Kosovo: News, Politics & Issues

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  • Volk
    Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 894

    #16
    Serbia is our biggest trading partner, an embargo by them as a response to recognition will put us on our knees.

    This is why recognition is so difficult
    Makedonija vo Srce

    Comment

    • Rogi
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 2343

      #17
      A quick plan...

      1. Talk to Russia and tell them now that there are multiple cases (Kosovo and Georgia), the precedent has been created and eventually you intend to recognise South Ossetia and Abkhazia - but you need strong Russian support in the name dispute. Also, ask Russia if they can send a mission (troops) to Macedonia to help guard the border with Kosovo. (The announcements alone would be enough to play the pro-Russian influence card here, symbolic for pushing EU/NATO into action for Macedonia).

      2. Talk to USA and tell them you're close to recognizing Kosovo, but to persuade the Macedonian people into accepting it, you need to see America in Action for Macedonia - that is, forcing Greece's hand for NATO and pushing EU for visa-liberalisation and a date for accession talks.

      3. Talk to Serbia and tell them that since their Russian Allies did the same thing in Georgia, you are under heavy International pressure from both sides to recognise the precedent set by both examples and thus recognize Kosovo and that you don't really want to - find out what Serbia can offer as a sweetener for delaying the inevitable - find out also what their reaction would be. They'd principally pull out their Ambassador for a few weeks, that's as far as they'd take it. They are now landlocked and need their access to Solun via Macedonia for their trade - an embargo by them can be returned by us and that would not be in anyone's interest so they wouldn't do it.

      4. Talk to China and discuss Taiwan and that you are under heavy pressure to recognize Kosovo and the precedent it sets - what can China offer Macedonia to help alleviate some of the International pressure, how can China help with the name dispute?

      5. Talk to Spain and discuss Catalonia and the Basque country, tell the Spaniards that you are under heavy pressure to recognize Kosovo and the precedent it sets and as the immediate neighbouring country to Kosovo, your recognition is significant. Discuss what Spain can do to lobby for an EU-accession date, as a sweetener to help alleviate the pressure (the pressure mostly being EU/NATO related) on Macedonia and help Macedonia delay or avoid recognition.

      6. Talk to Albania and let them know that you'd like to recognize Kosovo but are weary of the potential backlash amongst the Macedonian people and the re-action of the Albanians in Macedonia to that backlash. Ask for some strong statements from Albania's leadership about strong Macedonian-Albanian relations and some strong public statements about the success of Macedonia's human and minority rights, etc. Enough to have something very strong on record to be used for PR Blitz when/if needed in future.

      7. Finally, talk to Kosovo and tell them that you are prepared to recognize Kosovo and be a great neighbour, including investing heavily in Kosovo and helping it's economy. To do this, they need to recognise Macedonia's Constitutional name and the border demarcation needs to be completed - as well as a number of laws allowing Macedonians to have special privileges in investing in Kosovo, etc (whatever can be arranged) as well as offering easy Kosovo-citizenships to Albanians from Macedonia to stimulate investments in Kosovo. The Government should prepare to take out some loans, sure it's costly, but national interests always are, and employ some 20,000 Albanian-Macedonians, over the following 3-4 years into working in Kosovo (and moving there with families) - with some of the money from those loans, buy those 5,000 houses out - offer them at reduced costs to Macedonians from Diaspora or young Macedonian couples to stimulate ethno-demographic re-balancing in certain areas.


      Anything above can be adjusted if I've overseen or missed anything, but what do you think?
      Last edited by Rogi; 09-10-2008, 10:35 AM.

      Comment

      • Spartan
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 1037

        #18
        Originally posted by Rogi View Post
        A quick plan...
        2. Talk to USA and tell them you're close to recognizing Kosovo, but to persuade the Macedonian people into accepting it, you need to see America in Action for Macedonia - that is, forcing Greece's hand for NATO and pushing EU for visa-liberalisation and a date for accession talks.
        Why would you want to join such a racist, and backwards organization such as the EU?

        Comment

        • Rogi
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 2343

          #19
          To ultimately remove the borders between the 3 parts of Macedonia in a Europe without borders, and let all Macedonian people mix freely. That is the national interest.

          But that's not the point of my post, let's stick to the topic at hand.

          Comment

          • Risto the Great
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 15658

            #20
            Originally posted by Rogi View Post
            A quick plan...

            1. Talk to Russia and tell them now that there are multiple cases (Kosovo and Georgia), the precedent has been created and eventually you intend to recognise South Ossetia and Abkhazia - but you need strong Russian support in the name dispute. Also, ask Russia if they can send a mission (troops) to Macedonia to help guard the border with Kosovo. (The announcements alone would be enough to play the pro-Russian influence card here, symbolic for pushing EU/NATO into action for Macedonia).

            2. Talk to USA and tell them you're close to recognizing Kosovo, but to persuade the Macedonian people into accepting it, you need to see America in Action for Macedonia - that is, forcing Greece's hand for NATO and pushing EU for visa-liberalisation and a date for accession talks.

            3. Talk to Serbia and tell them that since their Russian Allies did the same thing in Georgia, you are under heavy International pressure from both sides to recognise the precedent set by both examples and thus recognize Kosovo and that you don't really want to - find out what Serbia can offer as a sweetener for delaying the inevitable - find out also what their reaction would be. They'd principally pull out their Ambassador for a few weeks, that's as far as they'd take it. They are now landlocked and need their access to Solun via Macedonia for their trade - an embargo by them can be returned by us and that would not be in anyone's interest so they wouldn't do it.

            4. Talk to China and discuss Taiwan and that you are under heavy pressure to recognize Kosovo and the precedent it sets - what can China offer Macedonia to help alleviate some of the International pressure, how can China help with the name dispute?

            5. Talk to Spain and discuss Catalonia and the Basque country, tell the Spaniards that you are under heavy pressure to recognize Kosovo and the precedent it sets and as the immediate neighbouring country to Kosovo, your recognition is significant. Discuss what Spain can do to lobby for an EU-accession date, as a sweetener to help alleviate the pressure (the pressure mostly being EU/NATO related) on Macedonia and help Macedonia delay or avoid recognition.

            6. Talk to Albania and let them know that you'd like to recognize Kosovo but are weary of the potential backlash amongst the Macedonian people and the re-action of the Albanians in Macedonia to that backlash. Ask for some strong statements from Albania's leadership about strong Macedonian-Albanian relations and some strong public statements about the success of Macedonia's human and minority rights, etc. Enough to have something very strong on record to be used for PR Blitz when/if needed in future.

            7. Finally, talk to Kosovo and tell them that you are prepared to recognize Kosovo and be a great neighbour, including investing heavily in Kosovo and helping it's economy. To do this, they need to recognise Macedonia's Constitutional name and the border demarcation needs to be completed - as well as a number of laws allowing Macedonians to have special privileges in investing in Kosovo, etc (whatever can be arranged) as well as offering easy Kosovo-citizenships to Albanians from Macedonia to stimulate investments in Kosovo. The Government should prepare to take out some loans, sure it's costly, but national interests always are, and employ some 20,000 Albanian-Macedonians, over the following 3-4 years into working in Kosovo (and moving there with families) - with some of the money from those loans, buy those 5,000 houses out - offer them at reduced costs to Macedonians from Diaspora or young Macedonian couples to stimulate ethno-demographic re-balancing in certain areas.


            Anything above can be adjusted if I've overseen or missed anything, but what do you think?
            All of the above.

            Or else, get better prices negotiated with Kosovo for drugs.
            Risto the Great
            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

            Comment

            • Pelister
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 2742

              #21
              RTG, you crack me up/ (I mean that literally :-)

              Coolski and Roqi, you made some excellent points.

              This "would" have been my response. Recongise Kosovo on the condition that:

              1. It returns the Gora region to Macedonia
              2. Recognizes Macedonia under its Constitutional name

              But that really doesn't help Macedonian one iota !

              Who else thinks Kosovo is legitimate? Not many.

              Someone made the point that Serbia would put an economic blockade on Macedonia which would cripple the little country.

              There is also the issue of Albanians who want to break away from Macedonia. It sets a very dangerous precedents.

              But...Roqi, your dead right.

              The only thing I would add to your list is that Kosovo gives the Gora region back to Macedonia, and that it recognizes the Macedonian minority, its language, officially (and, assurance from Kosovo's friends in the E.U they will recongize Macedonia)
              Last edited by Pelister; 09-11-2008, 12:47 AM. Reason: Try to add humor to my post

              Comment

              • Volk
                Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 894

                #22
                Most of you seem to be overemphasizing the importance of Macedonia to the IC...

                Facts are we are not really cared about... thats the reality.

                Here is the trade off:

                Dont recognize Kosovo, the Sips will start to get agrovated and wave guns around

                Recognize: jepardize our relationship with our largest trading partner and one of our closest friends
                Makedonija vo Srce

                Comment

                • Pelister
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 2742

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Volk View Post
                  Most of you seem to be overemphasizing the importance of Macedonia to the IC...

                  Facts are we are not really cared about... thats the reality.

                  Here is the trade off:

                  Dont recognize Kosovo, the Sips will start to get agrovated and wave guns around

                  Recognize: jepardize our relationship with our largest trading partner and one of our closest friends
                  Isn't that the truth of it.

                  The E.U and the I.C do not care about Macedonia. It is just not that important to them, and I think there is a lesson in this for the Macedonian government.

                  Russia has realized that these "clubs" have their own agenda, so it now going to open new trade and diplomatic relations with anyone who wants to trade with it.

                  I wouldn't recognize Kosovo, not unless they handed back Gora. The Gora region, remember, was ceded from Macedonia, by Serbia in 1967. It therefore, rightly belongs to Macedonia, and not to Kosovo. I think the Macedonians should be asking for Gora back.

                  Comment

                  • Rogi
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 2343

                    #24
                    Nobody needs to care about Macedonia. In fact, you should never base any foreign policy on a particular country caring about yours. Every country has it's own interests - thus, you present something to them that works in your interests, but appears to be in their interests.

                    Here's a general rule:

                    "When asking for help, appeal to a people's self-interest, never to their mercy or gratitude"

                    - Robert Greene, The 48 Laws of Power

                    Comment

                    • Pelister
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 2742

                      #25
                      Here is Pelister's law of Common Sense.

                      Is it in Macedonia's self interest to compromise its name again? Some in the diaspora (!) would say it was. Some in UMD certainly thought so some time ago, and would you say they "care" about what happens to Macedonia? I'm sure some of them do.

                      Macedonia needs relationships with states that are based on mutual respect, recognition ... etc. I would say that that is a perfect place to base foriegn relations on.

                      Furthermore, what people have to realize is that there are States and clubs out there that make it their mission to scorn and deride Macedonians. In that context, I would say any state that can show mutual respect and recognition for Macedonia definitely goes in the "care" basket, and again, that is a perfect place to base foriegn relations on.

                      I think what Volk was referring to was the imbalance and uneveness, in the relationship between Macedonia, and say the E.U or Macedonia and say Greece, or NATO... etc.

                      What are Macedonians willing to compromise now? Is it a benefit to Macedonia to join the E.U? What would be the costs to its soveriegnty and identity, if it did?

                      The one and the only bench mark the Macedonian should concern themselves with for any relationship, negotiations ... etc, should be this: a complete and unequivacle recognition and mutual respect of Macedonian identity and soveriegnty. I don't think its in Macedonia's self interest to continue any kind of relationship with the E.U or with Greece, because they fail to meet this very basic, and fundamental principle.

                      Otherwise, the Macedonians are just pawns.

                      Comment

                      • Rogi
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 2343

                        #26
                        Pelister, I don't know who you are, but I think you are pushing forward a smear campaign for no apparent reason.

                        Who in the diaspora thought that Macedonia should compromise on its name? I am yet to meet one such person.

                        Who in UMD thought that Macedonia should compromise on its name? As a member of the UMD Board of Directors, I assure you, that is the complete opposite of UMD's position. In fact in every communiqué with the Government, UMD has been pushing forward the position of abandoning the name negotiations, from its inception, to as recent as our meeting with the Prime Minister and President in July/August in Macedonia this year as well as the Prime Minister's most recent visit to the US.

                        Of course, as we have seen throughout Macedonia's history, those who want to destroy every group that makes attempts at moving Macedonia forward, will try every trick in the book, including such smear campaigns.

                        My personal view had always been our name, identity, culture, history, country and people must be defended at all costs, including that of war (yes, I would go, like many of my relatives who volunteered in 2001) - and the absolute majority of UMD's leadership shared and share this position.
                        Last edited by Rogi; 09-13-2008, 02:12 AM.

                        Comment

                        • Rogi
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 2343

                          #27
                          The idea here is not based on compromise.

                          The name negotiations are a farce, currently they only exist because the Macedonian Government is afraid to appear 'not willing to sit on a table and talk' - for fear of losing diplomatic support.
                          Is there some logic in that? Arguably, yes.
                          Is it the right move? In my opinion, no.


                          The idea and point here is, firstly about recognition of Kosovo, but also, what Macedonia can milk out of EU, NATO and everyone else that it can... what can Macedonia do to forward its interests, if we see the potential Kosovo recognition (or non-recognition) situation as an opportunity.

                          Comment

                          • Risto the Great
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 15658

                            #28
                            Macedonia's trade exchange with Kosovo



                            Macedonia is more interested in nourishing the economic cooperation with Kosovo than vice-verca, considering its large surplus from the trade exchange between the two parties, concluded participants in a debate on Macedonia-Kosovo Economic Ties.

                            The debate took place Thursday in Skopje in organization of the Forum Centre for Strategic Research and Documentation in cooperation with the Swiss Embassy in the country.

                            Besim Bekaj, Chairman of Kosovo's Chamber of Commerce, expressed satisfaction with the economic cooperation between Macedonia and Kosovo, saying that it should not be based only on exchange of goods, but also offer opportunities for joint presentation at third markets.

                            - The solid economic cooperation is not followed by the political one and therefore it has been facing numerous institutional obstacles in spite of the fact that both countries are signatories of the regional free trade agreements. Macedonia should soon accept the new political reality and recognize Kosovo independence, thus eliminating unnecessary barriers and boosting the economic cooperation, Bekaj said.

                            Last year Macedonia-Kosovo trade exchange was at Euro 180 million, i.e. Macedonia's export was at Euro 170 and import form Kosovo at 10 million, Bekaj said.

                            Macedonia-Kosovo trade exchange has been based on the Interim and the Free Trade Agreement with former Serbia and Montenegro, former economy minister Stevco Jakimovski said.

                            The trade exchange with Kosovo is among the few that brings surplus to Macedonia, which will be altered in the future as the number of countries that are going to recognize it will go up, Jakimovski said.

                            The European Union and US have pledged Euro one billion at the last Kosovo Donors' Conference, which demonstrates the interest of the West in Kosovo, Jakimovski said.

                            Macedonia should work in favor of its economic interests and accordingly recognize Kosovo he added.

                            Asked about possible Kosovo sanctions if Macedonia fails to recognize its independence soon, Bekaj said Kosovo business community was not considering such a development.

                            - We are expecting for Macedonia to have a different approach to good neighborly relations. We will do our best to avoid boycotting of Macedonian products, but also expect for the country to act promptly, which refers to both political, business elite, Bekaj said.
                            Risto the Great
                            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15658

                              #29
                              I would love to see a breakdown of what is being sold to Kosovo.

                              Especially before I comment on "who needs who" more.
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

                              • Rogi
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 2343

                                #30
                                As far as I am aware, a substantial chunk of those exports are from Albanian-run companies in Macedonia, which is why I think it will be very, very unlikely that Kosovo would do that to 'their own'.

                                Comment

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