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Old 01-11-2018, 06:11 PM   #11
Amphipolis
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I can tell you the latest news from Greece:

-Independent Greeks (the 2nd Government Party) will not support the agreement

-The Government is not willing to go to a referendum

-Some initial demonstrations are organized (each Sunday) in Thessaloniki, yet held by rather unknown organizations

-Church also has started to mobilize against an agreement (today there was a Gov. statement against the Church because of that)

-New Democracy (the main opposition party) seems to agree though they are afraid of political cost or people leaving the party and making a new one.
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Old 01-11-2018, 06:32 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Amphipolis View Post
I can tell you the latest news from Greece:

-Independent Greeks (the 2nd Government Party) will not support the agreement

-The Government is not willing to go to a referendum

-Some initial demonstrations are organized (each Sunday) in Thessaloniki, yet held by rather unknown organizations

-Church also has started to mobilize against an agreement (today there was a Gov. statement against the Church because of that)

-New Democracy (the main opposition party) seems to agree though they are afraid of political cost or people leaving the party and making a new one.
If it wasn't for greek recalcitrance and their innate donkey stubbornness, the gypsy politicians on our side would have sold the name a long time ago...
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Old 01-11-2018, 06:38 PM   #13
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LOL I said as much in another thread, that if they fail to change the name it will only be because Greece wouldn't accept any name with Macedonia in it. Thank god for racist and chauvinistic Greeks, with out them, Macedonia wouldn't exist.

But lets not celebrate too early. Because I wouldn't put it past our cowardly bunch to accept a name without Macedonia in it, which Greece would certainly accept.

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If it wasn't for greek recalcitrance and their innate donkey stubbornness, the gypsy politicians on our side would have sold the name a long time ago...
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Old 01-11-2018, 06:51 PM   #14
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Thank god for racist and chauvinistic Greeks, with out them, Macedonia wouldn't exist.
That's probably more true than you realise. The fact that Macedonia survived the first few years of independence and didn't revert to some form of union with Serbia probably had more to do with wider Macedonian mobilisation against Greek chauvinism than any real desire for freedom. Yes, there will always be a core group of patriots, but Macedonian nationalism (the real meaning of the word not the media meaning of the word) has been described as more of a reactionary survival instinct than some form of pride or desire for freedom. And I tend to agree with that observation for the most part.

While Greece's contrived name issue is quite the masterstroke, what they failed to realise is that their action only prolonged Macedonia's existence and drove Macedonian nationalism. If they just did nothing and waited it out, I hate to say that Macedonians may very well have joined some form of confederation very early on. I know that my own passion for Macedonian rights grew out of anger at what Greece was doing. Had it not been for that, I probably would not have found much interest in a country 20,000 km away, other than knowing that's were my parents came from.

But admittedly, that passion is slowly dying - if it isn't dead already. The past 25 years have taught me that this current generation of Macedonians will do anything to stay enslaved. What rot! Macedonia now feels more like an academic curiosity of a failed state and a dying identity. A massive disappointment to say the least.
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:18 PM   #15
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That's probably more true than you realise. The fact that Macedonia survived the first few years of independence and didn't revert to some form of union with Serbia probably had more to do with wider Macedonian mobilisation against Greek chauvinism than any real desire for freedom. Yes, there will always be a core group of patriots, but Macedonian nationalism (the real meaning of the word not the media meaning of the word) has been described as more of a reactionary survival instinct than some form of pride or desire for freedom. And I tend to agree with that observation for the most part.

While Greece's contrived name issue is quite the masterstroke, what they failed to realise is that their action only prolonged Macedonia's existence and drove Macedonian nationalism. If they just did nothing and waited it out, I hate to say that Macedonians may very well have joined some form of confederation very early on. I know that my own passion for Macedonian rights grew out of anger at what Greece was doing. Had it not been for that, I probably would not have found much interest in a country 20,000 km away, other than knowing that's were my parents came from.

But admittedly, that passion is slowly dying - if it isn't dead already. The past 25 years have taught me that this current generation of Macedonians will do anything to stay enslaved. What rot! Macedonia now feels more like an academic curiosity of a failed state and a dying identity. A massive disappointment to say the least.
Well said.
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:03 PM   #16
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From my understanding, the recent push for a referendum as well as the organisation of protests is mostly coming from the Greek diaspora who are still looking to promote the Greek Governments stance from 1992 i.e. name must exclude any reference to Macedonia

The conspiracy theorist in me can't help but feel that the best way to stop a referendum in RoM (which has the potential to humiliate the Greek Government), is to threaten with a referendum in RoG, which would no doubt see any proposal fail. Seeing this is contrary to the aim of RoM's government, it would be in their interests to "be fair" about the process and make sure both sides leave the decision out of the hands of the people...
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:27 PM   #17
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I do not see the advantage for Greece if Macedonia were to gain entry into the EU. Therefore I do not quite understand the willingness for Greece to match Macedonia's willingness to leave this out of the hands of the people via a referendum.

What would be in for Greece if Macedonia joins the EU and calls itself Nova Macedonia or any other name for that matter?
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:02 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
I do not see the advantage for Greece if Macedonia were to gain entry into the EU. Therefore I do not quite understand the willingness for Greece to match Macedonia's willingness to leave this out of the hands of the people via a referendum.

What would be in for Greece if Macedonia joins the EU and calls itself Nova Macedonia or any other name for that matter?
I agree that there is little advantage for Greece if Macedonia were to gain entry into the EU.

But then again I think the recent push has little to do with joining the EU and more to do with joining NATO.

Macedonia's EU membership, if it ever eventuates (even with a name change), is way off, I really don't see any progress for another 10 years at least to be honest, which has more to do with the EU's expansion plans then RoM actually meeting membership criteria.

However NATO membership is being sold as a common interest for Macedonia, Greece and the "West". NATO membership would be viewed as securing the states borders and hence the longevity of the state as an entity (Macedonia's interest), membership would also alleviate irrational fears of irredentism with neighbouring states (Greece's interests), and will solidify "Western" hegemony over the state (which appears to have become the "West's" interest right now and where I think this push is ultimately coming from)

This may be about EU and NATO membership to RoM (with the EU being falsely emphasised most to the minds of RoM's citizens), but it really is only about NATO membership to everyone else involved.

Macedonia is not entering the EU if it changes its name (if that day ever eventuates it will likely be a long way off), in my opinion this recent scenario is really about a push towards NATO (which again is not guaranteed either way).
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:35 PM   #19
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I don't think Macedonia is getting into NATO either. There is no threat to Greece either way. Even if there was, its security is only guaranteed as long as the US is prepared to guarantee it (NATO or not). In fact, Europe's security is only guaranteed for as long as the US is prepared to intervene. Outside of the UK, Europe (or the western half) is no longer willing to protect itself and I think that this has been obvious for a few decades now.

I think NATO's interest in Macedonia is very weak as well. Besides, Macedonia fully cooperates with NATO/EU interests regardless of whether its a member or not. The only difference to NATO that Macedonian membership would make is that it would then need to provide both funding and security guarantees with nothing new in return. I think its a bad deal (to quote Trump) for them.

I don't think Macedonia's name change will reap any 'reward' for them at all (if NATO/EU membership can even be considered beneficial - I think its highly debatable).
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:42 PM   #20
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I agree with Gocka. Greece will ultimately have a 'no mention Macedonia in constitutional name' clause. Nothing is going to happen, maybe the international community may have some sympathy on Macedonia because our politicians sold out everything for nothing, but regardless still no NATO or EU.
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