Makedonski Narodni i Patriotski Pesni - Macedonian Folk & Patriotic Songs

[Soldier of Macedon]

Well... no. Take Australia for instance. The works of Anna Kokkinos, Nandia Tass or George Miller are essentially Australian artistic products, not Greek (one can hardly trace Greek elements in... Mad Max). And mind you, these artists are first and second generation immigrants (not fifth).

Australia is a cosmopolitan nation, consisting largely of settlers and immigrants (and their descendants). It's interesting that you would compare Greece to such a country from the 'new world' rather than a more traditional society from Europe or elsewhere. Anyway, you're comparing apples with oranges. Those three individuals are film directors and their modern and contemporary movies contribute to Australian/American cinematic culture. They are not singers or composers of traditional music which forms part of their supposed ethnic culture and heritage. Do you understand the difference? If a person from Greece made an animated film (like George Miller's 'Happy Feet') in a theme common to Greece, or in the Greek language, or a combination of these and other factors, etc, I would be prepared to consider such a film as being a part of Greek culture. If that same person sings a traditional song in the Macedonian language which has been known to the Macedonian community for several decades if not longer, even if they're in the middle of Athens, it still has nothing to do with Greek culture. The fact that this needs to be explained to you so many times is indicative of how twisted the concept of culture has become in Greece.

[Amphipolis]

I see Australia as a culturally British country that has managed only recently to form its own unique identity (basically composing the British ancestry of the people with the mysterious Australian landscape and later the non-British immigrants).

Performing a Greek song in Australia does not make the song Australian. Yet, if a Greek band could produce and compose Greek songs over there, these songs would also belong to the heritage of Australia. Are there such examples? As far as I know, there aren't.

[Solun]

Performing a Greek song in Australia does not make the song Australian. Yet, if a Greek band could produce and compose Greek songs over there, these songs would also belong to the heritage of Australia. Are there such examples? As far as I know, there aren't.

Can anybody outside of Greece explain this logic to me?

[Karposh]

Performing a Greek song in Australia does not make the song Australian.

No one will argue with you there Amphipolis. I'm pretty sure that's what we've been trying to tell you all along. In the same vein, performing Macedonian songs in Greece does not make those songs Greek. Just simple, common sense...I would've thought.

Yet, if a Greek band could produce and compose Greek songs over there, these songs would also belong to the heritage of Australia.

Here's where we run into trouble with these views of yours and leaves us scratching our heads at such twisted Greek logic. If a Greek band could produce and compose Greek songs here in Australia, the Greek songs are still part of the Greek cultural heritage. Surely you can see that. Even if Greek songs were composed in China or anywhere else on Earth, the songs are still an expression of the Greek linguistic cultural identity and can belong to no other group other than the Greeks. However, if a Greek band (1st generation or 5th generation, it doesn't matter) composed traditional Australian folk songs such as "Click Go the Shears" or "Tie Me Kangaroo Down Sport", then yes, those songs become part of the heritage of Australia since the mainstream Australian society has taken the songs to heart as expressions of traditional Australian culture and music.

Are there such examples? As far as I know, there aren't.

Only in Greece are there such examples: Bela Lympio, Sofka, Eleno Mome, etc.

[Amphipolis]

Only in Greece are there such examples: Bela Lympio, Sofka, Eleno Mome, etc.

Tell us more about the other two songs, and what your point is.

[Karposh]

Tell us more about the other two songs, and what your point is.

Why do you purposely play dumb all the time? You know very well what my point is.

Performing a Greek song in Australia does not make the song Australian. Yet, if a Greek band could produce and compose Greek songs over there, these songs would also belong to the heritage of Australia. Are there such examples? As far as I know, there aren't.

Well, no shit. Of course there aren't any examples of Greek composed and produced songs in Australia being touted by Australians as belonging to the cultural heritage of Australia. That was the point you were trying to make wasn't it? That Greek songs originating in Australia automatically become part of the cultural heritage of Australia. That is complete rubbish. No Australian in his right mind would ever take pride in claiming Greek language songs as their own which represent a foreign culture. But there are definitely examples of Macedonian songs originating from Aegean Macedonia being claimed by Greeks as belonging to the cultural heritage of Greece. What would you like me to tell you about the other two songs songs I rattled off the top of my head. I'm not trying to dissect the songs that originate from Aegean Macedonia here like we did with Bela Lympio, I'm just telling you that, contrary to Greek views, those songs do not belong do the cultural heritage of Greece. Here's a couple more off the top of my head "Koga ke odish mome za voda", "Otvori Leno", “Tvojte Ochi Leno”, the list goes on.

[Amphipolis]

Why do you purposely play dumb all the time? You know very well what my point is.

I only have very first findings. It would be more normal for you to say what you know about these songs, so that we can scrutinize it and add information.

Well, no shit. Of course there aren't any examples of Greek composed and produced songs in Australia being touted by Australians as belonging to the cultural heritage of Australia. That was the point you were trying to make wasn't it? That Greek songs originating in Australia automatically become part of the cultural heritage of Australia. That is complete rubbish. No Australian in his right mind would ever take pride in claiming Greek language songs as their own which represent a foreign culture.

But there are definitely examples of Macedonian songs originating from Aegean Macedonia being claimed by Greeks as belonging to the cultural heritage of Greece. What would you like me to tell you about the other two songs songs I rattled off the top of my head. I'm not trying to dissect the songs that originate from Aegean Macedonia here like we did with Bela Lympio, I'm just telling you that, contrary to Greek views, those songs do not belong do the cultural heritage of Greece. Here's a couple more off the top of my head "Koga ke odish mome za voda", "Otvori Leno", “Tvojte Ochi Leno”, the list goes on.

I don’t know. You’re the Australian. Isn’t Australia interested at all in the artistic creation of its’ ethnic communities? Would they bother to write an appendix or a chapter about it in a book about Australian art? Is there such (worth mentioning) creation to start with?

Every person or artistic product DOES have a national stamp, yet not necessarily a clear one. Blade Runners is not a clearly British or American film, it’s both. Hitchcock is not just British, he’s also American and most of his important and mature work is American, not British. Both countries can be proud of him and his work. Chaplin is more American than British (though he never became an American citizen), almost all of his work is American.

My previous post saying:

… one can see both approaches (by Simon Carras’ wife Angeliki and by Costas Novakis) yet both of them are highly appreciated in Greece. Such songs in different languages DO belong to the cultural heritage of Greece (the country) not of Greeks (the people) except of course if the authors are Greek.


is short, clear and balanced and reminds you that there’s not only ONE Greek view. Thus, yes, Bella Lympio, DOES seem to belong to the cultural heritage of Greece, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t also belong to your people or country if that’s how you see it. If it is Koios views that angered you, I remind you that this is a song about his family, it doesn’t… belong to him.

Lastly, the origins of traditional songs are hard to find but that’s why it’s worth trying. It’s fair that you should tell us more about the songs you mentioned, and I’ll see what I can find from Greek sources. It seems totally relevant to the title of the thread.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Performing a Greek song in Australia does not make the song Australian.

I agree, just like performing a Macedonian song in Greece doesn't make it Greek.

Yet, if a Greek band could produce and compose Greek songs over there, these songs would also belong to the heritage of Australia.

Sure, but only because they happen to find themselves in that location. Like I said before, it's incidental. Take Albanian songs produced in Macedonia, for example. The right to claim these songs as part of the heritage of the Macedonian republic is dwarfed by the right of Albanians (irrespective of where they are) to claim them as part of the heritage and culture of their own people.

[Niko777]

Thanks for the Griva link Amphipolis. That was really interesting. Unfortunately, it hasn't cleared up my original query regarding the original Macedonian lyrics of the song. That is, before the locals decided to change the words to this 100 year old song in order to keep the Greeks happy. The song's lyrics that are given on the web site are in Greek and not Macedonian. I want to know how Olimpia's family and friends sang this song 100 years ago, not how the Greeks sing it today!

From the rather awkward google translation, "The Speaking local dialect, spoken in Griva and narration of history was, are the locals..." it is quite obvious this article was written for a Greek audience. What does the author mean exactly by "local dialect?" The cryptic terms the Greeks use in order to hide the existence of the Macedonian speaking citizens living in Greece never fail to amaze me. This time "local dialect" is used in place of Macedonian. Not even "slavophone" or "dopia." Any hint of difference from Greek is purposely being blurred out here.

This is quite amusing actually, since it is no secret that the Kukush village of Kriva is a almost exclusively all Macedonian (with the exception of some Pontic families). So, since the Griva web site has not provided an adequate answer, the question remains, what are the original Macedonian words to the song Bela Limpio? I'm not the only one asking this question either. Some Greeks are interested in the truth too it would seem, judging by the comments on the Greek web site "greekdancing.org."

By simply disguising the Macedonian language as a "local dialect" and giving the impression that the Kriva residents speak some northern Greek dialect doesn't answer my question at all. I want to know how the locals sang the song before they were forced to change the words from Macedonian to Greek to avoid any troubles with the Greek authorities of the time.

Here you go Karposh, the song Bela Limpio with its original Macedonian lyrics (plus a lot of Turkish words)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfSUvlGB7QE

[Karposh]

Here you go Karposh, the song Bela Limpio with its original Macedonian lyrics (plus a lot of Turkish words)

Thanks for that Niko. "A lot of Turkish words" is an understatement. The majority of the song was in Turkish. I could only make out a few Macedonian words here and there which came as a surprise because the village Kriva, where this song apparently first originated, is ethnically Macedonian - to this day.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here's a beautiful Macedonian song. Call me biased or whatever, but this type of culturally rich music truly sets Macedonian apart when it comes to the Balkans. Everything about it is brilliant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzmChfABgig

[Karposh]

"Ja Izlezi Gjurgjo" by Next Time. To say that I really like this song would be the understatement of the century. It's had over 3,300,000 views and I reckon I account for at least half of those views. It's absolutely beautiful. A master piece of this type of genre where they take an old Macedonian folk song and give it a new modern twist. It doesn't always work but when done correctly, it takes your breath away. This song by Next Time is a perfect example of this type of Macedonian music genre...And I'm not even a fan of any of their previous work. Sit back, relax and enjoy (if you haven't already had the pleasure).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12pu3mmZD_A

[Momce Makedonce]

"Ja Izlezi Gjurgjo" by Next Time. To say that I really like this song would be the understatement of the century. It's had over 3,300,000 views and I reckon I account for at least half of those views. It's absolutely beautiful. A master piece of this type of genre where they take an old Macedonian folk song and give it a new modern twist. It doesn't always work but when done correctly, it takes your breath away. This song by Next Time is a perfect example of this type of Macedonian music genre...And I'm not even a fan of any of their previous work. Sit back, relax and enjoy (if you haven't already had the pleasure).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12pu3mmZD_A

Surely they have to give this a go at Eurovision one year!

[Karposh]

Surely they have to give this a go at Eurovision one year!

I've often thought that too. But it looks like the Eurovision Rules prevent us from entering this version of the song. I just looked up Wikipedia's page on the "Rules of The Eurovision Song Contest" and here's what it says:

"The entering song is also not allowed to be a cover version, and is not allowed to sample another artist's work. All songs must be completely original in terms of songwriting and instrumentation, and may not have been released publicly before 1 September of the year preceding. If released publicly, it may only be released in the entrant country's market until after the contest."

[Momce Makedonce]

I've often thought that too. But it looks like the Eurovision Rules prevent us from entering this version of the song. I just looked up Wikipedia's page on the "Rules of The Eurovision Song Contest" and here's what it says:

"The entering song is also not allowed to be a cover version, and is not allowed to sample another artist's work. All songs must be completely original in terms of songwriting and instrumentation, and may not have been released publicly before 1 September of the year preceding. If released publicly, it may only be released in the entrant country's market until after the contest."

Sorry Karposh I just saw this reply.

That`s a real shame I think it would have been amazing. On another note I really think that they should get back to singing in Macedonian when performing at Eurovision. There seems to be a trend of preferring to sing in English which definitely takes away the uniqueness of the performance.