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Old 06-19-2018, 07:06 AM   #11
mklion
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Originally Posted by Albo View Post
I just posted the numbers..

I didn't assume anything about future demographic trends..
The state statistical office has a minimal amount of Albanians working in it.. its always been an institution that has been protected my the Macedonians since it was created..

Albanians have never belived the figures given 100%
As for me.. I'm not sure..
As for migration numbers.. this is where it will be interesting in the upcoming census..
Mass migration had occurred not only in the Albanian community (as has been the trend for decades)
But now many Macedonian majority towns and villages have been drained of youth.. ask anyone who lives in MK or has been recently...

Its a dangerous trend not only for MK but for the region.. the Balkans I belive will be a new home fom many skilled educated Asian and African migrants in 10 years..if migration trends continue across all ethnic groups ..
LoL. You use the SSO to cherry pick "official data" that show a negative view of Macedonians in a specific point in time but fail to show any trends in the country.

Then when I use the same source to show things from a different angle you discredit the same source you yourself used!!! As if there is some conspiracy against Albanians because Albanians don't work in the SSO. LMFAO!

The reason the Albanians have not believed in the numbers is because they are delusional. They gain rights bases on percentages in the country. It's in their interest to inflate them. The only time anything was faked in the country was the 2002 census where Albanians from in Oslomej, Zajas, Struga that live in the diaspora were added to their total for the census to artificially increase their number to over 25% under the ohrid framework agreement.
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Old 06-19-2018, 07:46 AM   #12
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LoL. You use the SSO to cherry pick "official data" that show a negative view of Macedonians in a specific point in time but fail to show any trends in the country.*

Then when I use the same source to show things from a different angle you discredit the same source you yourself used!!! As if there is some conspiracy against Albanians because Albanians don't work in the SSO. LMFAO!
There is no need to show or point out any "other angle"
I didn't hint to any trend.. I just posted data from the SSO..

Albanians could be more could be less.. It only gives a version of statistics that could be 100% correct.. but until the SSO Is open to all ethnic groups and is more transparent there will always be doubt and suspicion..

Also just a side note on your student numbers and the percentages
The 55% of students that Study in Macedonian aren't all ethnic Macedonian..
Eg. Most Roma, Turks Serbs and others study in Macedonian..
Also many Albanians from Skopje and other regions where Albanians are a minority eg Bitola, Resen, Ohrid, Prilep,Krushevo Veles ect.. are educated in Macedonian.. simply because there aren't any or quality Albanian language schools in those regions..or parents choose to send them to Macedonian schools..

Quote:
The reason the Albanians have not believed in the numbers is because they are delusional. They gain rights bases on percentages in the country.*
I agree its wrong for your rights as an Albanian differ depending on which part of the country you live.. and how much you are...
Hence the language law will make all Albanians equal when it comes language rights regardless of numbers and where they live.. problem solved..

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The only time anything was faked in the country was the 2002 census where Albanians from in Oslomej, Zajas, Struga that live in the diaspora were added to their total for the census to artificially increase their number to over 25% under the ohrid framework agreement.
Any proof that at the time (2002) that the numbers were inflated in those regions.. and how much effect it had on the overall total?

Also how many Albanians who were born or parents were born in Macedonia live or work outside Macedonia??
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Old 06-19-2018, 12:20 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Albo View Post
Also just a side note on your student numbers and the percentages
The 55% of students that Study in Macedonian aren't all ethnic Macedonian..
Eg. Most Roma, Turks Serbs and others study in Macedonian..
Also many Albanians from Skopje and other regions where Albanians are a minority eg Bitola, Resen, Ohrid, Prilep,Krushevo Veles ect.. are educated in Macedonian.. simply because there aren't any or quality Albanian language schools in those regions..or parents choose to send them to Macedonian schools..


The number of students are broken down by ethnicity and language. So no Macedonian/Roma/Turks/Serbs are all broken down based on their own ethnicity and not all lumped into the "Macedonian" group. Its right here in this publication and graph. They have been publishing these findings for many years.

http://www.stat.gov.mk/Publikacii/2.4.18.05.pdf




Quote:
Originally Posted by Albo View Post
I agree its wrong for your rights as an Albanian differ depending on which part of the country you live.. and how much you are...
Hence the language law will make all Albanians equal when it comes language rights regardless of numbers and where they live.. problem solved..
The Albanians signed the Ohrid Framework agreement which guaranteed them these rights based on the number of them living in each municipality. If they weren't happy with the agreement then they should have never signed it. Don't complain about it after the fact. Irrespective, Albanians are emigrating from Macedonia en masse. So the more than emigrate the better it will be for the country.

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Originally Posted by Albo View Post
Any proof that at the time (2002) that the numbers were inflated in those regions.. and how much effect it had on the overall total?

Also how many Albanians who were born or parents were born in Macedonia live or work outside Macedonia??
This is based on voting patterns in Kichevo elections and births in both Oslomej and Zajas (for example). Zajas and Oslomej are both high emigration areas for Albanians and the number of births in those two municipalities are not proportional to the inflated number of people in the 2002 census.

Also in order to vote an Albanian mayor into Kicevo many expats who reside in other countries have to travel back to Macedonia to vote. These Albanians have officially emigrated but are still on the voter rolls and counted as Citizens.
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Old 06-19-2018, 03:01 PM   #14
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The Albanians signed the Ohrid Framework agreement which guaranteed them these rights based on the number of them living in each municipality. If they weren't happy with the agreement then they should have never signed it
At the time it was a big step forward and nobody knew how the new laws were going to effect the people and the country..
After 17 years the positives and negatives of the agreement are better known.. The OFA isn't gospel.. it was a guide to peace and integration..

If Albanian rights were standardised across the country there would be no reason to want to inflate or deflate numbers..

Quote:
Albanians are emigrating from Macedonia en masse. So the more than emigrate the better it will be for the country
Oh yes its amazing for the country... �� what a way to create more loyal Albanian citizens by celebrating their migration..

Albanians who migrate.. never fully migrate unless they go to places like Canada, USA or Australia..the Albanians in Europe are the majority.. they are more seasonal workers or even when citizens of a second country still return to MK more often then Macedonians who migrate.. and also they spend most of the money they make abroad in Macedonia by either supporting the family or building a new home or buying an apartment .. Albanians also almost never sell family property , it's seen as scared.. regardless of how poor or rich you are or where you migrate to.. So I wouldn't get too happy with Albanian migration.. they never really fully leave..

Quote:
This is based on voting patterns in Kichevo elections and births in both Oslomej and Zajas (for example). Zajas and Oslomej are both high emigration areas for Albanians and the number of births in those two municipalities are not proportional to the inflated number of people in the 2002 census.*
I'm not saying your wrong because I don't know too much about the Kicevo region.. do you have the voting numbers of Zajas and Osllomej prior to 2002 so we can confirm this?

I have driven through Kicevo, Zajas and Osllomej.. they are very built up densely populated regions.. but Also I know historically there has been a lot od migration from that region in the past..

Quote:
Also in order to vote an Albanian mayor into Kicevo many expats who reside in other countries have to travel back to Macedonia to vote. These Albanians have officially emigrated but are still on the voter rolls and counted as Citizens.
They are still citizens who pay taxes in MK (eg) (property Tax) .. and regularly stay in MK..they aren't breaking any laws by coming to Kicevo and voting are they? They contribute millions to the economy and keep the region alive..

Nobody is stopping the Macedonians from coming to vote also! But they don't care enough or live too far away..
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Old 06-21-2018, 12:55 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Albo View Post
At the time it was a big step forward and nobody knew how the new laws were going to effect the people and the country..
After 17 years the positives and negatives of the agreement are better known.. The OFA isn't gospel.. it was a guide to peace and integration..

If Albanian rights were standardised across the country there would be no reason to want to inflate or deflate numbers..
Countries which are composed of two different sets of people rarely survive. I'm just a realist. The more Albanians who leave the better Macedonia will be for the Macedonians.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Albo View Post
Oh yes its amazing for the country... �� what a way to create more loyal Albanian citizens by celebrating their migration..

Albanians who migrate.. never fully migrate unless they go to places like Canada, USA or Australia..the Albanians in Europe are the majority.. they are more seasonal workers or even when citizens of a second country still return to MK more often then Macedonians who migrate.. and also they spend most of the money they make abroad in Macedonia by either supporting the family or building a new home or buying an apartment .. Albanians also almost never sell family property , it's seen as scared.. regardless of how poor or rich you are or where you migrate to.. So I wouldn't get too happy with Albanian migration.. they never really fully leave..
Yea we have heard this story before buddy. No one cares. If Albanians live outside of the country for 10 months out of the year and visit only in the summer they aren't really a part of society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albo View Post
I'm not saying your wrong because I don't know too much about the Kicevo region.. do you have the voting numbers of Zajas and Osllomej prior to 2002 so we can confirm this?

I have driven through Kicevo, Zajas and Osllomej.. they are very built up densely populated regions.. but Also I know historically there has been a lot od migration from that region in the past..

They are still citizens who pay taxes in MK (eg) (property Tax) .. and regularly stay in MK..they aren't breaking any laws by coming to Kicevo and voting are they? They contribute millions to the economy and keep the region alive..

Nobody is stopping the Macedonians from coming to vote also! But they don't care enough or live too far away..
I take this as a big compliment. You are just subjectively asking me to prove it to you since you know I'm knowledgeable about the demographics. Deep down inside you know Im right you just dont want to believe it.


Let me ask you this, why is voter turn out so low in Albanian municipalities VS the Macedonian ones? Most Macedonian dominated municipalities have voter turn out from 65-80% where as Albanian voter turn out is from 40%-55%. Any idea?

https://rezultati.sec.mk/Local/Resul...k-MK&r=r&rd=r1

Click the map and see for yourself. Check Saraj, Zhelino, Aracinovo, Lipkovo, Debar etc. Its because they are still registered to vote but do not live in the country. So voter turn out is low as the Albanians are counted as residing in the country. If the next census is completed properly the voter rolls will be cleaned up and the real number of citizens will be counted. (Unless SDSM who falsified the last census is still in power).


Second, lets use births to see how 2002 census was inflated.

We will use Oslemej and Zajas as an example.

Here is the Makstat Database, you can check births for every year for each municipality

http://makstat.stat.gov.mk/PXWeb/pxw...9-cb4e5f7ec5ef


So we can search the number of births for pure ethnic Albanian municipalities and see the proportion of births they have and compare to Zajas and Oslomej



So the municipalities of Oslomej and Zajas -the births are so low in proportion to the other municipalities. How does around 21560 population only have 139 combined births in 2005? Look at the other municipalities. The proportion of Albanian births is way higher. If the Albanians in Oslomej and Zajas realy had 21560 residents then the number of births should have been around 325-350 Births.

So for an Albanian population to have around 139 births the population of Oslomej and Zajas is no larger than 9000 people. So in effect they added more than double to the population in the fake 2002 census.
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:00 AM   #16
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What is the process for voting in Macedonia? In Australia I don't need to prove who I am. I just get my name crossed off a list when I enter the polling area.

What I'm wondering is whether anyone else is voting on behalf of Albanians who don't even live there.
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:04 AM   #17
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What is the process for voting in Macedonia? In Australia I don't need to prove who I am. I just get my name crossed off a list when I enter the polling area.

What I'm wondering is whether anyone else is voting on behalf of Albanians who don't even live there.
I believe its more rigorous in Macedonia.

Anyway here is a great article. How Albanians had to fly back to Macedonia in 2013 to vote in an Albanian mayor in Kicevo.

http://www.etd.ceu.hu/2013/agich_erlin.pdf

They would never have had enough votes without the diaspora coming back and voting. No not seasonal workers - people who officially emigrated from Macedonia and do not live there.
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Old 06-21-2018, 02:12 AM   #18
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Astounding and illuminating. Thanks mklion.
How on Earth can anyone have the right to dictate what should happen in Macedonia (particularly as it relates to its minorities) without a REAL census is utterly astounding to me.
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Old 08-17-2018, 07:35 AM   #19
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Demographic collapse in Albania

https://denesen.mk/panika-bujar-nish...milion-ziteli/

https://time.mk/c/e9dbc8a77f/panika-...on-ziteli.html

Бујар Нишани: До 2030 Албанија ќе падне под 1 милион жители

Според Нишани, Албанците се иселуваат на дневна основа заради несигурност страв, непријателска средина и целосен недостиг од функционирање на државните институции.

- Албанија го губи своето население! До 2030 ќе бидеме помалку од 1 милиони! Ако не ја запреме оваа ѓаволска спирала во 2040 ќе бидеме веројатно само неколку стотина илјади, изјави Нишани.

Тој додае дека тенденцијата да се напушта земјата е уште повеќе очајна затоа што таа не е одраз само на неврабоеноста, кај посиромашното население, во селските средини, туку исто така и кај групите кои успеале со многу напори да достигнат среден економски стандард и нормален живот.

Инаку, Албанија се соочува и со проблемот на намлен број новороденчиња. Албанскиот Институтот за статистика ИНСТАТ соопшти дека во второто тромесечие регистрирани се 5.592 новороденчиња. Од вкупниот број најмногу од нив се родени во Тирана или 1.851 бебе, каде споредено со второто тромесечие лани бројот на новородените е помал за 22,2 отсто.

Според пописот спроведен во октомври 2011 година Албанија има 2.891.977 жители. Од вкупната попишана популација, со постојано место на живеење во Албанија се 1.421.810 жители, додека другите се со престој во странство до една година. Споредено со податоците од пописот во 2001 година бројот на вкупната популација е помал за 7,7 отсто, како резултат на емиграцијата и намалениот наталитет.
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Old 11-16-2018, 11:32 AM   #20
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Census without questions about ethnic and religious affiliation

The census, scheduled to begin on April 1 2020, will not include questions about ethnic and religious affiliation, but will contain two questions related to language: what is your mother tongue and what language is spoken in the household. Director of the Statistical Office Apostol Simovski says that the data on belonging do not have any usable value and are always the basis for politicizing the entire census.

- There was never a census that was not a target of politicization, and the ethnic component is politicized the most. Therefore, we are ready to give up some aspect, but we will not allow politicization. Let me remind you, this is a statistical operation. According to our Constitution, the rights of a certain group of citizens derive from the language they speak, not from ethnicity, says Apostol Simovski, Director of the Statistical Office.

And the international census expert, Werner Haug, points out that in many European countries there is no question about ethnic or religious affiliation.


URL:
https://telma.com.mk/popis-bez-prash...ka-pripadnost/

Попис без прашања за етничка и верска припадност

Пописот што треба да почне на 1 април 2020-та, нема да содржи прашања за етничката и религиозната припадност, но ќе содржи две прашања поврзани со јазикот: кој е вашиот мајчин јазик и кој јазик се говори во домаќинството. Директорот на Државниот закон за статистика Апостол Симовски вели дека податоците за припадноста немаат никаква употребна вредност а секогаш се подлога за политизација на целиот попис.

-Немало попис што не бил цел на политизација, а најмногу се политизира етничката компонента. Затоа сме подготвени да се откажеме од некој аспект, но политизација нема да дозволиме. Да потсетам, ова е статистичка операција. Според нашиот Устав, правата на одредена група граѓани произлегуваат од јазикот што го говорат, а не од етничката припадност, вели Апостол Симовски, Директор на Заводот за статистика.

И меѓународниот експерт за пописи, Вернер Хауг, посочува дека во голем број европски земји нема прашање за етничка или за верска припадност.

-Ваквите прашања често предизвикуваат тешкотии при изборот на одговорот. Некои граѓани не сакаат да се врзуваат со ниту една етничка група. Некои се деца од мешани бракови. Мигрантите и иселениците се интегрираат во други општества. Затоа, тие прашања може да се постават на доброволна основа, а употребата на јазикот дава повеќе информации неопходни за планирање на образованието или на вработувањето, смета Вернер Хауг, меѓународен експерт за пописи.

Пописот ќе се спроведува три недели по нова комбинирана метода: со анкета лице в лице што ќе ја спроведуваат 5 илјади добро обучени попишувачи и со користење на базите на податоци на 12 институции. Основа ќе биде Регистерот на население и државјанствата. Ќе се попишуваат граѓаните што живеат во земјата, оние што се до една година надвор од неа и странците што живеат тука над една година. Се ќе биде електронски и максимално обезбедено, ветува Симовски, а пробниот попис ќе се спроведе в година во 8 општини. Целата операција треба да чини 8 ипол милиони евра, што е далеку помалку од 14-те милиони за пропаднатиот попис во 2011. Конечните решенија ќе ги содржи Законот за попис што Владата треба да го донесе до крајот на годината, а Собранието до февруари наредната.
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