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Old 05-22-2017, 08:06 AM   #21
Soldier of Macedon
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My point on the lack of care was simply in reference to religious structures as actual places of worship. The idea of Christianity becoming a minority in Macedonia only concerns me due to the Macedonian Orthodox church being the only religious denomition that actually protects Macedonians.
Christianity has been present in Macedonia for 2,000 years and is embedded in Macedonian culture. It is a core component of our culture. Churches and monasteries are representations of our culture. Mosques and minarets are not. They are accepted due to historical legacy and for the benefit of minorities. The advancement of such structures should never be accepted when it has the potential to diminish the culture of the titular nation. In Macedonia, all citizens should be afforded the same legal and human rights, but it is the only 'free' (and I use that term loosely) country which all Macedonians can call their own. It must preserve and give precedence to Macedonian culture if it is to maintain its Macedonian character. No other self-respecting nation would accept anything less. Nor should we.
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If there were an Islamic Macedonian service that served the same purpose then it would be of no concern to me which religion was dominant.
You're speaking of an unrealistic hypothetical which exists neither in historical nor in contemporary Macedonia. Like I said before, Christianity is a significant part of Macedonian culture. It's worth taking the time to read up on it. Whether you're religious or not is irrelevant.
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Old 05-22-2017, 08:29 AM   #22
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Christianity has been present in Macedonia for over 2,000 years and is embedded in Macedonian culture. It is a core component of our culture. Churches and monasteries are representations of our culture. Mosques and minarets are not. They are accepted due to historical legacy and for the benefit of minorities. The advancement of such structures should never be accepted when it has the potential to diminish the culture of the titular nation. In Macedonia, all citizens should be afforded the same legal and human rights, but it is the only 'free' (and I use that term loosely) country which all Macedonians can call their own. It must preserve and give precedence to Macedonian culture if it is to maintain its Macedonian character. No other self-respecting nation would accept anything less. Nor should we.

Again, have to disagree that is a core compenent of our culture, to me and many many other Macedonians it is not a compenent at all. To say Mosques and minarets are not representative of Macedonians is quite ignorant considering the thousands of Muslims that see themselves as Macedonians and speak Macedonian, it is wrong to discriminate against them because they belong to a minorty religion within the Macedonian nation.
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Old 05-22-2017, 08:36 AM   #23
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As I said before, Muslim Macedonians are facing assimilative processes from the Albanians which have lead to many of them declaring themselves to be Albanian. The leaders of the Islamic community of Macedonians have repeatedly asked for support from consecutive Macedonian governments to prevent the spread of Albanian assimilation tactics amongst the Muslim Macedonians but they have received little support from the Christo-centric DPMNE. This is a stupid move in my opinion as the DPMNE is meant to be a Nationalist party, yet it makes no sense to alienate proud ethnic Macedonians because of their religion.
I agree with that. But many Macedonian Muslims willingly choose to side with their coreligionists. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact. Those types feel more affinity for their religion than for their ethnic background. On a side note, the Macedonian Muslims in western Macedonia are relatively late converts when compared to Bosniaks and Albanians.
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........VMRO were secular in their thinking and saw the need for Macedonians to come together irregardless of their religion.
That's correct. But how many Macedonian Muslims can you name that heeded the call of VMRO and formed their own revolutionary bands to liberate Macedonia from the Ottoman yoke?
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Old 05-22-2017, 08:58 AM   #24
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I agree with that. But many Macedonian Muslims willingly choose to side with their coreligionists. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact. Those types feel more affinity for their religion than for their ethnic background. On a side note, the Macedonian Muslims in western Macedonia are relatively late converts when compared to Bosniaks and Albanians.
I have no information on Muslim Macedonians willingly being assimilated and so can't really comment. Greater support for them by the government would help in keeping their identity strong.


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That's correct. But how many Macedonian Muslims can you name that heeded the call of VMRO and formed their own revolutionary bands to liberate Macedonia from the Ottoman yoke?
Couldn't give you any names. I am aware of non-Macedonians such as Pitu Guli contributing to the cause but I do not know any other non Christian Macedonian by name.
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Old 05-22-2017, 09:03 AM   #25
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Again, have to disagree that is a core compenent of our culture, to me and many many other Macedonians it is not a compenent at all.
You can disagree as much as you like, but that merely serves to demonstrate your ignorance. And that's fine for now, you're new here, you've made a number of inquiries about our history, and I think that's great. But perhaps you should take the time to learn a little more before taking a firm position on issues such as this. The effects of Christianity in Macedonian culture are not just overt (for that there are many obvious examples), it goes much deeper, so much so that many (if not most) of our customs which people like yourself may take for granted have a Christian element to them.
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To say Mosques and minarets are not representative of Macedonians is quite ignorant considering the thousands of Muslims that see themselves as Macedonians and speak Macedonian, it is wrong to discriminate against them because they belong to a minorty religion within the Macedonian nation.
I am not discriminating against them. They themselves know that they have only been Muslims for a couple of centuries at the most. They also know that they are a tiny religious minority of the Macedonian ethnic group. Do you really think they don't know that Islam as a religion pales in significance compared to Christianity where it concerns Macedonian culture in general?
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Old 05-22-2017, 09:08 AM   #26
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Couldn't give you any names.
From the top of my head, I couldn't give you any names either. And I would chance to say that I have researched Macedonian history for much longer than you have. That alone says something about the allegiances of at least some Macedonian Muslims from the Ottoman period, don't you think?
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Old 05-22-2017, 10:20 AM   #27
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I kind of get where Liberator is coming from although, I think his view point is not yet fully formed and informed.

I actually agree that a big fault in Macedonian thinking then and now, was the out casting of those who weren't Macedonian enough. I mean just look at how the transcendence of religion and regional differences have benefited the Albanian ethnicity. On the other hand look at Macedonians, you have Torbeshi, Vlasi, Ejgejci (also called Grci), Pirici (also called Bugari), Srbmonai, Bugarofili, Grkomani, etc. We tend to push each other away, and this weakens our ability to form a strong ethnicity.

Now here is where I think the viewpoint is not developed enough. You can bring everyone into the fold as Macedonians, but you can't ignore the fact that all these Macedonian groups share a common culture that is in many cases directly tied to our predominantly Orthodox faith. Even Muslim Macedonians celebrate holidays and follow customs that come from our historical Orthodox faith, not their practicing Muslim faith.

Now as it relates to these Turkish and Saudi funded mega Mosques, not only in Macedonia but all over the Balkans, you have to see through the fact that it is a religious structure, that is part of the con. Like I said, do you think you could get building permits for a 32 meter high home, business, etc, that would blast noise through a loud speaker at some unholy hour for everyone in the area to listen to.

It is the right of any citizenry to accept or reject what they want i their neighborhood. In my town that I live in, the residents voted that there can be no liquor stores or bars. If the citizens of Ohrid or any other town, don't want a mega mosque, then that is their right. If we are a tolerant and good people, we will make a fair compromise. For example, the mosque is already there, and yes some of the residents use it for worship. So a fair compromise would be that you can renovate it, no larger than its original size, and the minarets can be a maximum height determined by local zoning codes, and you can not broadcast your prayer over loudspeakers, the same way that I can't broadcast what I want over a loud speaker.
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Old 05-22-2017, 05:16 PM   #28
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Why is there a mosque in Ohrid? Who built it? How old is it?
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Old 05-22-2017, 06:12 PM   #29
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If it wasn't for the Church we'd be like the bloody Bosnians.

Through ottoman periods the church kept our identity, our strength and core values.

The church's influence has been on the decline Post WWII in socialist and Liberal Macedonia. What the Turks couldn't do in 550 years, we will do ourselves in 70 years.

PS whilst I am respectful of Muslims, I personally don't view them as Macedonian.

Sorry fellas, I love the church and i simply can not separate it from Macedonianism
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Old 05-22-2017, 07:57 PM   #30
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Again, have to disagree that is a core compenent of our culture, to me and many many other Macedonians it is not a compenent at all. To say Mosques and minarets are not representative of Macedonians is quite ignorant considering the thousands of Muslims that see themselves as Macedonians and speak Macedonian, it is wrong to discriminate against them because they belong to a minorty religion within the Macedonian nation.
This kind of renovation is nothing less than a declaration of war. It seeks to erode the Macedonian identity and over-represents the needs of an almost insignificant minority.

Your reason for suggesting the minarets are pointless seem to be based on some kind of economic rationality instead of based upon an insidious attack to the Macedonian identity (which is EXTREMELY abundant) in Ohrid.

I agree the definition of a Macedonian can extend easily to people who are not Orthodox. A former leader was Methodist. In Macedonia, being Muslim is extremely close to a declaration of NOT being Macedonian. I think they should be regarded as Macedonians but they mostly do not. You are possibly confusing your hopes with reality.

I hope this is quashed and could not think of anything worse than that declaration of war against Macedonians spewed out on loudspeakers at intervals.
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