Edinstveni Makedonski Zborovi - Unique Macedonian Words (postable)

[Дени]

You already do, I called it a characteristic and you were more specific by identifying that characteristic as a nasal vowel. It wasn't 'incorrect', as you were so quick to suggest.

The nasal vowels are a feature of Proto-Slavic. It's this feature that gave the nasal vowels in some modern Macedonian dialects, not:

an older IE characteristic with the retainment of 'n' before the 'd'.

While your comment was not entirely incorrect, I made a point for the sake of precision.

Perhaps you should apologise twice for your own confusion, as Pokorny's opinion below is based on the PIE root 'ghredh', so you're incorrect about gręsti -> gredi, because it would make more sense for ghredh -> gredi.

There's no confusion.

We are discussing two semantically different items with separate PIE reconstructions:

• *gręda, 'beam' < *ghrend-
• *gręsti, 'to go' < *grhed-

Is there a relation between something 'striding' and something 'beaming'?

'Beam' here refers to a piece of timber.

Could they have both derived from PIE 'ghrē' (grow)?

I'm doubtful.

Another interesting example is the word 'cheda' (child), and its older variant 'chenda'. In Proto Balto-Slavic this would have been something like 'kenda' or 'kinda', which in turn would bear relation to the Thracian word 'kentha(s)', perhaps originating from PIE 'ken-' (young).

There are two theories for чедо.

One states that the Early Proto-Slavic *činda (> Late Proto-Slavic *čędo) is an ancient loan from a Germanic language (*kinda). The other states that the Proto-Slavic *čędo was formed by suffixing *-do to the verb *čęti ('to begin').

Either way, both ultimately derive from the PIE root *ken- you mentioned.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It's this feature that gave the nasal vowels in some modern Macedonian dialects, not:

an older IE characteristic with the retainment of 'n' before the 'd'.

But you called this feature a nasal vowel yourself with your 'precision' correction. Are you now saying that it isn't?

There's no confusion.

Sure there is, you said it yourself:

Sorry for the confusion.

Don't be so quick to jump next time, save yourself the confusion.

We are discussing two semantically different items with separate PIE reconstructions:

We are, however, you did confuse one with the other earlier.

[*]*gręsti, 'to go' < *grhed-

Ghred -> Gred -> Gręsti. Let me know what exactly is confusing you with regard to the evolution of this word. Is it because Macedonian is closer to the PIE root than Proto-Slavic?

'Beam' here refers to a piece of timber.

In the structural sense; carrying loads or forces , connecting one point to another - which can be related to 'movement', and which is where 'beaming' (as in a laser) would also derive from.

I'm doubtful.

Why?

There are two theories for чедо.

One states that the Early Proto-Slavic *činda (> Late Proto-Slavic *čędo) is an ancient loan from a Germanic language (*kinda). The other states that the Proto-Slavic *čędo was formed by suffixing *-do to the verb *čęti ('to begin').

Either way, both ultimately derive from the PIE root *ken- you mentioned.

I find the first 'theory' more plausable, but only in that there is a relation between the two, not that Germanic passed it onto Proto-Slavic. Why have you avoided the reference I made to the Thracian equivalent?

Why have you not addressed the other questions I posed in the subsequent post I made?

[Дени]

While you're trying to figure out ways to prove us wrong

I have no need to prove you wrong.

This is a topic of interest for me and I'm merely trying to enrich the discussion.

I'd rather it not be a debate. After all, we are asking the same questions.

Which contemporary historical record from the time cites a mass migration?

There aren't any contemporary records of ancient human migrations. Ancient records do, however, document the appearances of Slavic tribes.

What DNA studies are you talking about, and which of them genetically connects Macedonians more with people from Russia than their neighbours in the Balkans?

I never said Macedonians were more closely related to other Slavs versus Balkan peoples. Rather, geneticists have made several observations which point to one of the common parental ancestries of modern Slavic-speakers.

Further to my first remark, Macedonians (and Bulgarians), according to these findings, are far more removed than the other Slavic meta-ethnicities. See this article.

The aboriginal element (Ancient Macedonian, Hellenic, Illyrian or Thracian, etc.) in Macedonians is dominant. A number of studies attest this.

What archaeological excavations, and which of those are definitively identified as belonging to a mass group of 'migrating Slavs'

None of the 'cultures' discovered by archeologists can be identified as being Slavic. It's the sum of all of these findings (archeological, ethnographic and linguistic), plus the recent genetic studies which give us the most plausible scientific theory.

When I asked you if it is at all possible that the Macedonians may have actually passed on something to the other people of the Balkans, you responded with the following:

I am still waiting for you to elaborate. Be specific.

OK, but are we still on the topic of language?

Meillet is wrong, and I challenge you to give me credible reasons why eg'hero (PIE) -> ezero (MKD) / ozero (RUS) is unrelated to 'osseria' (ILR).

They could very well be cognates. I don't disagree.

Did you speak to any ancient Illyrians during your recent trip?

No, but I did meet many Ancient Macedonians.

[Дени]

isn't "пешки" (peshki) the Macedonian word for "to walk" (walk)? Sentence: ајде да одиме на пешки.

Пешки is an adverb meaning 'by walking', 'by/on foot'.

So your sentence would be translated more accurately as "come on, let's go on foot".

I don't think iv'e ever heard of the word "gati".

But I'm sure you've heard of бега. Superficially, the connection isn't obvious. The OCS word běgati illustrates this a bit better.

NOTE: The suffix -ti indicates that the verb is an infinitive. This could be what threw you off because Macedonian has lost the infinitive.

[Дени]

But you called this feature a nasal vowel yourself with your 'precision' correction. Are you now saying that it isn't?

I was simply keeping to a timeline. Namely, PIE > PSl > Macedonian.

Sure there is, you said it yourself:

I was apologizing for confusing you.

Ghred -> Gred -> Gręsti. Let me know what exactly is confusing you with regard to the evolution of this word. Is it because Macedonian is closer to the PIE root than Proto-Slavic?

No, the Macedonian is closer to the Proto-Slavic:

PIE *grhed- > PSl *gręsti > греде (which is realized as [гре̃нди] in Kostur).

Denazalization has occurred in other dialects (ex. /рака, рука, рока/ in various dialects versus [ро̃нка] in Kostur).

So how is it that the modern form (which only exists in a dialect which has retained nasal vowels) is closer to the PIE reconstruction rather than the PSl reconstruction?

In the structural sense; carrying loads or forces , connecting one point to another - which can be related to 'movement', and which is where 'beaming' (as in a laser) would also derive from.

We should not attempt to apply modern English semantics to word forms which are not cognates (i.e. греда—beam).

Греда is simply a plank of wood. The English 'beam' and 'beaming' are unrelated in this context.

Why?

Answered directly above.

Why have you avoided the reference I made to the Thracian equivalent?

I didn't avoid it. I choose not to reference it directly because that would have been superfluous:

Either way, both ultimately derive from the PIE root *ken- you mentioned.

Again, sorry for the confusion.

Why have you not addressed the other questions I posed in the subsequent post I made?

In case I miss any again by going through all of your previous posts, could you please quote them in your next reply.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I'd rather it not be a debate.

Then don't make it one by presuming I am ignorant of the subject(s) being discussed, or thinking you're own knowledge cannot be enriched any further.

Ancient records do, however, document the appearances of Slavic tribes.

From migration to 'appearance', a wise change of terminology on your part. The fact that some groups north of the river Danube breached the 'borders' of East Rome to the south is not something I deny, what I question is the apparently 'alien' character of the emerging Slavic groups. The places they came from were historically peopled by Thracians and Illyrians; kindred people to those in the Balkans, their languages bore relation to the Paleo-Balkan languages, or at least a good deal of what we know of them. How else, if not by linguistic commonality, do you explain the 'ozero/osseria' example?

I never said Macedonians were more closely related to other Slavs versus Balkan peoples.

You initially indicated that Slavic 'migrations' are attested in DNA studies. And now you're saying that:

The aboriginal element (Ancient Macedonian, Hellenic, Illyrian or Thracian, etc.) in Macedonians is dominant. A number of studies attest this.

While your statements aren't necessarily contrary to each other, your initial point is not really relevant to Macedonians. I am sure there are some Germanic and Celtic elements in our DNA also.

None of the 'cultures' discovered by archeologists can be identified as being Slavic.

I know that, and now, you do too.

It's the sum of all of these findings (archeological, ethnographic and linguistic), plus the recent genetic studies which give us the most plausible scientific theory.

And what 'theory' is that?

OK, but are we still on the topic of language?

Does it make a difference? If you're done dancing around the question, show me something, anything, in your opinion, that Macedonians have passed on to others in the Balkans.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I was apologizing for confusing you.

No you weren't. Don't be proud, you made a mistake, it's ok.

No, the Macedonian is closer to the Proto-Slavic:

PIE *grhed- > PSl *gręsti > греде

How is it closer to Proto-Slavic when it starts and ends almost the same with PIE?

Ghred- (PIE)
Gredi (MKD)
Gręsti (PSL)

Греда is simply a plank of wood. The English 'beam' and 'beaming' are unrelated in this context.

It is the same thing, just an extended meaning. A plank of wood can still be considered a structural beam, don't minimise the context to suit your argument.

Again, sorry for the confusion.

This wasn't confusion on your part, instead, you didn't mention the Thracian equivalent because it doesn't suit your perception regarding our language. You would rather cite an apparent 'loan' from Germanic.

[Дени]

Then don't make it one by presuming I am ignorant of the subject(s) being discussed

I don't and you've shown that you're not.

or thinking you're own knowledge cannot be enriched any further.

Because I refuse to adopt your ideas?

From migration to 'appearance', a wise change of terminology on your part.

You're right, that was a poor choice of words.

How else, if not by linguistic commonality, do you explain the 'ozero/osseria' example?

Like I said:

They could very well be cognates. I don't disagree.

You initially indicated that Slavic 'migrations' are attested in DNA studies. And now you're saying that:

I am sure there are some Germanic and Celtic elements in our DNA also.

'Dominant' is the key word.

My point was that we, Macedonians, are genetically heterogeneous.

And what 'theory' is that?

Please see the article I linked to earlier.

Does it make a difference? If you're done dancing around the question, show me something, anything, in your opinion, that Macedonians have passed on to others in the Balkans.

• Cuisine — Тавче-гравче; it's also claimed that several types of pastries and relishes originate from Macedonia.
• Music — many distinctly Macedonian musical styles and techniques have been adopted by our neighbors, and then there's the folk songs...
• Language — spoken by non-ethnic Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia.

I don't have the time to write an exhaustive list.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Because I refuse to adopt your ideas?

What ideas?

Like I said:

If our language derives from north of the Danube, how were Illyrians using the same word before the 'appearance' of Slavic groups in the Balkans?

My point was that we, Macedonians, are genetically heterogeneous.

As are the rest of our neighbours and other Europeans. Why did you feel the need to make that point? For what purpose?

Please see the article I linked to earlier.

I would rather see you make the statement clinically and subsequently stand by it. What 'theory' is most plausible to you?

I don't have the time to write an exhaustive list.

Your example of language is generic, every state passes on the official language to their minorities. Your examples of cuisine and music are vague. Nobody is asking for an exhaustive list, but perhaps you can give an adequate elaboration on the points you've made. Then, once you've managed that, you may find time in your busy schedule to tell me how these were passed on to others in the Balkans.

[Дени]

How is it closer to Proto-Slavic when it starts and ends almost the same with PIE?

Ghred- (PIE)
Gredi (MKD)
Gręsti (PSL)

This is due to a morphophonemic alternation which occurs in the perfective form *gręsti (cf. 1-PERSON PRES *grędǫ).

It is the same thing, just an extended meaning. A plank of wood can still be considered a structural beam, don't minimise the context to suit your argument.

But it's impossible to comment on the meanings and the relatedness of the same outside the limited semantic context they're already in.

This wasn't confusion on your part, instead, you didn't mention the Thracian equivalent because it doesn't suit your perception regarding our language. You would rather cite an apparent 'loan' from Germanic.

The Thracian word is, in all likelihood, a cognate by way of derivation from PIE. Nothing suggests чедо arrived in Macedonian by way of Thracian. That's not because of my perception of anything, but because of the sound laws intricately described by experts in the field of Slavistics.

[Дени]

What ideas?

That a superficial comparison of two word forms demonstrates a 'linguistic commonality' and by the same method, that the modern Macedonian language is descended from a Paleo-Balkan language.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If our language derives from north of the Danube, how were Illyrians using the same word before the 'appearance' of Slavic groups in the Balkans?

Assuming the Illyrian word is indeed derived from the same PIE root, I don't see any argument. PIE fragmented long before the Slavic migration is said to have occurred.

As are the rest of our neighbours and other Europeans. Why did you feel the need to make that point? For what purpose?

Just as an additional note.

I would rather see you make the statement clinically and subsequently stand by it. What 'theory' is most plausible to you?

As in the ethnogenesis of our people?

Well... the Slavic homeland can most confidently be said to be near or in today's Ukraine based on the most recent DNA studies. This is of little importance.

Local tribes migrated out of this homeland, some of which reached our lands. They then assimilated the aboriginal population, adopting aspects of their culture. This lead to the beginning of a genetically hybrid meta-ethnicity which retained the older ethnonym. Various events over many hundreds of years culminated in a period of national awakening during the 19th century (what we call The Rebirth, Преродба). A codified Macedonian ethnicity was fostered by our intellectuals and since then we exist as a nation in the modern sense.

Your example of language is generic, every state passes on the official language to their minorities. Your examples of cuisine and music are vague. Nobody is asking for an exhaustive list, but perhaps you can give an adequate elaboration on the points you've made. Then, once you've managed that, you may find time in your busy schedule to tell me how these were passed on to others in the Balkans.

It's not something that is easy to answer considering we have been under the subjugation of our neighbors as recently as up until the 1990s according to some points of view. This blurs what is Macedonian and what is not.

You don't see my response as being adequate. So I'm interested in hearing your thoughts, specifically the relevance of this question not just in the context of this discussion/forum.

[Bratot]

Assuming the Illyrian word is indeed derived from the same PIE root, I don't see any argument. PIE fragmented long before the Slavic migration is said to have occurred.

Archaeological reconstruction of the Slavs:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=64436#post64436

Yes, now these are the official stands of the most prominent institutions, far more relevant than your panslavic outburst.

As in the ethnogenesis of our people?

Well... the Slavic homeland can most confidently be said to be near or in today's Ukraine based on the most recent DNA studies. This is of little importance.

How can this be of little importance when you specifically based your linguistic theory on the migration theory!?
I can provide at least 10 research on DNA strictly denying your laic informations.

It seems you have no idea which elements compose the ethnogenesis.

Local tribes migrated out of this homeland, some of which reached our lands. They then assimilated the aboriginal population, adopting aspects of their culture. This lead to the beginning of a genetically hybrid meta-ethnicity which retained the older ethnonym. Various events over many hundreds of years culminated in a period of national awakening during the 19th century (what we call The Rebirth, Преродба). A codified Macedonian ethnicity was fostered by our intellectuals and since then we exist as a nation in the modern sense.

What do you mean by "a codified ethnicity"?

Since you clearly conditioned the national consciousness with the intelectual level, how can the second develop in a national sense if the first was missing?

[Soldier of Macedon]

This is due to a morphophonemic alternation which occurs in the perfective form *gręsti (cf. 1-PERSON PRES *grędǫ).

Can you show me another example of a morphophonemic alternation from 'sti' to 'di' in Macedonian?

But it's impossible to comment on the meanings and the relatedness of the same outside the limited semantic context they're already in

.
No, it isn't. Much of these discussions commence in a certain context, I don't see anything wrong with thinking outside of the box so long as it is accompanied with some logic.

The Thracian word is, in all likelihood, a cognate by way of derivation from PIE. Nothing suggests чедо arrived in Macedonian by way of Thracian. That's not because of my perception of anything, but because of the sound laws intricately described by experts in the field of Slavistics.

I never said that 'che(n)do' arrived in Macedonian by way of Thracian. I believe that Macedonian and other languages that came to be known as Slavic have always used the word, just like Thracian has, and that both inherited the word from a common ancestor after PIE began to break away into separate groups.

[Soldier of Macedon]

That a superficial comparison of two word forms demonstrates a 'linguistic commonality' and by the same method, that the modern Macedonian language is descended from a Paleo-Balkan language.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You're wrong. See my explanation regarding 'chedo' in the previous post.

Assuming the Illyrian word is indeed derived from the same PIE root, I don't see any argument. PIE fragmented long before the Slavic migration is said to have occurred.

Which other languages aside from Illyrian and Slavic one's use a word for 'lake' that evolved in the same way?

Just as an additional note.

I suspect it had more purpose than that.

Well... the Slavic homeland can most confidently be said to be near or in today's Ukraine based on the most recent DNA studies. This is of little importance.

You may have swallowed it fully and are now confident in that 'theory', but it is far from being undisputed.

A codified Macedonian ethnicity was fostered by our intellectuals and since then we exist as a nation in the modern sense.

Define 'codified' and the state of the Macedonian identity prior to this 'codification' that you speak of?

You don't see my response as being adequate.

No, I don't.

So I'm interested in hearing your thoughts, specifically the relevance of this question not just in the context of this discussion/forum.

First you have no time for an exhaustive list, and now this. In the above statement I see you trying to look for an exit from a statement that you made. Why aren't you prepared to go into more detail?

[makedonin]

that is if we are to confidently assume that 'ss' did sound like 's' (or 'sh')

We can in deed confidently assume that "ss" sound is "sh".

This conclusion can be argued with the following support:

"Jessus" from Aramaic "Jeshua" and Hebrew "Joshua".
"Assyrian" from "Ashur" god of war.

It is evident that the native names included the "sh" sound and the Greek transcription is "ss".

It is also a Early Attic-Ionic "ss" developed trough palatization into Classical Attic "s".