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Old 05-21-2014, 08:45 AM   #21
Vangelovski
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NG,

I'm amazed that Greeks have never questioned the white elephant in the room. Macedonians know exactly who they are and who you are. We've never been confused about this. Greeks, on the other hand, always seem confused, especially when they hear about the existence of people calling themselves Macedonians but affirming they're not Greek. One would think that the fact you lot are always confused about this should ring alarm bells that someone has been lying to you all your lives...but it doesn't...even though we live right next door and everyone else in the world seems to get it. A book called "1984" comes to mind...
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Old 05-21-2014, 09:05 AM   #22
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Don't talk to me about Macedonians in Yugoslavia. No need to look that far. Have your lot really forgotten about the Macedonians in Greece? What is the term? Endopi?

You probably even have a reason why Greece stopped calling the region Macedonia for a while.

Ahhh, I love Greeks with dangerous gaps in their knowledge.
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Old 05-21-2014, 09:06 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
NG,

I'm amazed that Greeks have never questioned the white elephant in the room. Macedonians know exactly who they are and who you are. We've never been confused about this. Greeks, on the other hand, always seem confused, especially when they hear about the existence of people calling themselves Macedonians but affirming they're not Greek. One would think that the fact you lot are always confused about this should ring alarm bells that someone has been lying to you all your lives...but it doesn't...even though we live right next door and everyone else in the world seems to get it. A book called "1984" comes to mind...
I've read 1984 in university. I have also read Anthony Burgess' "1985" a critique of "1984" and proposed response to it.

"1984" was written by George Orwell in 1948, he simply reversed the last two numbers. What Orwell was describing in his book "1984" was the future under communism. A fate that Greece escaped. In that world Big Brother controlled everything, (think Tito, and Stalin). It was a world where 1+1=3.



These two men formed the societies and thinking of Yugoslavia and Eastern Block Countries
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Old 05-21-2014, 09:11 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Don't talk to me about Macedonians in Yugoslavia. No need to look that far. Have your lot really forgotten about the Macedonians in Greece? What is the term? Endopi?

You probably even have a reason why Greece stopped calling the region Macedonia for a while.

Ahhh, I love Greeks with dangerous gaps in their knowledge.

In the island my family comes from they call themselves Endopi (Natives) as apposed to those from other parts of Greece. In Makedonia there are endopi (Natives) of differing stock. One of those stocks are Greeks.
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Old 05-21-2014, 12:25 PM   #25
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Nikola what do you think of this strategy already achieved over 130 countries around the world recognize Macedonia under its constitutional name.This is all the more reason for the name negotiations to cease don't you think it would be an idea to inform your good greek buddies.Another thing now that your seen the main strategy Greece's insistence on a name change to enter Nato or EU does not hold any water.
Also it is my belief that the name discussions is not a two way dispute as Macedonia has not got a dispute with the name only Greece has the problem supposedly.
Another thing Greece is doing is bullying Macedonia and implying to enter nato or eu by placing extra conditions on Macedonia.Might I say in the annals of history the practice of forcing one to change their name has been unheard of.
Clearly Greece must learn to behave in a world of nations where Macedonia is recognized fully by her proper name.What is Greece scared of that the world will find out that Greece's claim there are no Macedonians is false,that the 1912 division of Macedonia to 3 countries was a sham for a land grab.A a strategist you better check your history it says Macedonia was clearly occupied and people were affected by atrocities of exile ,assimilation,genocide,racial cleansing etc.One last point we as the real Macedonians have the truth on our side.You sir have the opposite on your side what possible advantage do you have when you represent falsity,lying,deceit,thieving etc an antithesis of being everything Macedonian.(anti Macedonian).Macedonia needs more respect actually should get more respect from its neighbours as its the right thing to do.Don't expect Macedonia to do everything like capitulate but what effort is Greece making?
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Old 05-21-2014, 12:34 PM   #26
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Nikola what do you think of this strategy already achieved over 130 countries around the world recognize Macedonia under its constitutional name.This is all the more reason for the name negotiations to cease don't you think it would be an idea to inform your good greek buddies.Another thing now that your seen the main strategy Greece's insistence on a name change to enter Nato or EU does not hold any water.
Also it is my belief that the name discussions is not a two way dispute as Macedonia has not got a dispute with the name only Greece has the problem supposedly.
Another thing Greece is doing is bullying Macedonia and implying to enter nato or eu by placing extra conditions on Macedonia.Might I say in the annals of history the practice of forcing one to change their name has been unheard of.
Clearly Greece must learn to behave in a world of nations where Macedonia is recognized fully by her proper name.What is Greece scared of that the world will find out that Greece's claim there are no Macedonians is false,that the 1912 division of Macedonia to 3 countries was a sham for a land grab.A a strategist you better check your history it says Macedonia was clearly occupied and people were affected by atrocities of exile from thir place of birth ,assimilation,genocide,racial cleansing etc.One last point we as the real Macedonians have the truth on our side.Do you know that the Macedonians were indigenous to their place of residence.You sir have the opposite on your side what possible advantage do you have when you represent falsity,lying,deceit,thieving etc an antithesis of being everything but Macedonian.(anti Macedonian).Macedonia needs more respect actually should get more respect from its neighbours as its the right thing to do.Don't expect Macedonia to do everything like capitulate but what effort is Greece making?The reason why I'm asking is think about how Greece came into holding 51% of Macedonia by illegal means.I would regard that as a poor strategy on their part as they will be hounded forever by what they did.During the 19 and 20th centuries a lot of countries had their borders revised for no other reason than a landgrab.This was a very poor strategy by Greece as it can't live with itself to even admit what it has done.As I said the Macedonians have the TRUTH on their side,You don't.Go back & tell your govt to desist with the name change as its pointless given the circumstances.
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Old 05-21-2014, 12:54 PM   #27
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You probably even have a reason why Greece stopped calling the region Macedonia for a while.
I repeat: Greece NEVER stopped calling its Macedonian region as Macedonia, either for while or for long. NEVER.
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Old 05-21-2014, 02:35 PM   #28
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Nikola what do you think of this strategy already achieved over 130 countries around the world recognize Macedonia under its constitutional name.This is all the more reason for the name negotiations to cease don't you think it would be an idea to inform your good greek buddies.Another thing now that your seen the main strategy Greece's insistence on a name change to enter Nato or EU does not hold any water.
George S, acquiring bilateral relations with other countries under the constitutional name, I think currently 130, is so that the Republic of Macedonia can request the UN to accept it under its constitutional name. The strategy was that it would be a fait accompli and Greece would have no choice but to accept it. This was Branko Crvenkovski & Nikola Gruevski's strategy. You would think that it would work!?




As well the Republic of Macedonia participated in the Iraq War and the Bush Administration was your strongest supporter for both NATO and EU entry. The Republic of Macedonia never felt like it had to really negotiate with Greece. There was always the Double Formula solution where the Republic of Macedonia use its constitutional name everywhere but Greece, because as you just said,The Republic of Macedonia does not have a name issue, Greece does. But Greece does not have an issue with NATO and EU entry The Republic of Macedonia does. The Republic of Macedonia also has an Albanian issue, and now a Republic of Bulgaria issue and once the Greek elections are over The Republic of Macedonia will have a Golden Dawn issue.


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Athens - If lawmakers Golden Dawn set foot in Brussels after the European Parliament elections, will not allow admission to our country in the EU under the name Macedonia. The name dispute will be one of the major topics that will address the Greek neo-Nazi party if you enter this European institution next four years.

"We need to stop mockery of the name. Skopje, if you want to enter the EU and other organization, need to stop thinking like this and forget the name Macedonia or any adjective. "The name Macedonia is one and belongs only to the region of Greek Macedonia, which is," said the MP of the Golden Dawn, Ilias Panajotaros, when asked what would be their stance on Macedonia's EU if entering the European Parliament.

Gligorov, the man everyone here calls a traitor was simply a very realistic man that loved his country. He would have compromised early on and Greece would lost. Samaras in a video said that time is on Greece's side so unlike Papandreou would not meet with Gruevski. As the Republic of Macedonia had no interest to negotiate so too Samaras was not interested in play acting.

Gruevski's strategy was this:

This and many many more buildings further isolated the Republic of Macedonia after 2008 rather than isolating Greece. Rather than waiting for NATO to put Greece in its place after 2008 Bucharest, Gruevski took a NATO member to the World Court and so NATO closed ranks as they saw this as an threat to NATO process.

The Republic of Macedonia re-elected Gruevski a Prime Minister whom no Greek Prime Minister will welcome onto Greek soil. Everyone on this forum will realize that they have got their wish and the negotiations are in all practical purposes over. They do not exist anymore.


No Greek Government will now consider "Northern", "North", "Upper", "Higher", "Smaller", "Vardar" nor anything else with the recognizable term "Macedonia" in it. Your government has misplayed its hand.

Any one of the prefixes above are as the Greek Government stated in so many times, "A starting point for negotiations..." not the final name that they will settle on.
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Old 05-21-2014, 04:09 PM   #29
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you know that Greece mellowed its stance when president mitsotakis was in power.He said Macedonia can call herself that but under greek conditions.Thats why there is an insistence on suffixes & prefixes on the name.reviously no one would ccept use of word Macedonia.Did you know gruevski put forth name to Athens as republic of Macedonia (skopje) apparently Greece refused.You know what Greece wants is to change the name
a name like north Macedonia funny for a country name would leave Greece with a monopoly over the name.Or any change would give Greece an upper hand.
Also you know that there is a principle of sef identification.You are who you identify.
As well the result of 130 countries means Greece has virtually lost the battle.I remember reading at one of the websites from an embassy that Greece was considering throwing in the proverbial towel.also recently they thought of giving up the name talks as they were
boring.So there is a weakening of their strategy but its still line in the sand stuff.
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Old 05-21-2014, 04:30 PM   #30
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Mitsotaki!!!!

That is ancient history. Samaras is a hardliner with this issue. Do you believe that any Greek politician will back-down now and let The Republic of Macedonia get anything?

I was counting the the initial poll results and Golden Dawn looks to win 26 seats in Greek parliament and maybe 6 in the European Parliament.

Greek total military for is 461,600
Republic of Macedonia is 12,850

Greece has strategic ports in Makedonia, Attiki and Krete. Alliances with Israel, partnerships with Russia, Historic ties with France and England

If I was Germany I would know which country to pressure, and it would not be a NATO and EU member.


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