find something in Romaika to post. Not to read it, thats my job.

[makedonche]

Agamoi can hold his own just fine. Each time he posted an example you brushed it off like you didnt even see it. Then you claim to be objective.
As far as how much Turkish infiltrated your language is something you know not me. I know my language, not Macedonian.

Voltron
Civilised response - admirable! Agamoi can't hold anything up, he was challenged and one of his references was challenged and he hasn't been heard of since.
Yes I know my language and I know yours as well, they have both been influenced by Turkish and to deny this is simply to live in denial - that may be a comfortable place for you to live in but is out of touch with reality and the acknowledgement of existing facts.

[Ottoman]

Turkish langauge ? Do you know before the Ataturk "cleansed" the language it was one of the most mixed languages in the region ? Are you kidding me ? What time frame are you referring to ? Another thing as well, people ought to stop commenting on how much Greek they know when they cant even speak, read or understand it. I was able to read everything Agamoi posted with ease and ppl are still clutching at straws here. Truth of the matter is Onur would have an impossible time reading, writing or even conversing in Ottoman. Unless he is famliar with it, and this is something that was told to me by a Turk. Unless he is wrong. You are in no way objective Makedoneche, you just like to hear what you want to hear.

To understand the Ottoman language you have to master Arabic, its simple as that, the Ottoman language is not any different than modern Turkish, the only difference is that the modern Turkish language uses the Latin alphabet.

[George S.]

Vultron you can't be two people at the same time you can either be turkish or greek & not the two.How people can become greek by different means is another matter.Simply speaking turkish does not make one a turk but speaking greek does make one a greek.It has been proven many times before by your government.

[Onur]

After a bit of searching on the internet, i found a book written by the director of British school of Athens in 1909. There is an extensive research about the Romaika language spoken by some christians in Anatolia with 200+ pages of grammatical analysis and about 400+ pages of folk tales written by Romaika speakers themselves. It`s even written who wrote the folk tales. He uses the language in these folk tales as a sample and analyses the Romaika language of Anatolian christians of that era.

He specifically mentions about Turkish christians who cant speak Romaika at all. In this book, he only analyses the language of Romaika speakers(a fusion of Turkish and Greek as the author calls). He says that these Romaika speakers are usually bilingual people with Romaika and Turkish unlike Turkish christians who could only speaks Turkish.




The comments of the author about the extension of Turkish influence in the language;









Examples of Romaika texts written by local people themselves
and the English translation of the text at the right side;

This is the Romaika dialect of central Anatolia;





This is the Romaika dialect of northern Aegean side in Anatolia;

I already knew that story of Nasreddin Hodja
My father used to tell me that story when i was a kid






This is a list for analyzing Turkish influence in the language from sample folk tales.
You can download the book from this link and check it out;

http://ia700100.us.archive.org/16/it...00hallgoog.pdf



Author goes beyond of Turkish influence and calls this language as a fusion of Greek and Turkish. He also says that Greekish element in this language is also not resembles of the Greek spoken in Athens but it shows elements from Byzantine Greek. IMHO, I can say that this fusion is probably created by the intermarriage of Turkish(Karamanlides, Gagauz etc.) and Rum christians in Anatolia for centuries.

So, this was the language of the grandparents of nearly half of current population in Greece. Ofc we know that about ~400.000 of them didn't even know Romaika but only Turkish in 1923. And also people in Morea was speaking Albanian at that time, Macedonians at northern side too!!! Now i really started to wonder how many people in Greece was ABLE TO SPEAK current Greek language 100 years ago??? What`s your estimate? %20-25??? It should be that low, so thats why we have philhellene British author here, the director of British school in Greece, aggressively teaching the today`s "modern Greek" to all these people with various mothertongues and thoroughly investigating the Romaika speakers in Anatolia in 1910. These philhellenes did this extensive work for a century and thats how a nation called Greece has been born.



P.S: I would be grateful if one of our Greek members can convert one of these folk tales to Latin script cuz even looking at the Greek script, i can distinguish some of the Turkish words in it like "Baba, dev, olmak, etmek". I also really wonder if today`s Greeks speakers can read and understand these texts written by their grandparents?

[Voltron]

I must say Onur this is one of the rare times I will thank you. I could read it just fine. As a matter of fact I will even go further to say it uses more ancient Greek words than we do today. I will read the book in its fullest, I didnt even know such a book was out there. To say Rum Christians is incorrect since Armenians had a language of their own. Its clearly Greek.

Here, more Romaika for you.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/history/jason-and-the-argot-land-where-greeks-ancient-language-survives-2174669.html

[Onur]

I didn't write this msg to receive a gratitude from you anyway. I wrote this to shut your and Agamoi Tyhai`s mouth since you both claim that your language didn't get effected from Turkish. Agamoi even claims that Greeks only learned to curse in Turkish to us.

In your previous msg in this thread, you said to Makedonche that you know your own language and Greek didn't get any influence from Turkish unlike Macedonian. No mate, you don't know shit about your language and you Voltron probably cant even speak the language of your grandparents spoke in Fenerbahce/Istanbul. You Greeks only know what Hellenic propaganda told you and you live in a mythical world created by the philhellene western Europeans a century ago. Already, reason of your false claims are the result of this cultural alteration and transformation of you guys lived a century ago. You all have been forcibly separated from your true roots whether it was Romaika, Arvanite or Vlach and then you have been indoctrinated with new cultural codes. These new cultural codes dictates you to hate from us and deny any cultural interaction with us. Whether you guys accept this or not, that wont change the truth.


Btw your link from independent newspaper is just a proof of the fallacy of official Greek propaganda. Think about why Romaika is totally dead in Greece but still survives among muslim people of Turkey? Is this fact corresponds with what hellenic propaganda told you? Hellenic propaganda says that Turks forbid Greek language. So, who forbid now according to your article? Your philhellene forefathers in Athens totally forbid Romaika, Turkish, Macedonian, Albanian, Vlach languages and forced you to learn new modern Greek, unnaturally created by philhellenes a century ago. Thats why all these languages and dialects are dead in Greece now. On the other hand, it`s still alive in Turkey today cuz no one forbid any language here.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

No mate, you don't know shit about your language and you Voltron probably cant even speak the language of your grandparents spoke in Fenerbahce/Istanbul.

Im starting to doubt that your even Turkish. No Turk I know would say this. Its like me saying Panathanikos/Athens. Here just to help you out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenerbah%C3%A7e_S.K.

Btw your link from independent newspaper is just a proof of the fallacy of official Greek propaganda. Think about why Romaika is totally dead in Greece but still survives among muslim people of Turkey? Is this fact corresponds with what hellenic propaganda told you? Hellenic propaganda says that Turks forbid Greek language. So, who forbid now according to your article? Your philhellene forefathers in Athens totally forbid Romaika, Turkish, Macedonian, Albanian, Vlach languages and forced you to learn new modern Greek, unnaturally created by philhellenes a century ago. Thats why all these languages and dialects are dead in Greece now. On the other hand, it`s still alive in Turkey today cuz no one forbid any language here.

No, we have never said Greek was forbidden to be spoken. What we say is that we have been forced to move out of our native areas due to Progroms and other means. This happened within the last century not during Ottoman rule. That is a ridiculous claim you made. The reason Romaika is not widely used in Greece is simple. Demotiki standardized all Greek dialects. That was the purpose for it.

Lastly, what I said to Makedoche was regarding some claim that in Mainland Greece, Greek was unintellegible to Greeks. Another bogus and baseless claim that fell into an oblivion. Agamoi is correct and I also insist that in Mainland Greece Turkish was not heavily used. Sorry but it is the truth. Bringing up Capoddoceia and Pontus is a completely different story. Even in this case the Greek in Romaika is clear and understandable. Thats more than what can be said for you though. Unless you took Arabic classes you werent able to read your own language not to long ago.

[Ottoman]

Fenerbahce is the name of an area in the district of Kadikoy in Istanbul, I dont think Onur means the football club.

[Voltron]

Fenerbahce is the name of an area in the discrit of Kadikoy in Istanbul, I dont think Onur means the football club.

Like you said Ottoman, Kadikoy is the district. I have never heard of Fenerbahce being used to describe an area in Istanbul. Il take your word for it just to save your buddy.

[Ottoman]

Bro there is also an area named Besiktas and a school named Galatasaray Lisesi, the big three football clubs in Turkey were named after their areas and school were they were founded.