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Old 01-06-2019, 07:08 PM   #1
Gocka
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Default Civil dissidence around the world (current)

I wanted to start a new thread about civil dissidence and disobedience in the world today. A cross between current news and also a discussion around it and how it can be used in Macedonia.

It is no secret that a successful overturning of the Prespa agreement requires changing the current Zaev government, but that alone is not enough.

Macedonians need to learn how make their elected leaders respect and fear the people. For too long Macedonian politicians act with impunity. Even when Macedonians have disagreed with the actions of their government, it has made little to no difference in how the government behaves.

At the end of the day politicians only fear three things:
-They fear for their legacy.
-They fear for their reelection.
-They fear for their lives.

Macedonians must learn to read their political leaders and decide collectively which point of pressure is necessary.

For the most part Macedonian politicians have shown a total disregard for the first, an indifference to the second, but have never really feared for the third.

The third option needs to be exercised from time to time to keep them honest. The first two are more for maintenance purposes.

We will never really know how Macedonians feel about any number of issues unless they start to speak up and make actual demands of their government. Otherwise we leave it all to the propagandists to paint the picture, for better or for worse.
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Old 01-06-2019, 07:11 PM   #2
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A good example might be what is happening in France.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1P00KG

Quote:
France's Macron reeling as tough stance against 'yellow vests' backfires

Richard Lough, Caroline Pailliez
5 MIN READ

PARIS (Reuters) - Emmanuel Macron intended to start the new year on the offensive against the ‘yellow vest’ protesters. Instead, the French president is reeling from more violent street demonstrations.

Fire is seen near a Christmas market during a demonstration by the "yellow vests" movement at Boulevard Saint Germain in Paris, France, January 5, 2019. REUTERS/Gonzalo Fuentes
What began as a grassroots rebellion against diesel taxes and the high cost of living has morphed into something more perilous for Macron - an assault on his presidency and French institutions.

The anti-government protesters on Saturday used a forklift truck to force their way into a government ministry compound, torched cars near the Champs Elysees and in one violent skirmish on a bridge over the Seine punched and kicked riot police officers to the ground.

The French authorities’ struggle to maintain order during the weekend protests raises questions not just over policing tactics but also over how Macron responds, as he prepares to bring in stricter rules for unemployment benefits and cut thousands of public sector jobs.

SPONSORED


On Sunday evening, Macron wrote on Twitter: “Once again, the Republic was attacked with extreme violence - its guardians, its representatives, its symbols.”

His administration had hardened its stance against the yellow vests after the protest movement appeared to have lost momentum over the Christmas holidays.

The government would not relent in its pursuit of reforms to reshape the economy, government spokesman Benjamin Griveaux said on Friday, branding the remaining protesters agitators seeking to overthrow the government.

Twenty-four hours later, he was fleeing his office out of a back door as protesters invaded the courtyard and smashed up several cars. “It wasn’t me who was attacked,” he later said. “It was the Republic.”


Driving the unrest is anger, particularly among low-paid workers, over a squeeze on household incomes and a belief that Macron is indifferent to citizens’ needs as he enacts reforms seen as pro-business and favoring the wealthy.

Macron’s government has been shaken by the unrest, caught off-guard when in November the yellow vests began blocking roads, occupying highway tollbooths and staging violent invasions of Paris and other cities on weekends.

Two months on, it has not found a way to soothe the yellow vests’ anger and meet their demands, which include a higher minimum wage, a more participative democracy and Macron’s resignation.

With no clear leader, negotiating with the group is hard.

FILE PHOTO: French President Emmanuel Macron visits the Renault Maubeuge Construction Automobile factory in Maubeuge, France, November 8, 2018. REUTERS/Philippe Wojazer/File Photo
“IMPASSE”
Macron sought to head off the rebellion in December with a promise of tax cuts for pensioners, wage rises for the poorest workers and a reversal of planned fuel tax hikes, while pledging a national debate on key policy issues. He fell short.

The price tag for those concessions: 10 billion euros ($11.39 billion), enough to send French borrowing costs higher as investors fretted about debt levels and Macron’s ability to reform the euro zone’s second largest economy.

Laurent Berger, head of the reform-minded CFDT trade union, France’s largest by members, on Sunday accused Macron’s government of going it alone at a time it needed to reach out.

“We’re at an impasse. We have on the one side a violent movement ... and on the other a government which thinks it can find the answers all on its own,” Berger told France Inter.

Some 50,000 protesters marched through cities and towns across France, including Paris, Bordeaux, Toulouse, Rennes and Marseille.

'Yellow vests' gather for first protest of 2019
In Paris, the street marches began peacefully but degenerated when some protesters threw punches at baton-wielding officers, torched electric scooters and garbage bins along the Left Bank’s upscale Boulevard Saint Germain and set cars ablaze near the Champs Elysees. Clashes erupted in other cities too.

Both yellow vests and “casseurs”, hooded youths from anti-capitalist or anarchist groups, appeared to be involved.

Labour Minister Muriel Penicaud said the prolonged unrest was hurting foreign investment.

Opposition lawmakers demanded the government put forward concrete proposals to address the yellow vests’ demands, but government ministers dismissed caving in to a minority of troublemakers.

“We need to stop being a country that listens to those who cry the loudest,” Education Minister Jean-Michel Blanquer told LCI news channel.
Take note of that comment right at the end. Talk about throwing fuel on the fire. Wait until that starts to circulate.
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Old 01-07-2019, 08:03 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
...At the end of the day politicians only fear three things:
-They fear for their legacy.
-They fear for their reelection.
-They fear for their lives.

...For the most part Macedonian politicians have shown a total disregard for the first, an indifference to the second, but have never really feared for the third.

The third option needs to be exercised from time to time to keep them honest...
I wonder if there has been a single Macedonian politician since independence that has been proud of his political legacy.

The current crop of politicians will have the ultimate legacy of betrayal hanging around their necks for eternity...now that's a legacy.
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Old 01-07-2019, 08:18 PM   #4
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I wonder if there has been a single Macedonian politician since independence that has been proud of his political legacy.
I think you're looking at it the wrong way.
None of them even give a rat's arse about their legacy. It is nothing to be proud of or disappointed with. They would only be disappointed if they didn't steal enough during their time in position of power.
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Old 01-07-2019, 08:31 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
I think you're looking at it the wrong way.
None of them even give a rat's arse about their legacy. It is nothing to be proud of or disappointed with. They would only be disappointed if they didn't steal enough during their time in position of power.
I think it was this rampant and unabated thievery that has made the capitulation to greece a done deal.
Every single one of those thieves have been caught with their dirty little hands in the cookie jar at one time or another, they were given enough rope and they took every last millimetre of it and now when threatened by the crooked judicial system overseen and run by the US embassy in Skopje those politicians have sold Macedonia down the river just to save their own skins...what a pathetic and embarrassing pack of cunts that I will no longer call my people.
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Old 01-07-2019, 08:40 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
I wonder if there has been a single Macedonian politician since independence that has been proud of his political legacy.

The current crop of politicians will have the ultimate legacy of betrayal hanging around their necks for eternity...now that's a legacy.
I think Ivanov might break the mould.
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Old 01-07-2019, 10:06 PM   #7
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I think Ivanov might break the mould.
Agreed. And he would have had ample opportunity to sell himself!
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Old 01-08-2019, 10:47 AM   #8
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He may not have sold himself, but he has been just as ineffectual as the rest of them. I refer to my recent post in the thread dedicated to Ivanov.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogi View Post
I think Ivanov might break the mould.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Agreed. And he would have had ample opportunity to sell himself!
We need to start holding these people to a higher standard. We have let our expectations drop so low that merely not committing outright treason is seen as a success.
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Old 01-08-2019, 09:07 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
We need to start holding these people to a higher standard. We have let our expectations drop so low that merely not committing outright treason is seen as a success.
I think this statement alone tell you everything you need to know about Macedonian politicians - Ivanov included.

On civil disobedience, Macedonians are experts. They don't obey a single law ever. Any obedience is accidental and unintended.
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Old 01-08-2019, 09:44 PM   #10
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LOL, no comment, just sitting here chuckling to myself like a lunatic.

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On civil disobedience, Macedonians are experts. They don't obey a single law ever. Any obedience is accidental and unintended.
You can get them to do almost anything, except for the right fucking thing.
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