The savior no one is talking about

[vicsinad]

Moving the topic on, does anyone know who is seriiusly planning to run a campaign across all media in Macedonia to push for a boycott and how can we donate to it?

You can private message me or send LOMA an e-mail at [email protected]. I can update you on some things.

[Karposh]

Vic, the last thing I want is for this to become an ugly example of one-upmanship. That's not my intention and I'm more than happy to give you the last word on this matter. In addition, American bashing is not my intention here (although it may seem that way). I've said it before on this forum and I'll say it again - Unlike many, I don't hate Americans and most Americans I have met I have found to be genuinely very polite and respectful people. My beef is not with the general American populace but your US Government. Your compatriot, Gocka, goes on and on (...and on) with his slave mentality rhetoric as though everyone else in the world is a dumb and scared little slave to their slave masters while he alone feels he has broken those servile shackles and now enjoys some enlightened sense of American style liberty. What an absolute tool. Does he even realise how arrogant he sounds when he says these things? Lucky for him he now lives in the land of the free and home of the brave to make him feel so courageous and free. I am not a scared little slave, and I don't believe anyone else is on this forum, if we question the actions of a foreign government that we have good reason to suspect has been behaving unethically with regard to our ancestral homeland, Macedonia. It just so happens to be the US in this case.

You didn't see what those supplies were. Taylor didn't see what those supplies were. So, why are you and Taylor both so eager to take the word of Albanian terrorists?

For the sake of this argument, let's say the US did drop "vital humanitarian supplies", as they claimed, which even necessitated the use of a covering smoke screen(?!), what do you think might have been in those containers that was so "vital"? Medical supplies for all the injured on the ground? As far as I know, Shipkovica never came under attack at any stage of the conflict. Maybe it was food? Freshly made Big Macs and Coca Cola for all direct from Camp Bondsteel Maccas perhaps? Remember this was in the middle of summer and "every village has plenty of food stocks" as the Shiptar that Taylor interviewed rightly pointed out. So what else could it have been, if not medical supplies or food?...Just saying.

[vicsinad]

Vic, the last thing I want is for this to become an ugly example of one-upmanship. That's not my intention and I'm more than happy to give you the last word on this matter. In addition, American bashing is not my intention here (although it may seem that way). I've said it before on this forum and I'll say it again - Unlike many, I don't hate Americans and most Americans I have met I have found to be genuinely very polite and respectful people. My beef is not with the general American populace but your US Government. Your compatriot, Gocka, goes on and on (...and on) with his slave mentality rhetoric as though everyone else in the world is a dumb and scared little slave to their slave masters while he alone feels he has broken those servile shackles and now enjoys some enlightened sense of American style liberty. What an absolute tool. Does he even realise how arrogant he sounds when he says these things? Lucky for him he now lives in the land of the free and home of the brave to make him feel so courageous and free. I am not a scared little slave, and I don't believe anyone else is on this forum, if we question the actions of a foreign government that we have good reason to suspect has been behaving unethically with regard to our ancestral homeland, Macedonia. It just so happens to be the US in this case.

For the sake of this argument, let's say the US did drop "vital humanitarian supplies", as they claimed, which even necessitated the use of a covering smoke screen(?!), what do you think might have been in those containers that was so "vital"? Medical supplies for all the injured on the ground? As far as I know, Shipkovica never came under attack at any stage of the conflict. Maybe it was food? Freshly made Big Macs and Coca Cola for all direct from Camp Bondsteel Maccas perhaps? Remember this was in the middle of summer and "every village has plenty of food stocks" as the Shiptar that Taylor interviewed rightly pointed out. So what else could it have been, if not medical supplies or food?...Just saying.

Karposh, this is not about one upmanship. I'm concerned with the facts. Please don't take it that way. I'm sorry if it's coming across that way.

It's not true that every village had plenty of food stocks. Vratnica was cut off from the outside world for a month and ran out of food and medicine. They couldn't even access their fields to harvest the wheat and other crops.

And it's not true that Shipkovica never came under attack.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/macedonia/1328036/Rebels-fight-off-Macedonians-offensive.html

But rebels put up stiffer resistance at Lavce, a mile from the NLA headquarters at the village of Selce. Rebels and government troops occupied different parts of Lavce. Terrified residents in another front-line village, Sipkovica, watched as government armour mustered on the road below them. The village was shelled early in the day and several people were injured.

And here's a picture one Albanian from Shipkovica paints; almost opposite of that the Albanian terrorist interviewed by Taylor painted about the state of affairs. It seems as if the Albanians in Shipkovica were on the verge of being eliminated from existence! Who's lying One, both, all? There's another story of villagers huddled in basements, fearing for their lives.

One man from the village, Nayo Kadjra, who lives in London but returned last week to visit his family, said: "We think that if the government troops come here they will destroy the village, which is 100 per cent ethnic Albanian and has a reputation for political activism." He said most of the NLA fighters had gone to defend rebel positions in Lavce and Selce across the valley, leaving his village defenceless with women and children crowded into basements and fearful of what awaited them.

Government armour and troops mustered on the road about two miles below the village and were poised to move in, probably today. Mr Kadjra said: "People thought about escaping over the mountains to Kosovo, but there are too many elderly, sick and young. We have all decided to let God decide our fate, and if we must die, we will die together."

Let me guess: the US also dropped off this horse seen in the last picture on this site?

http://www.kosovo.net/kla2a.html

No, but all sarcasm aside, let's say the US made a few drops, and let's assume those drops included weapons. A big assumption. Please explain this:

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/aug/20/news/mn-36311

It is anything but. The trail, one of many, leads straight over the border south into Macedonia. For months, it has been a key arms smuggling route for ethnic Albanian rebels, who call themselves the National Liberation Army.

"They are moving vehicles, mules, horses, laden with arms," says Capt. Daxs Stadjuhar, a native of Lubbock, Texas, who commands a company of about 140 soldiers based in the Kosovo town of Vitina. They alternate weapons interception with standard peacekeeping activities in Kosovo, the separatist province of Serbia, Yugoslavia's main republic.

In the two months since the NATO-led troops known as KFOR made interdiction an integral part of their mission, they have hauled in a startling number of arms: more than 600 rifles, including 45 machine guns; 48,829 small-arms rounds; more than 1,000 antitank weapons; 2,438 antitank rounds; 658 mortar rounds; nearly 1,400 grenades and mines; and piles of support equipment such as uniforms, boots, medical supplies and flak jackets, according to a mid-August report.

KFOR soldiers have detained 484 people--and nabbed a couple of dozen horses and mules. In the Balkans, weapons smuggling still relies on old-fashioned animal couriers able to negotiate rocky mountain trails that would defeat even the most rugged jeep.

Don't you think a better plan for the US/NATO would've been to just not intercept anything, or intercept far less, and then there'd be no reason for a drop? Or, let's assume they did this secretive drop of weapons once or twice; what they obtained at the border with Kosovo was much, much more than they would've likely dropped.

[Pelagonija]

Vic for christ sakes using western government backed media as a source of documentary evidence is highly provocative and offensive. We still havent found the weapons of mass destruction champ. Oh sorry I forgot it was a mistake. You are better than that..

[Pelagonija]

It wasn't Russia that sent troops to Macedonia in the early 1990s to secure the Macedonian border and deter potential Serbian aggression toward Macedonia. It was the US who did so, after the CIA warned of an imminent Serbian military invasion of Macedonia was about to take place. Russia at the time was probably more than excited for Serbia's potential quest to capture Macedonia.

Vic this comment by you didn’t wash well with me when I initially read this, I had to revisit this one.

Where exactly in the relevant resolution does it mention that the USA specifically sent troops to the Macedonian Border? the Americans only came to the ‘border’ under the American flag once they occupied Kosovo? I would appreciate it if you could provide third party documentation if possible clearly supporting your claim. As far as what I’ve read, this was initiated by the UN under the UN flag and was a joint multi national effort, initially led under danish command. Which the Americans served under

http://unscr.com/en/resolutions/795

Sorry mate..

I’ll even use wiki as you are using fake western media.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_983

Oh Russia is a permanent UN member.. ? You mean they too approved the deployment to the Macedonian border???

[vicsinad]

Where exactly in the relevant resolution does it mention that the USA specifically sent troops to the Macedonian Border? the Americans only came to the ‘border’ under the American flag once they occupied Kosovo? I would appreciate it if you could provide third party documentation if possible clearly supporting your claim. As far as what I’ve read, this was initiated by the UN under the UN flag and was a joint multi national effort, initially led under danish command. Which the Americans served under

So I understand you correctly: are you suggesting that the US didn't send troops to Macedonia during the Yugoslav wars of the early 1990s, or are you saying that the US didn't send troops under the US flag during the Yugoslav wars of the early 1990s?

[Phoenix]

So I understand you correctly: are you suggesting that the US didn't send troops to Macedonia during the Yugoslav wars of the early 1990s, or are you saying that the US didn't send troops under the US flag during the Yugoslav wars of the early 1990s?

Why can't we just agree that the USA, as the sole superpower on the planet, the most technologically equipped fighting force in human history, who was more competent than any other world player to end shiptar terrorism against a sovereign state did FUCK ALL...instead they hampered the Macedonian security forces ability to defend themselves, with the sole purpose of crafting a US puppet state...

But don't mind me...continue your US arse kissing.

[vicsinad]

Why can't we just agree that the USA, as the sole superpower on the planet, the most technologically equipped fighting force in human history, who was more competent than any other world player to end shiptar terrorism against a sovereign state did FUCK ALL...instead they hampered the Macedonian security forces ability to defend themselves, with the sole purpose of crafting a US puppet state...

But don't mind me...continue your US arse kissing.

I agree that the US could have and should have done more to stop the Albanian terrorists. The US was essentially trying to support both sides at the same time (I use the word support loosely). There hasn't been a disagreement about that.

But some of the claims that people are making are ridiculous and not true; and if we're going to get to the bottom of the problems in Macedonia, we need to ensure we're operating with truths and facts and not presumptions that fit particular narratives.

[Phoenix]

I agree that the US could have and should have done more to stop the Albanian terrorists. The US was essentially trying to support both sides at the same time (I use the word support loosely). There hasn't been a disagreement about that.

But some of the claims that people are making are ridiculous and not true; and if we're going to get to the bottom of the problems in Macedonia, we need to ensure we're operating with truths and facts and not presumptions that fit particular narratives.

Vic, the US didn't stop the shiptar terrorists, they stopped the Macedonians from defending themselves.

Why on Earth would the US support both sides and if this is what you truly believe, why do you defend the US as much as you do...

[vicsinad]

Vic, the US didn't stop the shiptar terrorists, they stopped the Macedonians from defending themselves.

Why on Earth would the US support both sides and if this is what you truly believe, why do you defend the US as much as you do...

I'm not trying to defend the US. I've explained why I think the US was "supporting" both sides. But I'll leave this be.

[Gocka]

Nope not leaving it at that.

I'm not trying to defend the US. I've explained why I think the US was "supporting" both sides. But I'll leave this be.

Brother, that is a myth that Macedonians perpetuate to make themselves feel better about losing. There is no verifiable proof that Macedonian security forces were ever stopped or impeded, neither physically nor otherwise.

The sad reality is that the Macedonian government got caught with its pants down and didn't have a leg to stand on come negotiation time. They couldn't fight on without a long drawn out conflict and heavy losses. Once they decided not to fight they had 0 bargaining power. The OFA was not a western forced conspiracy to keep Macedonia down, it was the result of inept Macedonian leaders who backed themselves into a corner.

Also why would we expect the USA to help Macedonia? We constantly harp on about American interventionism, so why would we be upset if the USA did nothing to impeded the terrorists? Mind you they intercepted weapons shipments from them which is not nothing, but overall why would we expect their help?

Its not about defending the US, at all. Do you not see that its about not letting Macedonian politicians get away with murder. By perpetuating these lies, we give a free pass to the real culprits.

The Macedonian army is even more ill equipped today to deal with a similar threat than it was then. That is why you don't perpetuate lies, because it gets in the way of actually solving the real problems. If the same thing were to happen tomorrow, the same result would follow, because we have done nothing as a country to protect ourselves. So tomorrow, whose fault is it going to be, Macedonia or the USA?

If 900,000 Macedonians come out and vote for the referendum on the 30th, whose fault is it going to be? Let me guess, the USA because they may or may not have helped Zaev come to power? Will we ignore the fact that the entire Macedonian parliament, judiciary, opposition party, and the 900,000 Macedonian voters all acted on their own free will? 2001 was no different, you had failure after failure around the table in Macedonia, but we can't get off this ridiculous conspiracy that it was the USA.

How long are we going to absolve the Macedonian people and the Macedonian leadership from the responsibility of defending their own nation?

Vic, the US didn't stop the shiptar terrorists, they stopped the Macedonians from defending themselves.

Why on Earth would the US support both sides and if this is what you truly believe, why do you defend the US as much as you do...

[Gocka]

Why is it so hard for you people to believe that the same retards that were responsible for the Taiwan fiasco, are also the same inept retards that signed the interim accord, the OFA, etc?

Why? Does it make you feel better to believe it is always some elaborate American conspiracy against us?

The same way no one forced those idiots to choose Taiwan, the same goes for all their other idiotic decisions. Why is this so hard to piece together?

Have any of you bothered to hear our leaders speak? Do they look and sound like the kind of people who were smart enough or brave enough to do the right things? We have ample proof of the same leaders being involved in various corruption and graft, yet when it comes to 2001, you believe that these same people were devout Macedonian patriots, and barring the American intervention, everything would have went perfectly for Macedonia?

Stop deluding yourselves. The same people who let 2001 happen, are the same people who would have sold their grandmothers if it made sense in their tiny little minds.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pelagonija]

So I understand you correctly: are you suggesting that the US didn't send troops to Macedonia during the Yugoslav wars of the early 1990s, or are you saying that the US didn't send troops under the US flag during the Yugoslav wars of the early 1990s?

Wrong! I’m saying that you purposely promoted US involvement in Macedonia based on distortion of the facts in order to further your argument. The facts are:

US soldiers served under the UN banner. A resolution that was inititiated and executed by the UN, Russia as a permanent member also approved the deployment.

Btw Here is America at it again today, accidentally calling Macedonian by its new name:

https://fokus.mk/vojskata-na-sad-ne-nareche-severnomakedontsi-pa-se-izvini/

[vicsinad]

Wrong! I’m saying that you purposely promoted US involvement in Macedonia based on distortion of the facts in order to further your argument. The facts are:

US soldiers served under the UN banner. A resolution that was inititiated and executed by the UN, Russia as a permanent member also approved the deployment.

Don't forget about the fact that the CIA (a US agency, by the way)warned of an imminent Serbian threat of invasion into Macedonia.

It was the US and its intelligence findings that helped convinced the UN of the need for troops to get into Macedonia.

I didn't distort any facts: US troops were in Macedonia protecting against Serbian aggression.

[Risto the Great]

Don't forget about the fact that the CIA (a US agency, by the way)warned of an imminent Serbian threat of invasion into Macedonia.

It was the US and its intelligence findings that helped convinced the UN of the need for troops to get into Macedonia.

I didn't distort any facts: US troops were in Macedonia protecting against Serbian aggression.

Vic, I would like to read more about this. Any useful links?
BTW, I'm quite partial to Chipotle in the USA, so not everything is bad over there lol