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Old 02-03-2019, 06:45 AM   #21
vicsinad
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Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
Its tricky because you have to be a realist sometimes. You don't just build a political party from scratch, certainly not in a place like Macedonia where the people do not have that activist grassroots type of mentality.

Sometimes I try to put myself in the position of some of these people and ask what would I do. Sometimes you have to speak to people the way that they want to be spoken to. Sometimes you have to talk out of both sides of your mouth. Sometimes you have to compromise. This is all part of the art of politics. If everyone always agreed on everything and all we had to do is shake hands and move on, then politics and governments wouldn't be needed.

If I were in Petreovski's shoes, I would try and take over the party apparatus. Once in charge I would begin to reshape it and dismantle the corrupt aspects of it. I see the struggle of Levica for example, trying to gain recognition, and grow as a party. The problem is DPNE has deep roots, and getting rid of all the bad elements might much more difficult than it seems.

The real solution is to start from a clean slate, in order to do that you need the people. You need people to volunteer, self organize, and be persistent until the job is done.
Good points, Gocka. For how long have third parties in the US been trying to gain legitimacy in voters' eye -- whether its the Libertarians or the Greens. When the a couple of parties are deeply embedded in the fabric of government and politics, you need a massive amount of people to overcome that. Or, you need to be rich or famous or have some sort of reputable standing in the community to get the votes (I'm thinking Jesse Ventura in Minnesota getting elected to governor as 3rd party candidate). That usually doesn't guarantee the party any success -- once that individual is out of politics, it's back to the two parties.

It's not easy.
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Old 02-03-2019, 08:28 AM   #22
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Good points, Gocka. For how long have third parties in the US been trying to gain legitimacy in voters' eye -- whether its the Libertarians or the Greens. When the a couple of parties are deeply embedded in the fabric of government and politics, you need a massive amount of people to overcome that. Or, you need to be rich or famous or have some sort of reputable standing in the community to get the votes (I'm thinking Jesse Ventura in Minnesota getting elected to governor as 3rd party candidate). That usually doesn't guarantee the party any success -- once that individual is out of politics, it's back to the two parties.

It's not easy.
It is certainly not a problem restricted to Macedonia and the USA alone...the two party system is the dominant feature of most democracies around the world...and then on top of that (as you've touched on) you have the emergence of (the rich/powerful/famous) political dynasties that further dilute political diversity...the Adams'...Roosevelt's...Kennedy's...Bush's...Clinto n's (still trying to make their mark - ) Trudeau's...Nehru–Gandhi's...Papandreou's...Karama nlis'...

Last edited by Phoenix; 02-03-2019 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 02-03-2019, 10:49 AM   #23
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Good points, Gocka. For how long have third parties in the US been trying to gain legitimacy in voters' eye -- whether its the Libertarians or the Greens. When the a couple of parties are deeply embedded in the fabric of government and politics, you need a massive amount of people to overcome that. Or, you need to be rich or famous or have some sort of reputable standing in the community to get the votes (I'm thinking Jesse Ventura in Minnesota getting elected to governor as 3rd party candidate). That usually doesn't guarantee the party any success -- once that individual is out of politics, it's back to the two parties.

It's not easy.
Like Phoenix said, the two party system dominates almost everywhere. The real test of a democracy though is whether you can actually affect those party structures and agendas when needed. In the USA the parties have gone through many major shifts over time. Look at the dramatic effect the tea party had on the Republicans, now look at Trump's effect. Look at how people like Bernie and Warren have pushed the Democrats further left. This is part of the ebb and flow of the system in the US.

In the US those shifts came about through shear will from the people. Massive amounts of people got behind these figures and movements and caused real change. The change isn't instant, but you can clearly see its progression.

In Macedonia its the opposite. The people wait for a political leader to set the agenda and they just follow along. Even when someone does come along, and there have been people who have tried, the people expect things to just happen without their participation. Where in the USA people will organize rallies and donate to campaigns, knock on doors to raise awareness, Macedonians just wait around for this magical figure to right all wrongs.

Macedonians don't understand democracy, mainly that it requires participation in many more ways than just voting in a few years. Especially when there is corruption and entrenched political parties. There is no self healing mechanism for the government, the only means of healing has to come through the will and actions of the people.
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Old 02-03-2019, 02:17 PM   #24
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has anyone heard of George atanasoski? he's a Macedonian who has a successful business in Florida USA, I don't think he's associated with any party but he seems like an interesting candidate.
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Old 02-05-2019, 10:44 PM   #25
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There's an increasing voice in Macedonia advocating for a boycott of the Presidential election. The strongest argument of which I have seen is the one saying electing a President of North Macedonia legitimises the name change. The counter is that Talat Xaferi will then assume the role for 6 months if no President is elected.

No matter how you play it, it's a no win situation.

It's time for the game to change, otherwise this looks like we're playing the game of the traitors and debating over the lesser evil.

If the word boycott can't shift to the word revolution, and given the passiveness of the nation it seems it can't, then at least the boycott voice should shift to an all out boycott of all institutions.

Boycott paying taxes to North Macedonia.
Boycott using ID that says North Macedonia.
Boycott the products and businesses of those involved in this treason.
Boycott going to the universities in North Macedonia.
Take your children out of schools in North Macedonia, refuse to let them learn from books written on the orders of a foreign nation (Greece).
Take your money out of the banks.
Pay cash only for all transactions, avoid all taxes.
Don't let any institution in North Macedonia see any money, any taxes from the people.

Force the Government into a situation where they have no revenue and no ability to borrow therefore no ability to pay the administration, the police, the MPs, etc.

It's easy enough, it doesn't affect peoples day to day life so the passive lazy nature of Macedonians plays well.

Don't boycott the Presidential elections, that wont achieve a win. Instead, boycott absolutely everything.
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Old 02-05-2019, 11:41 PM   #26
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Can citizens vote from abroad?

Avoiding to vote (or participate in general) normally results in one's voice not being counted and increases the power of others.
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Old 02-05-2019, 11:45 PM   #27
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Can citizens vote from abroad?

Avoiding to vote (or participate in general) normally results in one's voice not being counted and increases the power of others.
Maybe; I think in Australia there were polling stations open at the embassy, at least for the referendum.
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Old 02-05-2019, 11:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogi View Post
There's an increasing voice in Macedonia advocating for a boycott of the Presidential election. The strongest argument of which I have seen is the one saying electing a President of North Macedonia legitimises the name change. The counter is that Talat Xaferi will then assume the role for 6 months if no President is elected.

No matter how you play it, it's a no win situation.

It's time for the game to change, otherwise this looks like we're playing the game of the traitors and debating over the lesser evil.

If the word boycott can't shift to the word revolution, and given the passiveness of the nation it seems it can't, then at least the boycott voice should shift to an all out boycott of all institutions.

Boycott paying taxes to North Macedonia.
Boycott using ID that says North Macedonia.
Boycott the products and businesses of those involved in this treason.
Boycott going to the universities in North Macedonia.
Take your children out of schools in North Macedonia, refuse to let them learn from books written on the orders of a foreign nation (Greece).
Take your money out of the banks.
Pay cash only for all transactions, avoid all taxes.
Don't let any institution in North Macedonia see any money, any taxes from the people.

Force the Government into a situation where they have no revenue and no ability to borrow therefore no ability to pay the administration, the police, the MPs, etc.

It's easy enough, it doesn't affect peoples day to day life so the passive lazy nature of Macedonians plays well.

Don't boycott the Presidential elections, that wont achieve a win. Instead, boycott absolutely everything.
Interesting. I like it. Have you seen this seeded by some locals? They’ll need leaders to rise and shape such a movement.
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Old 02-05-2019, 11:50 PM   #29
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Another boycott would be the most idiotic thing in the history of man.

I'm still not convinced that the original boycott "movement" wasn't orchestrated behind the scenes by SDSM. Because they came and went in a flash, not faces no names, after the referendum the "movement" was gone. What a coincidence its popping up again when there is yet again an opportunity to FUCK things up.

If people want to boycott something, stop going to work, stop paying taxes, bring the country to a standstill.

Everyone must vote, and they must vote for someone who will use the full power of the presidency to stop Zaev. Someone who will LEAD a resistance.

If Macedonians fuck this up again it may be the last nail in the coffin.
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Old 02-06-2019, 12:11 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
If people want to boycott something, stop going to work, stop paying taxes, bring the country to a standstill.
They've already done this But they're doing it out of pure laziness, not opposition to RNMK. We really need to fit the words "Democratic" and "People's" into this name - that will make it more North Korean sounding...isn't that what we're going for here?
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