Edinstveni Makedonski Zborovi - Unique Macedonian Words (postable)

[Bratot]

You see no similarity in meaning between 'pomace' and 'sediment'?



How about the Romanian mâşcoi, Albanian mushkë, Lombard müsa and Friulan mus? Even the Greek μόσχος?

Do you now see how simple word lists don't get anywhere?

That's why I provided for you, to see your laic reasoning on matters you claim to have credibility.

That's a stretch.

It's equally valid as your examples.

Sure, but not Скопско.

Actually you do realize how shallow were your examples.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Is there something wrong the examples I gave? I don't like Wikipedia, but the list is valid.

Never said it was invalid, I was just highlighting your failure to produce that which you claimed to be compiling. Like I said before, next time, don't write cheques that you can't cash.

Though I do adhere to scientific methodology, something absent from your posts.

Yes, I saw that 'methodology' in action when you posted your wiki-link in support of the bogus assertion that Albanian is closer to Illyrian than the Slavic languages are. Having an open mind towards alternative possibilities isn't un-scientific, in many cases it provides a path to progress, something you have no interest in.

There are no observable systematic changes in Illyrian → modern Macedonian.

Directly from Illyrian to modern Macedonian? Probably not. Alot happened in the last 2,000 years.

Their relatedness does not go beyond Proto-Indo-European cognates also shared by other language families.

That's where you're wrong. Not all cognates are shared by other IE languages, nor are the sound changes that occured in Illyrian the same as all other IE languages. There are other factors to consider also where it concerns the relationship between the Illyrians and speakers of today's Slavic languages, such as geographic location, interaction between groups north and south of the Danube, and cultural heritage.

[Дени]

That's why I provided for you, to see your laic reasoning

Your statement is completely unacceptable as you've yet to provide a scientific backing for your claims.

Perhaps without such confirmation bias, you'd all be exploring this in a different light.

on matters you claim to have credibility.

I don't claim to have any more credibility than anyone else here.

It's equally valid as your examples.

Are you able to go beyond tit-for-tat comments and actually prove me wrong?

Actually you do realize how shallow were your examples.

Yes. That was my point.

[Дени]

Never said it was invalid, I was just highlighting your failure to produce that which you claimed to be compiling.

Sure, but that was so much easier.

Yes, I saw that 'methodology' in action when you posted your wiki-link in support of the bogus assertion that Albanian is closer to Illyrian than the Slavic languages are.

No, that was just a list of Illyrian words.

Lack of methodology is when you say Macedonian is descended from a Paleo-Balkan language because Oseriates resembles езеро when written in simple Latin script.

Having an open mind towards alternative possibilities isn't un-scientific

I agree, but do apply at least some form of methodology.

You've yet to demonstrate why a Paleo-Balkan origin is more plausible. Word lists don't show anything more than [possible] cognates. The same could be done with German, for example, with the exact same, er, better results.

Directly from Illyrian to modern Macedonian? Probably not. Alot happened in the last 2,000 years.

So account for those 2,000 years because it's that 2,000 year gap in your hypothesis that renders your argument untestable and, therefore, less credible.

That's where you're wrong. Not all cognates are shared by other IE languages, nor are the sound changes that occured in Illyrian the same as all other IE languages. There are other factors to consider also where it concerns the relationship between the Illyrians and speakers of today's Slavic languages, such as geographic location, interaction between groups north and south of the Danube, and cultural heritage.

No. Geography, population and culture are tertiary factors. Without primary or secondary evidence, we cannot jump to these tertiary factors. This is something you're having a hard time understanding: linguistics is very rarely influenced by other disciplines. Again, this is just your confirmation bias.

[Дени]

And by the way, единствен is not an accurate translation of 'unique' in this case.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Yeah, after your sudeni za Makedonija example, I think we will leave it as is.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Sure, but that was so much easier.

Perhaps misleading readers comes naturally and easily to you.

Lack of methodology is when you say Macedonian is descended from a Paleo-Balkan language because Oseriates resembles езеро when written in simple Latin script.

Stop lying. What I said was that Baltic, Slavic and Paleo-Balkan languages derive from the same branch that split from PIE thousands of years ago, but they all underwent different changes, influences and stages of development. And there is much more than just a word in common.

You've yet to demonstrate why a Paleo-Balkan origin is more plausible.

More plausible than what, a Carpathian origin?

The same could be done with German, for example, with the exact same, er, better results.

Er..er......I won't wait for you to compile a list this time.

So account for those 2,000 years because it's that 2,000 year gap in your hypothesis that renders your argument untestable and, therefore, less credible.

We're in the process. Meanwhile, can you share with us your thoughts on the origin of the Albanian langauge?

No. Geography, population and culture are tertiary factors. Without primary or secondary evidence, we cannot jump to these tertiary factors. This is something you're having a hard time understanding: linguistics is very rarely influenced by other disciplines. Again, this is just your confirmation bias.

Geography, population and culture has a lot to do with it. Your perception of my understanding is flawed. You're too adamant about the topic and it's blinding you, take off the blinkers and start considering other factors and possibilities.

[Дени]

Yeah, after your sudeni za Makedonija example, I think we will leave it as is.

While the author has probably used the phrase much like it would be in English (also quite common in journalistic language), the phrase itself in proper Macedonian is grammatically wrong. Does процесирани за Македонија sound right to you?

I think you need to brush up on the use of the passive voice in Macedonian.

[Дени]

Stop lying. What I said was that Baltic, Slavic and Paleo-Balkan languages derive from the same branch that split from PIE thousands of years ago, but they all underwent different changes, influences and stages of development. And there is much more than just a word in common.

Either way, there's nothing to suggest Proto-Balto-Slavic (should such a stage have existed) descended from any other proto-language apart from Proto-Indo-European. The insufficient amount of evidence of Illyrian vocabulary and grammar makes the possibility of a new hypothesis impossible. It's a dead end.

Er..er......I won't wait for you to compile a list this time.

• nose / нос
• beard / брада
• rib / ребро
• day / ден
• night / ноќ
• sun / сонце
• month / месец
• salt / сол
• snow / снег
• water / вода
• wind / ветар
• dale / долина
• milk / млеко
• meat / месо
• nest / гнездо
• leaf / лист
• tree / дрво
• wolf / волк
• swine / свиња
• cow / крава
• bull / бик
• wasp / оса
• mother / мајка
• brother / брат
• sister / сестра
• man / маж
• thou / ти
• no / не
• me, my, mine / ме, мој, мене, ми
• be / *бити, биде
• am / сум

What now? According to your logic, there must have been a Proto-Germano-Balto-Slavic language which split off from PIE.

This proves that word lists are not enough, and we do not know enough about Illyrian to make any reevaluations.

Meanwhile, can you share with us your thoughts on the origin of the Albanian langauge?

Classification is complicated by the fact that it is, by all definitions, a language isolate: it is distinct from all other language families, and while there are a few competing theories, none are convincing enough for a definite classification.

Geography, population and culture has a lot to do with it. Your perception of my understanding is flawed. You're too adamant about the topic and it's blinding you, take off the blinkers and start considering other factors and possibilities.

But then you will conveniently arrive at your desired conclusion.

If you cannot come to a hypothesis using the comparative method, or any other method of historical linguistics, factors such as geography, population and culture are valueless and open to manipulation.

[Дени]

We're in the process.

You have your cognates, so now try and establish some correspondences.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Either way, there's nothing to suggest Proto-Balto-Slavic (should such a stage have existed) descended from any other proto-language apart from Proto-Indo-European.

Дени, you're confusing what I said. I agree that Proto Balto-Slavic descends from Proto Indo-European, I am just suggesting that there was a stage after PIE but before PBSl where the latter formed part of the same group as Proto Paleo-Balkan.

The insufficient amount of evidence of Illyrian vocabulary and grammar makes the possibility of a new hypothesis impossible. It's a dead end.

The lack of linguistic evidence makes it difficult to draw a solid conclusion, but it's not a dead end. People will keep exploring possibilities in an effort to find more plausible scenarios, you don't need to be a part of it if that is your wish.

What now? According to your logic, there must have been a Proto-Germano-Balto-Slavic language which split off from PIE.

A largely irrelevant comparison, as the reason you've so much words in German to compare is because it is a well documented language. In Illyrian, on the other hand, only a handful of recorded words have survived. Despite the certain differences between Paleo-Balkan and Balto-Slavic groups in lexicon and grammar, which arose from varying environments, surroundings and historical circumstances, words such as Osserria(tes) serve as rare, but important examples. The way it evolved from its PIE root closely resembles that of PBSl; only PBSl languages share this resemblance with Illyrian; the people who use this word in the Balkans live where the Illyrians had lived; it cannot have been a word borrowed by the 'invaders' of the Balkans during the 6th century as the west and east sub-groups of the Slavic language family also use a similar variant. All of that cannot be ignored because you lack the iniative or interest to explore the topic further.

Classification is complicated by the fact that it is, by all definitions, a language isolate: it is distinct from all other language families, and while there are a few competing theories, none are convincing enough for a definite classification.

Do you agree that there may be some ties to Indo-Iranian? Apparently Thracian can be ruled out because (aside from the small amount of lexical ties) Albanian does not follow a certain principle when constructing one word from two. What is your opinion on the below?

English: Phillip's Town
Thracian: Pulpudeva
Macedonian: Filipovgrad, Filipgrad, Filipova, Filipovo
Albanian: Qytet i Stalin and not Stalinqytet

But then you will conveniently arrive at your desired conclusin.

If you cannot come to a hypothesis using the comparative method, or any other method of historical linguistics, factors such as geography, population and culture are valueless and open to manipulation.

Only if it is logical and there is nothing credible to say otherwise. Like I said, I am still in the process.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I have created a new thread that deals with this topic more specifically.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4965

[Soldier of Macedon]

This was an interesting thread. I regret going so hard on Deni because since then till now I have broadened my knowledge and can see the error in some of my posts, thus I have a greater appreciation of what he was trying to get across with respect to certain words and their development. I will be the first to admit that at the time he knew far more than most of us where it concerns the subject of historical linguistics.

[Risto the Great]

Where do you feel your opinions have changed SoM?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Mostly on the origin and phonological development of Macedonian words. To be honest, his criticism actually forced me to look deeper into our language and adopt a more scientific approach where it concerns the relationship between Slavic, Baltic and Paleo-Balkan languages. That is not to say I don't have much more to learn, but it would have been good to discuss this topic with what I know now as I feel that I could have argued certain points in a more convincing manner.