Population of Macedonia and Adjacent Areas

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  • Pelister
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 2742

    #46
    Very few Albanians in Macedonia. Very few.

    Comment

    • TrueMacedonian
      Banned
      • Jan 2009
      • 3823

      #47
      I'm not sure if any of you noticed this on the map so I circled it in red for all to see;



      Isn't it strange that Halkidiki has one little spot for Slavs and no where else. Makes you wonder how long it took to hellenize the rest of the Macedonians and Vlachs in Halkidiki. And I know that todays modern "greek" nationalist will claim that no "Slavs" ever lived there.

      Comment

      • TrueMacedonian
        Banned
        • Jan 2009
        • 3823

        #48
        I want to bring everyone's attention to this map;



        Migrations and invasions in greece and adjacent areas by NGL Hammond.

        Comment

        • Daskalot
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 4345

          #49
          Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
          I want to bring everyone's attention to this map;



          Migrations and invasions in greece and adjacent areas by NGL Hammond.
          Yeah right, that one is photoshoped...... Albanians in Greece......
          Macedonian Truth Organisation

          Comment

          • TrueMacedonian
            Banned
            • Jan 2009
            • 3823

            #50


            Vecer: 2002 Macedonian census was Forged
            Thursday, 24 September 2009

            Vladimir Golubovski of VMRO-NP and Janko Bachev claim to have evidence that confirms prominent government officials in 2002 had influenced those who created the census questionnaires. For this purpose a suit was filed to the Republicís Public Prosecutor Ljupco Shvrgovski.


            According to them, this was done to show that Albanians constituted 25.17 percent of the population in order to justify the Framework Agreement which was based on a minority constituting more than 20%.

            The census of 2002 was forged, and the percentage of ethnic Albanians in Macedonia is about 17 percent, not 25.17 as shown seven years ago.


            This claim was presented before the Public Prosecutor Ljupco Shvrgovski yesterday by the leaders of VMRO-NP and the People's Movement for Macedonia, Vladimir Golubovski and Janko Bachev.

            Both have filed criminal charges and argue that at the time of implementation of the census immense pressure was carried against individuals who worked on the final reports.
            Golubovski and Bachev require immediate cancellation of the imposed Framework Agreement, which, as they say, the Albanians won, and Macedonians lost everything.

            - The Albanian minority by means of force, weapons and foreign mentors imposed on us to accept their demands as acquired rights, rights achieved with the Framework Agreement and not the rights of all citizens, such as birth rights. So in a situation where we know that the outcome of the census was falsified, and in a situation where this ethnic community continues aggressively with new demands that are disclosed as steps towards federalization, Macedonia simply must verify the result.

            Moreover, it is well known that the ethnic Albanians were 16 percent, are now even less as their numbers will continue to decrease according to all statistics. We are witnessing as the Albanians realize their numbers are smaller and faced with a new census, they are becoming increasingly aggressive, says Golubovski.

            Bachev meanwhile said there were numerous documents showing high ranking government officials involved in falsification of the 2002 census.
            - In the process of gathering all the evidence, itís been shocking for us to look at the level to which this falsification took place. The crime in the last census is just staggering. The parties involved, the technology behind it, the falsifications made by the field workers, the way the information was entered into the computer systemsÖ all of this is falsified Ė stated Bachev.


            Meanwhile the ethnic Albanians continue to torment the majority Macedonians and the rest of the ethnic minorities.
            Ethnic Albanian politicians are not liable for any of their statements even the public ones against the Republic. The government is silent to their threats, even silent when a Parliament party leader goes to lobby Albania to prevent Macedonia from entering NATO. No ethnic Albanian politician who have threatened the country with terrorism acts has been prosecuted.

            Albanian students who canít pass high school exams (like the rest of the students) are given free pass to the most prestigious medical school with their only qualification is being ĎAlbanianí.

            For how long will the Government, the majority Macedonians and the other ethnic communities tolerate this kind of aggressive behavior, threats and unscrupulous demands by the ethnic Albanian politicians and their community remains to be seen.

            Comment

            • TrueMacedonian
              Banned
              • Jan 2009
              • 3823

              #51
              I think the more Maceodnians look into this matter the more we will find. Let's seriously continue the search for the truth.

              Comment

              • TrueMacedonian
                Banned
                • Jan 2009
                • 3823

                #52


                Their History and Caste System The Gypsies of Kosova: Their History and Caste System

                The term "Gypsy" today it is not politically correct. But in Kosova that may be the only practical way to refer to the people who are still under that etymological stigma.

                Before 1990 Gypsies in Kosova were divided into two groups, Roma and Hashkalija. Since 1990, the Gypsies have classified into three groups, Roma, Hashkalija and Egyptian. The Roma are sub-classified into 12 castes. All groups identified themselves under the general term Maxhupi, which translates as Gypsy. DNA testing someday may make the relationship between these groups more understandable. For the moment we have to rely on the historical record, language, customs and oral traditions to understand why they have divided themselves into two groups.

                Under Turkish domination, the Kosovar Egyptians were called Hashkalija which in Turkish means nothing more than Gypsy. Maxhupi is the other name all Kosovar Gypsies are known by. The etymology of the word is not clear. A Turkish doctor said it was an old Turkish word for Gypsy. A Macedonian professor of linguistics said it was the Albanian word for Gypsy. Many Roma experts believe this is a derogatory term, but most Roma and Hashkalija in Kosova used this term to identify themselves.

                All Roma originated in India. Which part of India, is another question. From their language, many experts feel the Roma originated in Greater Punjab (NE Pakistan, NW India and most of Rajasthan). There is solid evidence for this assumption since many Punjabis today can understand some of the Roma language, depending upon the dialect. But the grammar is another matter. Roma grammar indicates an origin in NE India, in the area of Bihar, the ancestral homeland of the pre•Dravidian people called the Dom. Since the "d" and the "r" in Panjabi are interchangeable, many experts feel that the Rom and Dom are one in the same. From my experience with both people, I believe they are related because they share so many customs., traditions, oral histories, characteristics and music. For the past few thousand years, the Doms have also been found in Greater Punjab under a series of subcastes, namely the Banjari and Khebeli (Gabeli) who have maintained their caste names in Eastern Europe.

                When did the Roma leave India? The answer may be lost forever, but most likely the Roma have been emigrating out of India for thousands of years. Major movements, however, have been established. One such movement was in 1308 when the Lohar caste was defeated defending their ancestral city in Rajasthan; The Lohars have been documented as arriving in Eastern Europe around 1320. This is an important date in the history of the Kosovar Gypsies because the Lohars are the blacksmith caste of India. They became nomadic after their defeat and were known to roam in highly decorated wagons pulled by either black water buffalo or small Punjabi ponies, both of which can be found in Kosova today. The largest Roma caste in Kosova is the Kovachi, which is the Serbian translation for blacksmith.

                Most "Gypsies" in Kosova trace their genealogy through oral tradition back to a blacksmith.
                In fact, the most common oral history that I have collected among the Roma and the Kosovar Egyptians speak of nine brothers, all blacksmiths, who came from Turkey to Kosova over five hundred years ago. Once in Kosova, they separated, going to nine different towns. According to most oral histories, all Gypsies in Kosova are descended from those nine brothers.

                It is well know that the Lohars did not travel alone. Like all great movements out of India in those times they had their camp followers: transporters, musicians, dancers, even fortune tellers. In lesser numbers these same professional castes are to be found today in Kosova, namely the Rabagi (transporters), Gabeli (acrobats, dancers), Arlia (musicians) and Chergari (fortune tellers).

                The next big question in understanding the Gypsies of Kosova is: did the Roma (Kovachi, Rabagi, Vlahy, Gabeli, Chergari and Arlia) find "Gypsies" already here when they arrived around 1320? Some Kosovar Gypsies, who today call themselves Egyptian, say yes, their ancestors were here.

                If true, their history in Kosova is much older than that of the Roma who left India in the 14' century.
                According to the oral histories I have collected from these "Gypsies," their ancestors came from Egypt. This is a curious tale, because the only other "Gypsies" who claim their ancestors came from Egypt are the Gitanos of Spain (Gitano means Egyptian in old Spanish). Neither the Gitanos nor the Kosovar Egyptians (also known as Hashkalija) speak Romani. But from their characteristics, customs, tradition and music, not to mention their oral histories, both these groups of "Egyptians" have all the hallmarks of Roma from India.

                Many experts believe these so-called Egyptian Gypsies left India with Alexander the Great and were the blacksmiths and camp followers of his army as it traveled to Egypt. Several Yugoslav historians have written that these Egyptian Gypsies probably came with the Arab army that laid siege to Dubrovnik in the 9th century. Perhaps after that failed siege, they deserted (or were abandoned) and made their way into Macedonia to pay homage to Alexander the Great who took their ancestors from India to Egypt. In any case, it appears that these Egyptian Gypsies arrived so long ago in Kosova that they lost their Punjabi language. When the Roma appeared in the 14' century, the Serbs and Albanians must have assumed these dark•skinned people were blood brothers because the Serbs and Albanians used the same word for them, i.e. Maxhupi. Certainly the Hashkalija had some of the same customs practiced only by the Roma, such as washing men's clothes separately from women's.

                Gypsy, by the way, is the 16th century English translation of the. Spanish word Gitano. Gitano is the 15' century Spanish translation of the word Egyptian.

                Today in Kosova these are the Gypsy names/castes you are mostly like to come across:

                Roma
                Chisto Rom: This means pure Rom, the best Roma. Many Roma castes call themselves "chisto Rom," especially the Kovachi. Most Roma speak Romani, Serbian and Albanian. But Serb Roma speak only Serb and some Roma do not speak Albanian. The Roma are made up of the following castes:

                Kovachi: The Serb translation of blacksmith, the Lohar caste of India.

                Burgogia: A Kosovar subcaste of the Kovachi.

                Rabagi: The transporters caste. In Kosova most Rabagi still transport goods with horse and wagon for clients. Before the war, some Rabagi had small vans, and some even had taxis. The Gurbeti are a subcaste. Some prefer not to work and live off the generosity of other people. Many Gurbeti are traders, some are smugglers. Some Gurbeti are very wealthy "traders." Many Gurbeti practice the Serbian Orthodox religion.

                Vlahy: If there is still a pure caste that follows the old ways, traditions and customs of the Roma, the Vlahy are those people. They are found throughout Europe under their own name. They are considered hard workers, and like the Kovachi many are usually educated. In Albania they are known as the Felia. A small percentage of Vlahy are involved in petty crime such as pickpocketing.

                Gabeli: Today they are usually poor ditch diggers, construction workers, almost anything to do with physical labor. But their caste can be traced directly back to the Khebeli of India who were acrobats, dancers, snake charmers. In India many are professional criminals who also prostitute their wives and daughters.

                Chergari: These are the Gypsies whose women are fond of wearing lots of gold, telling fortunes, and reading palms. The men usually earn their living sharpening knives or repairing umbrellas. Many are nomadic in the spring and summer, usually today in motor homes. The Chergari are considered by other Roma as the thieves and liars of their race. Today in the Balkans the Chergari are not found in Kosova, only in Serbia. The Vrashari are a subcaste found only in Serbia. Both castes are usually Orthodox or Catholic in religion.

                Arlia: These are the professional musicians, many having studied in conservatories. They are an industrious people, usually educated. In Kosova many lived in the city of Prishtine until the war dispersed them. In Gjilan, over 90% of the Roma were Arlia. Many owned shops and boutiques before they were burned out by Albanians after the war.

                Maxhupi (Magjupi): Although many foreigners think this is a derogatory name for Kosovar Roma/Hashkalija, this is what they call themselves when speaking with each other.

                Hashkalija
                Hashkalija: Until the Yugoslav government created more minorities to offset the Albanians in Kosovo, there were only two groups of Gypsies in Kosova: Roma and Hashkalija. Some Hashkalija believe they originated in Turkey where there is a village called Askale. In Turkish the word for Gypsy is Askale. The Hashkalija are the largest class of "Gypsies" in Kosova.

                Egyptians: Until the Yugoslav government issued a new series of ethnic classifications in the early 1990s which officially recognized some Kosovars as Egyptians, they were called Hashkalija. Since the war, many Hashkalija/Egyptians refuse to be called anything but Albanian Mussulmen. Like their Hashkalija "cousins," all have Albanian surnames and speak only Albanian. Although their oral tradition usually speaks of an ancestor who was a blacksmith, most of their fathers and grandfathers were small farmers.

                All of these castes (except Chergari and Vrashari) can still be found today in Kosova. Usually these castes do not intermarry.

                Comment

                • Daskalot
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 4345

                  #53
                  Nice read, so they do not use the term 'Gjuptin' in Kosovo? Does anyone else use the term as we do in the Balkans?
                  Macedonian Truth Organisation

                  Comment

                  • TrueMacedonian
                    Banned
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 3823

                    #54

                    page 352

                    Comment

                    • Pelister
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 2742

                      #55
                      Thanks T.M.

                      This statistical table produced by Sotiades is found on page 47 of his book "The Macedonian Controversy".

                      The figures presented by Sotiades above are of the composition of Serbian occupied Macedonia, or the present day Macedonian republic.

                      I'm not sure where he gets this table. I think he gets the information from Pallis (Statistical Study, p.14) or from Wilkinson (Maps and Politics: A Review of the Ethnographic Cartography of Macedonia), or from other source.

                      Here is what Zotiades says:

                      Macedonia is not a nation, but a mere geographical expression. The term 'Macedonia' indicates the regional, not the national origin. It has no unity whatsoever, neither geographical, economic, ethnic, nor linguistic. p.62
                      Then the contradictions begin:

                      During a large part of its history Macedonia has been entirely Greek ... p.8
                      Macedonia is inhabited by Bulgarians, Greeks, or Serbians ... p.33
                      Even in ancient times there was no Macedonian language since the ancient Macedonians were Greeks speaking a Greek dialect. That idiom spokne by the Slavs in Macedonia is not a language ... p.34
                      Sotiades assumption that "Macedonia is Greek" is contradicted by his own evidence, again.

                      "... Sir Arthur Salter, Director of the Economic Section of the League of Nations writes in th eTimes of Nov. 27, 1926 'Greek (occupied) Macedonia has been hellenized...'", p.43
                      "... Since 1919, southern Macedonia has again been united with Greece, since 1923 the immigration of the Greeks of Asia Minor and Thrace has entirely Hellenized it. p.43
                      "...The great exodus .... materially changed the ethnic composition of Macedonia p. 43

                      Comment

                      • TrueMacedonian
                        Banned
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 3823

                        #56
                        Interesting Paul. This is the link to Piotr Eberhardt's book- http://books.google.com/books?id=jLf...edonia&f=false

                        Unfortunately I cannot see the pages a few behind the ones I posted. However I don't know what the exact population of the entire territory of Macedonia was in 1912? In Eberhardt's book he puts up a table for "Historical Macedonia" and a seperate one for "Present Territoy". I assume(d) the latter meant Macedonia as in "Aegean, Pirin, Vardar, Prespa,etc."

                        Comment

                        • Pelister
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 2742

                          #57
                          Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
                          Interesting Paul. This is the link to Piotr Eberhardt's book- http://books.google.com/books?id=jLf...edonia&f=false

                          Unfortunately I cannot see the pages a few behind the ones I posted. However I don't know what the exact population of the entire territory of Macedonia was in 1912? In Eberhardt's book he puts up a table for "Historical Macedonia" and a seperate one for "Present Territoy". I assume(d) the latter meant Macedonia as in "Aegean, Pirin, Vardar, Prespa,etc."
                          Thanks T.M.

                          The numbers produced by Piotr's book for the number of Macedonians in 1913 for the region of Serbian occupied Macedonia I think are very accurate.

                          Comment

                          • TrueMacedonian
                            Banned
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 3823

                            #58
                            Originally posted by Pelister View Post
                            Thanks T.M.

                            The numbers produced by Piotr's book for the number of Macedonians in 1913 for the region of Serbian occupied Macedonia I think are very accurate.
                            Not really if we consider the so-called "grk" numbers then. Of course religious propaganda can be taken into consideration for those numbers. Check this one out Pelister;

                            Is she Greek yet, in these days, Salonica? On the new maps, sure; In the colours of the houses and the street signs, yes. But anywhere else? At its heart the city is not and has never been Greek...This is an international city par excellence. Or, rather, a denationalized city. Even after its annexation to Greece, the Greeks of Salonica are but a fraction, and not even the largest, of its inhabitants.

                            Dalla Serbia invasa alle trincee di Salonicco pages 113-114, A. Fraccaroli (Milan, 1916)

                            Comment

                            • TrueMacedonian
                              Banned
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 3823

                              #59




                              Salonica; City of Ghosts by Mark Mazower

                              Notice page 434 where Mazower states that todays imposter hellenes should tell the truth on how Macedonians, Albanians, and Vlachs became "greeks" through the church? He should've went on further to explain the language laws that were later on passed and how people were jailed for speaking their mother tongue.
                              But all in all pretty informative about the refugees or rather the "Eastern Christians".
                              Last edited by TrueMacedonian; 12-31-2009, 04:41 PM.

                              Comment

                              • Pelister
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 2742

                                #60
                                What interests me also is the mention that Arab armies laid siege to balkan cities in the 9th century.

                                I think we'll find our modern Albanians come from this stock.

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