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Old 03-21-2018, 06:15 PM   #91
Albo
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The problem with the whole Albanian platform in the country is that they believe they deserve things not because they are citizens of a country but because they are a certain ethnicit
No not correct.. what dictates our politial demands are the votes that the parties receive from the platforms that the parties take to the citizens.. these are demands of a portion if the citizens .. and in a functioning democracy where forming a government is based on the 'will of the people' and throughout the world different people have different demands and needs which should be respected.

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This mentality holds 25% of the country back in needless rules regulations laws that do nothing to further a progressive society.
Expanding ones cultural and linguistic rights I would have thought IS very progressive for the society of a country!
Refusing and hindering it is the contrary..

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Albo, please tell me one thing that Albanians have done to benefit the country? Anything ? A law they spearheaded or introduced into parliament that had nothing to do with being Albanian? Maybe an economic platform? Business laws? Boosting investments ?*
I would say that every single law that has been passed since independence has been passed by the ruling majority party with its Albanian junior partner by its side... drafting laws are done by ruling coalition.. Albanians have mostly always been part of the ruling majority..

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Albo don't you think that it would be more logical for zbogar to be concerned with the rights of the ethnic Russians in the Baltics where they currently have no cultural or language rights?
I'm not aware of how much assistance they have asked of the EU nor the relationship that Russian minoriry parties have with EU institutions now or in the past..

I have nothing against Russians in Baltic countries having maximum rights..

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You can throw in EUs fascist proxy Ukraine too. The rights of Albanians in FYROM exceeds the rights of the above groups by %100.

Odd? Logical? Nay yay?
Yes they do exceed the rights recived by many minorities in many countries.. this should be something Macedonia should be proud of..

What is unfortunate is what Albanians have had to go through and sacrifice in order to receive those rights .. many have been decades in the making and weren't simply handed over on a silver platter by Macedonian authorities.

Albanian higher education, use of symbols language ect..
Were all refused (and still are regreted) by most Macedonians.. and now people come out and say "look at all these rights Albanians have" as if they were handed over by the majority without refusal and reflection..

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Albo gets quiet every time we remind him the Macedonians are in no way advantaged over the ethnic Albanian minority when it comes to living standards. If he annoys you, just remind him and he will go away for a while. He will come back when he can think of another conspiracy theory.
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That's what he fails to realize. People are poor because the country is poor and not due to some state wide discrimination that targets only Albanians.

Statistically Albanians inhabited municipalities are poorer than Macedonian Municipalities... unemployment rates in Albanian regions are some of the highest in Europe!

Most of the income in Albania majority regions comes from Diaspora contributions due to minimal opertunities in western Macedonia

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Here is an example. Why don't the Albanians in parliament have a "pro ecomonic prosperity" agenda instead of a "let's albanize Macedonia " agenda ?
Albanians have had many economic demands eg, better roads liking regions, transport links, new border crossings economic free zones in Albanian inhabited municipalities .. guess what...
All fall on deaf ears... past governments (especially vmro) refused or severely delayed the funding and implementation of economic pjojects in Albanian areas.. this has been documented and discussed here in the past...

Sdsm has at least small steps in improving the situation.. but so far its all been mostly lip service.. time will tell..
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Old 03-21-2018, 06:42 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Albo View Post
No not correct.. what dictates our politial demands are the votes that the parties receive from the platforms that the parties take to the citizens.. these are demands of a portion if the citizens .. and in a functioning democracy where forming a government is based on the 'will of the people' and throughout the world different people have different demands and needs which should be respected.

Expanding ones cultural and linguistic rights I would have thought IS very progressive for the society of a country!
Refusing and hindering it is the contrary..
Your political demands are entirely based on your ethnicity which is an extremely archaic way of thinking.

1. Language rights - we want Albanian on everything
2. Affirmative Action for Albanians - ie. Albanians get government jobs not based on merit but based on ethnicity. An uneducated Albanian who is as dumb as rocks can get a job they are not qualified for based on a numerical quota VS actually being able to do that job.
3. Albanian Only schools/language in schools - primary, secondary, universities in Albanian only with Albanian teachers
4. Using another states symbols on Macedonian government buildings - Albanian flag on all government buildings
5. Government decentralization for more rights on a local level -ie municipalities borders redrawn into non historical municipalities based only on ALBANIAN ETHNICITY AND NOT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF ALL CITIZENS

These are all rights given to you because you are ALBANIAN not because you are a "Macedonian State Citizen"

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Originally Posted by Albo View Post
I would say that every single law that has been passed since independence has been passed by the ruling majority party with its Albanian junior partner by its side... drafting laws are done by ruling coalition.. Albanians have mostly always been part of the ruling majority..

I'm not aware of how much assistance they have asked of the EU nor the relationship that Russian minoriry parties have with EU institutions now or in the past..

I have nothing against Russians in Baltic countries having maximum rights..

Yes they do exceed the rights recived by many minorities in many countries.. this should be something Macedonia should be proud of..

What is unfortunate is what Albanians have had to go through and sacrifice in order to receive those rights .. many have been decades in the making and weren't simply handed over on a silver platter by Macedonian authorities.

Albanian higher education, use of symbols language ect..
Were all refused (and still are regreted) by most Macedonians.. and now people come out and say "look at all these rights Albanians have" as if they were handed over by the majority without refusal and reflection..

Statistically Albanians inhabited municipalities are poorer than Macedonian Municipalities... unemployment rates in Albanian regions are some of the highest in Europe!

Most of the income in Albania majority regions comes from Diaspora contributions due to minimal opertunities in western Macedonia


Albanians have had many economic demands eg, better roads liking regions, transport links, new border crossings economic free zones in Albanian inhabited municipalities .. guess what...
All fall on deaf ears... past governments (especially vmro) refused or severely delayed the funding and implementation of economic pjojects in Albanian areas.. this has been documented and discussed here in the past...

Sdsm has at least small steps in improving the situation.. but so far its all been mostly lip service.. time will tell..
Why when an "Albanian Municipality" is poor is it the ruling Macedonian's party fault?

Albanian municipalities have MPs and Mayors and municipality decentralization have allowed Albanians to rule themselves in the municipalities in which they live in. So if there are shitty roads, schools, high unemployment why not tell Ahmeti, Tuta Arifi, Ziadin Sela and getthem fix it?

Or are you going to admit that the reason your areas are so poor is due to either the shitty ALBANIAN PEOPLE or the CORRUPT GOVERNMENT?

Well the way I look at it is Albanian people are hard working and make a good living when they emigrate. So then its probably your corrupt government officials right? Why not revolt against them?

Also when Gruevski won in 2014 he won a majority and didnt need an Albanian junior partner to govern but included them into the governing coalition anyway. Seems like the Macedonian MPs are not as bad after all?
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:59 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by mklion View Post
...Also when Gruevski won in 2014 he won a majority and didnt need an Albanian junior partner to govern but included them into the governing coalition anyway. Seems like the Macedonian MPs are not as bad after all?
...and another thing, post 2001 there's been a political convention that the winning Macedonian political party invites a shiptar coalition partner to form government...once again you have an example of a relatively insignificant and useless minority that enjoys a disproportionate level of political power over every other minority group in Macedonia and the Macedonian majority itself.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:23 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by mklion View Post
Also when Gruevski won in 2014 he won a majority and didnt need an Albanian junior partner to govern but included them into the governing coalition anyway. Seems like the Macedonian MPs are not as bad after all?
I am not sure I ever quite realised this. What a pathetic country.
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Old 03-22-2018, 05:06 AM   #95
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That is part of the unfortunate Ohrid Framework Agreement, where essentially (and I am simplifying) an Albanian party must be in Government.
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Old 03-22-2018, 05:52 AM   #96
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That is part of the unfortunate Ohrid Framework Agreement, where essentially (and I am simplifying) an Albanian party must be in Government.
I could not find any reference to this in the oher agreement. Also not sure if anyone has noticed, certain persons in FYROM are trying to massage the law on languages as a part of the original OA. I could not find any such references.

The link for OA is below..

http://www.ucd.ie/ibis/filestore/Ohr...0Agreement.pdf

In my opinion what was agreed with war should only be altered with war.. these sneaky buggers..
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:18 AM   #97
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You're right actually, the Badinter principle only applies in certain cases for certain laws, but doesn't require the winning party of the minority to be in Government.
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:35 AM   #98
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Parliamentary procedural rules...

Article 153
Each amendment shall be examined and voted separately.
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Old 03-22-2018, 01:23 PM   #99
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Parliamentary procedural rules...

Article 153
Each amendment shall be examined and voted separately.
I think you should avoid using this argument.
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Old 03-22-2018, 04:15 PM   #100
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Why? It argues that parliamentary rules were ignored and bypassed for the Albanian Language Law.

The other side argue that the President is obliged to sign it, but the argument of them being obliged to follow due process in the introduction and reading of the Draft Law isnt being made as strongly.
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