Republic of Macedonia's EU and NATO Strategies

[spitfire]

Spitfire you are really talking out of your arse right now. Which is nothing new coming from people our ilk.

Re the Macedonian minorities in Aegean Macedonia. You say they don't exist.
Forget for one second about the people there for a moment.

what about the Macdonians in the diaspora that have migrated from that region in the last say 50 years to differnt parts of the world eg Australia, USA, Canada.

These people are all from there.
They must have many relatives that remained there.
I can have a confersation with them in Macedonian and I know about 5 words of greek.
probably population of 1 mil world wide.

Don't worry, I'll tell you what your problem is no need to admit anything.

you people use the work idiom when you should be using the word minority. That's about as pathetic as it gets.

It is very nice to see you commiting intellectual suicide.

Name one macedonian minority around the globe. Why isn't there one since there are so many macedonian communities?

Start using the correct words for the correct circumstances.

[sydney]

Name one Greek minority?

[spitfire]

Name one Greek minority?

The one of North Epirus, present day Albania.

Anything else?

[sydney]

Yes there is something else, and that is an officially recognised Macedonian minority in Albania. I know how pedantic you are about the definition of a minority so I'm glad you called out Albania. I wouldn't want you to be disappointed.

You can play word games all day about what is a minority and try and claim hollow victories in your own mind. Pathetic.

[spitfire]

Yes there is something else, and that is an officially recognised Macedonian minority in Albania. I know how pedantic you are about the definition of a minority so I'm glad you called out Albania. I wouldn't want you to be disappointed.

You can play word games all day about what is a minority and try and claim hollow victories in your own mind. Pathetic.

Great. And because of that, you want another minority somewhere else.

Well here's the point. I'm also glad you reffered to that. In this way you can see what a minority is. At least you understand what an international recognition is. You also know about the albnians in your country. You also know that you have two official languages in your country. And finally, you know that these minorities, since they are officially recognized, are a thing between your state and the Albanian state. Not somebody else's business. And that's after you both decide on the type of the minority actually.
So stop asking and imagining things. And come to your senses.

[Soldier of Macedon]

There is no macedonian minority in Greece.

This, along with a number of other ridiculous and idiotic utterances you've made as of late have earned you a permanent ban. Back to the barn with your incessant wankery you racist piece of shit.

[sydney]

So your point has changed now. I thought there was no Macedonian minority - anywhere - according to the definition you hold so dear to your programmed heart. Keep on babbling.

[Nikolaj]

Spitfire, I would like to begin by highlighting the fallacies in your post in red.

Nikolaj, the borders in the archaic world are not like the borders today. I'm sure you can understand that. There were city states and in fact a representation of the map represents what they called as their region.

Incorrect, both scenario’s still do not imply Macedon was a city state, nor does it imply it was part of the archaic world. Nevertheless Macedon was not part of the archaic world, as I demonstrated earlier. What you proposed just now does not change the reality and facts of my response to you. In fact, you chose to ignore them and respond to me with something as irrelevant as that. Instead of trying to prove me wrong on facts, you change your approach and ignore what I wrote. This shows signs of insecurity which implies you are wrong and cannot back up what you said. Why would you do this? Is this maybe because what you said I was you actually are, a scam?

So I take it that you don't extend this to the archaic world, which is good, because if you do, you 'll end up like the brainless nationalists, who try to prove this link and become the lauphing stock worldwide showing how uneducated they are.

I have not once referenced to the archaic world, not once. I do not avoid referencing to the archaic world because it proves or disproves Macedon being a part of it. In fact, you are the one who always resorts to it in historical analysis to ignore facts and justify it doesn’t matter because Macedon was a part of the archaic world. Would you like me to dig and find at least 5 Spitfire quotes or common courtesy, you can admit you remember? Actually Spitfire, who is the brainless nationalist here?

You also avoid being called a scam trying to manipulate history by choosing carefully a few extracts from here and there, delliberatelly hiding the bigger picture, in order to make up a fictional reality.

I have told you numerous times. I have great respect for honest and rational discussion, and no respect for distortion and misrepresentation. If you have not realized, the ethnicity of the Macedonians has never been concluded by any serious scholar, at most, a proposed theory. Your pseudo-Hellenic politicians have induced a nationalistic mindset in your historians and are in fact the ones who ‘carefully choose a few extracts from here and there, hiding the bigger picture’. Hence why your historians and websites supporting your view still reference to Eugene Borza’s old book instead of his new due to his change of opinions and greater justifications, pathetic. These are the same historians who treat the ethnicity of the Macedonians to be factually Greek and inspire the sheep to follow. This raw statement is irrefutable proof that it is not me, or other members on this forum who distort history, but your historians and brainwashed pseudo-Hellenes.

Have you not noticed the selective quoting in your history books? Have you not noticed they do not explain the whole story, not once? You’re telling me, they ignore Herodotus, Demosthenes, and much, much more ancient Roman and Greek historians who clearly deny the notion of a Greek ethnicity of the Macedonians and we are the ones being selective? Listen to yourself, you’re a fool and you cannot see it. I forgot, self-determination, right? The same self-determination you gave the Macedonians in that census we were discussing earlier? You give the benefit of the doubt to Alexander I who is clearly trying to create some mutual respect as an individual, and do not give the benefit of the doubt to the census who falsely label the Macedonians as Slavs of hundreds of thousands? Who should be given benefit of the doubt here?

Up to this, the thesis of Greece agrees to my thesis. And in fact the intention and interest about archaic macedonia is a sincere one.

Well of course Spitfire, this is what they taught you in Greek school. Congratulations, a five star obviously unbiased, non-diluted, ‘Skopian’ loving education. Is Greece to disagree with their own thesis? No.

But,
Unfortunately, because of the underlying connection that the name of macedonia has with a lot of things, that include also archaic macedonia of course, Greece is avoiding recent history. And this is where my thesis and Greece's thesis start thinking of a divorce.
I don't need to explain why, it is obvious why I disagree.

Let me stop you right there. Macedon was not a part of archaic Greece, for the same reason why I stated earlier. I love how you think Greece has some form of security to their claim of Macedonia because of the archaic Greek world. Foolish, actually, is this the possible laughing stock of the world you were referring to?

When it comes to the use of the word minority, this is a very dangerous terminology because it concearns the internal affairs of a country different to yours.

It is an internal affair within of a country different of mine but relevant to people of mine. This is what an embassy is for, too bad they do not have one of these.
Let me give you a hypothetical scenario where the principle holds consistent. A young girl has been kidnapped and taken from Georgia and taken to Armenia. Is the mother and father going to ignore this as it is out of their control due to the kid being within different boarders to them? Fuck, no.

If you observed closely, the Rainbow party avoids any official report to a minority. It lets the colour or the smell of a minority to hang around, but it doesn't officially talk about a minority. It uses words like community.

Yes, they sure do.

Those people are greek citizens, with their unique culture, and it should stay that way. Whatever claims they have it's between them and their state. Not anybody else's business.
They can't be regarded a minority because a minority usually identifies a different ethnic group. They are not such, they say they are greeks.

Not only have you failed to see the significance to why they do this. But also, ignore the reality to why, and what would happen to them if they did not call themselves Greeks. We can confirm this through a social framework and structure, but the reality of the world is not everything is written on paper, not everything can be proven in the court of law, killers go free and innocent go to jail.

They aren't even a religious group.

Relevance?

What's left? The language. This is tricky. That's because it is an idiom and idioms are not rare. Also the term idiom is a general term. Even a heavy pronunciation can be regarded an idiom in some cases. You understand where this leads to.

This is as wrong as your justification to what makes a minority; as I explained to you in my previous post to why. However, I just noticed you were banned so I’m not going to even bother…

So the best thing is to leave them alone, and what they want will be affair between them and the greek state.

I’m sure you would love that. I’m sure ISIS would love that too in their own context and situation.

Edit:
Like I said earlier Spitfire, I did not want you banned for numerous reasons. If you want to discuss anything further please contact me at [email protected]

[Momce Makedonce]

So the best thing is to leave them alone, and what they want will be affair between them and the greek state.

Yes I am sure the Greek state has their best interests at heart

I wonder what Spitfire and the Greek state would do if a Greek minority in the Republic of Macedonia was having these issues. Would they just "leave them alone" and let them work it out?

Gubre skapano.

[Amphipolis]

It`s his personal choice to identify as Macedonian, unlike his relative who has probably sold himself out and become a 'pure' Greek overnight.

What state was he referring to specifically when he said this? The Republic of Macedonia or Greece?

I have seen an interview with Voskopoulos on a TV station from the Republic of Macedonia. Surely if he was saying he doesn't want to get used by this state(Rep of Macedonia) he wouldn`t have made an appearance for an interview.

This is an accurate translation. It may seem a little inconsistent but that's how it really was, oral with long parentheses and interruptions and sentences that would go nowhere...

Voskopoulos- Mostly, and since we’re discussing about our country, Greece, sometimes we judge the others with our own criteria,

Valianatos -we always do…

Voskopoulos- we too of course, as members of Rainbow, all these years, that we’ve been trying in a positive way to give a positive stimulus in Greek society, along with other co-citizens, and denounce for the last 15-20 years, and we’re bored of saying, and we’ll keep on saying it, WE are Macedonians, that is we want… we express, it is our right, we express our diversity (difference) in terms of language, culture and conscience of belonging to an ethnic (national) community or minority in our country, BUT WE never said and we will never say we are the ethnic (national) community or the ethnic-Macedonians of another neighboring country; unfortunately, this logic in our country ALWAYS means

Valianatos (unclear): that you should go…

Voskopoulos: …. When she (Greece) wants to intervene in Southern Albania, you see I’m very careful not to say North Epirus, we…

Valianatos: especially you, cause you’ve been burnt

Voskopoulos: …. We who are in Northern Greece, we’re an ethnic (national) minority in Northern Greece or an ethnic (national) community, ethnic group, the ethnic-Macedonians, we don’t want to play a role- and I emphasize that- we will NEVER be a condom, forgive my expression,

Valianatos: (unclear) …

Voskopoulos: a condom is perfect when two people make love, but in the end it ends up in the dustbin, so WE (who are a new generation) and we are Macedonians we have the consciousness of our Macedonism in the way we understand it in Northern Greece…


(he continues to a different direction and I was already tired of translating)


===

[sydney]

Thanks Amphipolis, that's an interesting read. It's reads (to me) quite differently to the way spitball was trying to paint it. And that is the same message as always - we seek our rights and recognition as Macedonians, to freely speak our Macedonian language, to freely embrace our Macedonian culture, we are natives of what is now northern Greece, and we don't seek union with the Republic of Macedonia.

Seems clear enough to me.

[Nikolaj]

Thanks Amphipolis, that's an interesting read. It's reads (to me) quite differently to the way spitball was trying to paint it. And that is the same message as always - we seek our rights and recognition as Macedonians, to freely speak our Macedonian language, to freely embrace our Macedonian culture, we are natives of what is now northern Greece, and we don't seek union with the Republic of Macedonia.

Seems clear enough to me.

Could someone link me the video? Also, this is a single case, you'd be a fool to believe he is the only one, especially when he says 'we'.

[Amphipolis]

Could someone link me the video? Also, this is a single case, you'd be a fool to believe he is the only one, especially when he says 'we'.

It is in 27:00-29:00 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA_M62Onwlc

[George S.]

Spitfire is a dopey moron.He is brainwashed to beleive there are no macedonians in greece.
i tried tio be fair with him and told him that in all the literature the greek govt had a propaganda program a relentless program to convince the world of the greekness of macedonia.That included a smear campaign that there are no macedonians in northern greece.It only admits to having slavs.That is how they concocted the slavophone slav macedonian terminology.Look at the approach to discredit us from calling ourselves macedonian.If we give in they will monopolise the name and everything associated with the macedonian heritage.So this moron is told what to beleive ,to beleive in the delusional world of whatever they are told.I think spitfire may be holding multiple accounts,he knows he has lost the battle that we know what were talking That our very existence proves who we are.WE are macedonians ,the living thing.Also our language is called macedonian.These morons can't even acknowledge basic provable things.The greek govt knows they got a losing battle as a majority of countries recognize ROM and for that reason all name negotiations should cease.Why negotiate your own identity??Just remember the greeks are not our friends,they are our enemies.Anymore moron greeks on this forum like spitfire should be banned.

[Momce Makedonce]

This is an accurate translation. It may seem a little inconsistent but that's how it really was, oral with long parentheses and interruptions and sentences that would go nowhere...

Voskopoulos- Mostly, and since we’re discussing about our country, Greece, sometimes we judge the others with our own criteria,

Valianatos -we always do…

Voskopoulos- we too of course, as members of Rainbow, all these years, that we’ve been trying in a positive way to give a positive stimulus in Greek society, along with other co-citizens, and denounce for the last 15-20 years, and we’re bored of saying, and we’ll keep on saying it, WE are Macedonians, that is we want… we express, it is our right, we express our diversity (difference) in terms of language, culture and conscience of belonging to an ethnic (national) community or minority in our country, BUT WE never said and we will never say we are the ethnic (national) community or the ethnic-Macedonians of another neighboring country; unfortunately, this logic in our country ALWAYS means

Valianatos (unclear): that you should go…

Voskopoulos: …. When she (Greece) wants to intervene in Southern Albania, you see I’m very careful not to say North Epirus, we…

Valianatos: especially you, cause you’ve been burnt

Voskopoulos: …. We who are in Northern Greece, we’re an ethnic (national) minority in Northern Greece or an ethnic (national) community, ethnic group, the ethnic-Macedonians, we don’t want to play a role- and I emphasize that- we will NEVER be a condom, forgive my expression,

Valianatos: (unclear) …

Voskopoulos: a condom is perfect when two people make love, but in the end it ends up in the dustbin, so WE (who are a new generation) and we are Macedonians we have the consciousness of our Macedonism in the way we understand it in Northern Greece…


(he continues to a different direction and I was already tired of translating)


===

Thanks for the translation. Based on this it appears Voskopoulos refers to a Macedonian "minority", which is contrary to what Spitfire was saying about the way he apparently never mentions this word when referring to this group of people.