Edinstveni Makedonski Zborovi - Unique Macedonian Words (postable)

[Rogi]

I'd like to know the origin of the word 'nevesta'.

[Risto the Great]

Чупе/чупа is from the Albanian çupë ("maid", "young lady").

Welcome Deni.

I cannot comment on many of your other observations. They seem reasonable. But to suggest a language such as Albanian so replete with loan words is the source for Чупе is optimistic.

[Дени]

I'd like to know the origin of the word 'nevesta'.

Hi, Rogi.

In Macedonian, невеста is also Common Slavic (from *nevěsta). Compare: OCS невѣста, Czech nevěsta, Serbian and Russian невеста, and a few others.

Welcome Deni.

I cannot comment on many of your other observations. They seem reasonable. But to suggest a language such as Albanian so replete with loan words is the source for Чупе is optimistic.

Thank you, Risto!

As for чупе, please see the following extract from Блаже Конески, Историја на македонскиот јазик (1986 г.), стр. 217:

Контактот со албанскиот. 226. Co албанскиот e ист случај како со романскиот. Заемките од албанскиот се малку, пa и тие се ограничени главно на говорите во западна Македонија. Од албанско потекло се зборовите даше (dash), чупа/чупе (çup[r]ë) и коа (kohë, „време"). Во поголем број албанските зборови нашле упспреба во т. н. тајни јазици, жаргони употребувани од мајсторски тајфи од западна Македонија, со цел да не бидат разбирани во средината каде што работат.

So you're right to be suspicious of a word which is claimed to be an Albanian loanword, but not because Albanian has so many loans.

[Rogi]

Hi Deni, thanks for that, though it doesn't give me much... Is there some sort of breakdown of the word, etc that shows it's origin and parts?


On a separate note, I'd also like to know the etymological origins of the name of the Goddess Vesta / Hestia?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Чупе/чупа is from the Albanian çupë ("maid", "young lady").

I find that hard to believe. Please corroborate your statement some more, Blazhe Koneski is by no means perfect in his assessments either.

Кревет is from Turkish (ultimately from Greek).

Care to corroborate? Provide the etymology of the word in Greek.

Извичникот „опа“ исто така се смета за турцизам во нашиот и грчкиот јазик. Оваа етимологија ја прочитав во една книга која, за жал, во моментов не ја имам при рака.

Koa kje ti tekni, please corroborate that also.

Welcome by the way, Deni, perhaps when you're done with your efforts to highlight the errors on this thread, you can cite some examples of unique words in Macedonian, if you're that way inclined.

[Дени]

Is there some sort of breakdown of the word, etc that shows it's origin and parts?

Of course.

A literal translation of the Proto-Slavic *nevěsta would be "unknown" (cf. Macedonian неизвесна).

Deconstructing it morphologically we get *ne (negation) and *věsta (from the verb *věsti, "to know").

There are two theories as to why a bride came to be called that. One theory states that it reflects the ancient custom of finding partners outside of one's birthplace/hometown (hence the woman would be unknown in her new home). The second states that it relates to a superstition of protecting a bride from evil spirits. Compare the latter theory to the custom of Roman brides wearing the flammeum on their wedding day.

Please let me know if you'd like me to elaborate some more, Rogi.

[Дени]

I find that hard to believe.

It's not a Slavic, not from a classical language and almost completely restricted to (read: native to) Prilep-Bitola-Lerin.

I don't see what else it could be.

It has always been considered an Albanian loan and is treated as such in Greek (where it has been loaned as tsoupra).

This, at least, is what I have been taught. What are your thoughts?

Blazhe Koneski is by no means perfect in his assessments either.

Just in relation to чупе or something else he has written?

Care to corroborate? Provide the etymology of the word in Greek.

Ancient Greek krabbatos. Wiktionary gives a reconstructed Ancient Macedonian form *grabos as an etymology for krabbatos (see here).

Koa kje ti tekni, please corroborate that also.

It's claimed to be from the Turkish hop.

I'll have a look in some etymological dictionaries.

Do you think it could be an onomatopoeia?

Welcome by the way, Deni,

Thanks again. It's a nice forum.

cite some examples of unique words in Macedonian, if you're that way inclined.

What is 'unique' though?

Just semantic shifts between Proto-Slavic derivations? Neologisms? Loanwords which haven't been imported into another language?

[Soldier of Macedon]

It's not a Slavic.....

Not all Macedonian words are found in other Slavic languages.

.....not from a classical language...

Not attested, it doesn't mean it didn't exist in an earlier form (not that I am necessarily implying it did).

.......Prilep-Bitola-Lerin.

How about places in western Macedonia where the ethnic Albanians have historically had more interaction with the Macedonians, doesn't it seem more logical that they would be using the word rather than people in Prilep-Bitola-Lerin?

I don't see what else it could be.

You seem to have made up your mind already, and haven't allowed for the possibility that it may be a local construct.

It has always been considered an Albanian loan and is treated as such in Greek (where it has been loaned as tsoupra).

By who? How do you propose this came about?

As for Blaze Koneski, please feel free to open a thread about him (so we don't veer too far from the topic) and some of his works, I would be more than happy to discuss.

Ancient Greek krabbatos. Wiktionary gives a reconstructed Ancient Macedonian form *grabos as an etymology for krabbatos (see here).

Do you believe there is any % relation between the Slavic languages and the languages of the ancient Macedonians, Illyrians and Thracians? First let me understand your perspective so I can know where you stand on the matter. By the way, I think you missed my question, what is the etymology for Krevet in Greek?

Do you think it could be an onomatopoeia?

What would you propose the sound source to be?

What is 'unique' though?

Just semantic shifts between Slavic substratum words? Neologisms? Loanwords which haven't been imported into another language?

Give us some examples from all of the above and let's discuss.

[Дени]

Not all Macedonian words are found in other Slavic languages.

My point was that it cannot be traced to a Slavic root and hence not a native word.

Not attested, it doesn't mean it didn't exist in an earlier form (not that I am necessarily implying it did).

Exactly right. There's no evidence to suggest it's a native word.

Given its frequency of use in Albanian VS Macedonian and Greek, distribution and historical factors (which I'll explain in my next point), I can only agree with Koneski's claim.

How about places in western Macedonia where the ethnic Albanians have historically had more interaction with the Macedonians, doesn't it seem more logical that they would be using the word rather than people in Prilep-Bitola-Lerin?

No.

Those people are more exposed to Albanian and some even speak it, so чупе would be easily identifiable as foreign. Also, very few Christians have been assimilated into the Muslim Albanian community and without the need to loan the word чупе, then no, it would not be more logical.

However, in the sub-dialects of Prilep-Bitola-Lerin we can find traces of the occupational cryptolects which were once used by tradesmen in those areas. Чупа/чупе was one of the words loaned from Albanian and used in their cant. Pavel Borisov Nikolov (Bulgarian) has collected many of these words and given their etymologies:

Чупа, същ. Мома (М – 1, 3, 4, 6, 7). – От алб. çupkё (sic) ‘мома, момиче’.
Чупела, същ. Мома (М – 2, 5). – От алб. çupkё (sic) ‘мома, момиче’.

SOURCE

haven't allowed for the possibility that it may be a local construct.

I don't see how that's likely (especially in this case).

Can you please explain what you mean by 'local construct'?

Do you believe there is any % relation between the Slavic languages and the languages of the ancient Macedonians, Illyrians and Thracians?

Of course there are.

But I'll assume you mean the modern Slavic languages being descended from Paleo-Balkan languages? In which case, no, such a link would be impossible to determine scientifically.

First let me understand your perspective so I can know where you stand on the matter.

I don't have an agenda if that's what you meant.

By the way, I think you missed my question, what is the etymology for Krevet in Greek?

The modern Greek word is a descendant of the Attic krabbatos.

Going back further, I can only quote A Greek-English Lexicon which derives it from the Ancient Macedonian *grabos (reconstructed from grabion, "oak"), from the PIE root *grabh-.

Relating this to your earlier statement ("...relation between the Slavic languages and the languages of the ancient Macedonians..."), кревет can not have been derived directly from *grabos given the expected changes which have occurred.

What would you propose the sound source to be?

An ideophone then.

[Дени]

Just to note that spolaiti is not one word. It is 'spolaj ti'. Another use 'spolaj mu na boga' or 'spolaj ti boze'.

I'd say this expression is probably Greek: is pola eti/is eti polla (cf. Macedonian за многу години).

Compare to the Russian исполать ("hail") and сполать (dial. "thank you").

[Risto the Great]

Interesting observations and dialogue Deni. Thanks for your participation. I am not sure I can embrace your suggestion that all Macedonian words must come from a slavic root. Further, what do you rely on to suggest slavic is the substratum language?

кревет can not have been derived directly from *grabos given the expected changes which have occurred.

Would you mind expanding on this?

cheers

[makedonin]

I'd say this expression is probably Greek: is pola eti/is eti polla (cf. Macedonian за многу години).

Compare to the Russian исполать ("hail") and сполать (dial. "thank you").

If similar constructs exist in Russian, than you can't state that it is probably Greek.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Exactly right. There's no evidence to suggest it's a native word.

Or otherwise.

Given its frequency of use in Albanian VS Macedonian and Greek......

Frequency of use in Albanian? Please elaborate.

Those people are more exposed to Albanian and some even speak it, so чупе would be easily identifiable as foreign.

And it wouldn't be easily identifiable as foreign to somebody from Bitola?

However, in the sub-dialects of Prilep-Bitola-Lerin we can find traces of the occupational cryptolects which were once used by tradesmen in those areas. Чупа/чупе was one of the words loaned from Albanian and used in their cant.

What traces? Go into a little more detail and corroborate, because at the moment all you have is Koneski and someone named Nikolov, who appears to be a Bulgar blogger with a piece of paper. Was he your teacher in language and literature?

haven't allowed for the possibility that it may be a local construct.

I don't see how that's likely (especially in this case).

Can you please explain what you mean by 'local construct'?

I think you know what I mean, otherwise you wouldn't have answered the question. You and I have different perceptions of what is 'likely'.

But I'll assume you mean the modern Slavic languages being descended from Paleo-Balkan languages? In which case, no, such a link would be impossible to determine scientifically.

So what exactly are the links between the two groups then, in your opinion? In the absence of direct scientific evidence, what do you consider probable where it concerns the origin of the Macedonian language?

кревет can not have been derived directly from *grabos given the expected changes which have occurred.

You can elaborate on that in reply to RtG, and also explain how kravvatos qualifies but krevet doesn't, as the only difference, aside from one vowel (a-e), is a suffix.

[Дени]

I am not sure I can embrace your suggestion that all Macedonian words must come from a slavic root.

Well of course not.

A Macedonian words is one which is used in the Macedonian language.

Further, what do you rely on to suggest slavic is the substratum language?

My mistake! I didn't mean to say substratum.

I meant to say that Macedonian emerged from Proto-Slavic as with all other Slavic languages.

Would you mind expanding on this?

Sure.

The Turkish (kerevet) ← Greek (krevati) exchange shows how <a> was replaced with <e> (vowel harmony) and the initial consonant cluster <kr> had a vowel inserted (as initial consonant clusters are avoided in Turkish).

If similar constructs exist in Russian, than you can't state that it is probably Greek.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Please corroborate your statement just as I have done with mine.

[makgerman]

Deni, can you please share with us words that originate from Macedonia?