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Old 09-30-2018, 04:21 AM   #21
Pelagonija
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Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
Macedonians constantly fall into these silly traps and don't realize they are advocating for things that if applied to Macedonians would be detrimental to us.

Asserting that Ukrainians are a fake people and that Ukraine was artificially created to split apart Russia, is EXACTLY the argument that is made by both Serbia and Bulgaria towards Macedonia. That is bullshit Russian propaganda, and honestly I have been accustomed to it on this forum by quite a few people. Putting the Russian bullshit aside, how can people not realize that this is not just pro Russian, its anti Macedonian.

I didn't even want to comment on the topic because I knew I would be immediately painted as a pro American stooge, but RTG made that critical point and I couldn't resist.

We are clueless as a people and this is why no one on the world stage takes us seriously and just walk all over us. Then we wonder why they so easily paint us all as just some backwards Slavs, indistinguishable from Russians and Serbs. WE ARE!

Sve shto leta, ne se jadi.
I donít think anyone wants to insinuate that Ukrainians are fake and this is not a like for like comparison with the Macedonian cause, for one Constinople will recognise the Ukrainian church whilst the west provides us support with assisted euthanasia.

Links and examples were provided of the anti Russian propaganda hysteria which is taking place in Ukraine. This same western governments who are encouraging us to change our name are also supporting these fascists and constantly pumping out anti Russian hysteria in their own countries.

You saying being Pro Russian is being anti Macedonian, just for clarity sake is being pro American equal to being pro Macedonian?

Also what makes you think Slavs are backwards? Thatís a very broad racist comment? Is not racism associated with backwardness? This is a very American way of thinking?

The world need not be uni polar?
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Old 10-01-2018, 07:47 AM   #22
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Only the UOC-Moscow Patriarchate church enjoys recognition by the Orthodox Christian community worldwide. The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople indicated that the Church of Constantinople does not recognise the Moscow Patriarchate′s claim to ecclesiastical jurisdiction over ″the region of todayís Metropolis of Kiev″ and was considering granting autocephaly to the Kiev Patriarchate church.
A few points. The above is yet another example of hypocrisy from the Patriarchate of Constantinople when compared to their treatment of the Macedonian Orthodox Church. That hypocrisy stems from the overtly pro-Greek / anti-Macedonian stance of successive Patriarchs. And we should stop trying to gain the acceptance of Constantinople and other Orthodox Churches if they aren't willing to reciprocate with goodwill. Nothing they do will make us any more or less Christian. Some Macedonians are so desperate to completely belong to a supra-family (be it religious or political) that they're missing their right to something that could be so much better.
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Ukraine is morphing into a fascist state, that's a bad thing and even documented in western media. Its beyond a few drunk nazi's, look up the Azov battalion, the banning of Russian, the violent siezure of church property, the murders, banning journalists to name a few, beating a and murders of Romas.....It's all cool if they want their church, look at the motive.
There are certainly fascist elements in Ukraine, but to call the state fascist is a stretch. Ukraine has a right to choose its own path, but its geographical position means that Russia will be impacted by certain decisions made, especially if Ukraine turns more towards the West. Ultimately, people in both Ukraine and Russia have made mistakes. It could've been handled much better and it wasn't helped by U.S. and EU politicians openly interfering and basically doing what they accuse Russia of these days. There is so much bad blood now that it is unlikely Ukraine will become a unitary state, at least not in the foreseeable future. Hopefully peace and dignity comes to them one day.
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Old 10-01-2018, 07:02 PM   #23
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Remove the names of involved parties and substitute Macedonia and any of its neighbors and it is a like for like example.

[quote=Pelagonija;176744]I donít think anyone wants to insinuate that Ukrainians are fake and this is not a like for like comparison with the Macedonian cause, for one Constinople will recognise the Ukrainian church whilst the west provides us support with assisted euthanasia.[quote]

Ukrainians aren't by default fascists because they don't want to kneel to Russian domination. Russia invaded Ukraine, don't you think that is reason enough for Ukrainians hysteria and hatred towards Russia?

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Links and examples were provided of the anti Russian propaganda hysteria which is taking place in Ukraine. This same western governments who are encouraging us to change our name are also supporting these fascists and constantly pumping out anti Russian hysteria in their own countries.
No you said that. I said that declaring Ukrainians fascists for wanting sovereignty, and autonomy for their church is anti Macedonian because Macedonia his similar issues and interests and opponents as Ukraine. Being pro anything but pro Macedonian can not be substituted with being pro Macedonian.

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You saying being Pro Russian is being anti Macedonian, just for clarity sake is being pro American equal to being pro Macedonian?
I said the west wishes to paint us all as backwards Slavs. It is a broad racist comment that is constantly hurled at us because we mindlessly spew Pro Russian garbage that makes us look like we are either servile to them or the same people. Do you think we are the same people?

We are not Slavs. Or do you disagree with that?

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Also what makes you think Slavs are backwards? Thatís a very broad racist comment? Is not racism associated with backwardness? This is a very American way of thinking?

The world need not be uni polar?
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Old 10-01-2018, 08:01 PM   #24
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Slavs are niggers from a western perspective. Nothing less. Worse yet, while African slaves only suffered for 200 years, we copped it for 500 years. Our traditional music paints our pain just as much as the amazing African American blues artists. I despise the term "slavs" in the Western perspective.
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Old 10-01-2018, 09:29 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Slavs are niggers from a western perspective. Nothing less. Worse yet, while African slaves only suffered for 200 years, we copped it for 500 years. Our traditional music paints our pain just as much as the amazing African American blues artists. I despise the term "slavs" in the Western perspective.
Yeah pretty much this.

Just look at hard working Poles in the UK, they get treated like garbage and racially abused. They are good hard working people, yet ironically muslims, indians and pakis are treated much better than them.

Eastern europeans are just second class citizens in the EU, only seen as plumbers, drunkards, peasants and prostitutes - and exploited.
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Old 10-13-2018, 12:02 AM   #26
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The Constantinople patriarchate, whose head Bartholomew I is considered the “first among equals” of Orthodox church leaders, said on Thursday night it would recognise two breakaway churches in Ukraine and called on them to unite into an independent nationwide church

Russia warns of schism in Orthodox Christianity after Ukrainian church granted independence

URL:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...urch-granted1/

The Russian church has warned that a decision to recognise Ukrainian denominations that broke away from its control could provoke a schism within Orthodox Christianity.

The Constantinople patriarchate, whose head Bartholomew I is considered the “first among equals” of Orthodox church leaders, said on Thursday night it would recognise two breakaway churches in Ukraine and called on them to unite into an independent nationwide church.

Amid a simmering conflict with Kremlin-backed separatists, Kiev has sought to counter Russian influence over the millions of Ukrainians who worship with the country's largest Orthodox denomination, which remains loyal to the Moscow patriarchate.

President Petro Poroshenko, who requested Bartholomew's backing for an autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox church this spring, called the decision a “guarantee of our spiritual freedom”.

It will also probably boost his ratings before the election next year.

But the symbolic win for Ukraine has brought on a crisis pitting the Russian denomination, which counts about half the world's Orthodox believers among its flock, against the tiny Istanbul-based church which has traditionally led the faith.

Russian Patriarch Kirill has threatened to break off eucharistical relations with Constantinople if it recognised a Ukrainian church. His spokesman said after the decision the Constantinople patriarchate had crossed a red line and “set itself against Orthodox Christianity around the world”.

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate said Constantinople was “deliberately starting down the path of a schism”. It will continue to consider the two Ukrainian breakaway churches heretics, it added.

Vladimir Putin's spokesman said the Kremlin was “extremely concerned” about a possible schism. He warned that Russia would “defend the interests of Orthodox believers” in Ukraine in case of “illegal actions”, echoing Mr Putin's promise to protect Russian speakers when he annexed Crimea.

The Moscow patriarchate has said independence for a Ukrainian church would cause disputes over its monasteries in the country.

It will officially respond to Thursday's decision after a meeting of its synod in Minsk next week.

Russia has held sway over the Ukrainian church since 1686, when the Constantinople patriarch gave it the right to appoint the metropolitan of Kiev, which had recently come under control of the tsar.

Ukrainian leaders have promised to prevent any aggression over the changes while forging ahead with the formation of a unified church.

Patriarch Filaret said he would hold a council with the Autocephalous Church, which like his Kiev patriarchate split off from Moscow in the 1990s, to choose a leader for the new Ukrainian denomination.

Bartholomew had on Thursday reinstated Filaret and the head of the Autocephalous Church, Makariy, following their excommunication by Moscow years ago.

Both Filaret and President Poroshenko said Ukrainians would be allowed to continue worshipping in Moscow-aligned churches.

“The unification will only be voluntary,” Filaret told reporters, saying he didn't want to give Moscow an “excuse to intrude in our internal affairs”.

Bartholomew on Thursday called on followers to “avoid appropriation of churches, monasteries and other properties”.

But creating an independent church in the fractured religious landscape of Ukraine could prove thorny despite the calls for tolerance.

Filaret's Kiev patriarchate has previously claimed the 11th century Kiev Monastery of the Caves, a popular destination for tourists and pilgrims, and the Holy Dormition Monastery in Pochayiv, which are both under control of the Moscow-aligned church.

The Russian church underwent a major schism in the 17th century, when the reforms of Patriarch Nikon were rejected by many clergy. To this day, far-flung communities of Old Believers continue to follow the rituals that the mainstream church abolished centuries ago.



Moscow Calls Independent Ukrainian Church US-Backed 'Provocation'
URL:
https://www.voanews.com/a/moscow-cal...-/4611972.html

Russia's top diplomat on Friday called the Ecumenical Patriarchate's decision to recognize the Ukrainian Orthodox Church's independence from Moscow a Washington-backed "provocation," from which he vowed to protect "the faithful" in Ukraine if the schism sparks violence.


Coverage in Macedonian:
https://time.mk/c/af421b34d5/lavrov-...d-amerika.html


So, if a big schism is about to take place in Orthodox Christianity who will be the "true" Orthodox church, and who will be the "new" schismatics/heretics? Those who follow/side with Constantinople or the Russian Orthodox Church?

(The Serbian church and Vraniskovski will easily and immediately side with the Russians. Book it.)

Last edited by Carlin15; 10-13-2018 at 01:12 AM.
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:22 PM   #27
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Russian Orthodox Church cuts ties with Constantinople

URL:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...constantinople

The Russian Orthodox Church has announced it will break off relations with the Patriarchate of Constantinople in a religious schism driven by political friction between Russia and Ukraine.

The Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church elected on Monday to cut ties with the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, which is viewed as the leading authority for the worldís 300 million Orthodox worshippers.

The split is a show of force by Russia after a Ukrainian church was granted independence.
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:42 PM   #28
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Just goes to show that these "churches" are still nothing more than political organisations that thirst for power.

btw, what is the actual history of the Ukrainian church? Is it comparable to MOC? Did they actually face injustice from the ROC like we do with the SOC?
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:56 PM   #29
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Just goes to show that these "churches" are still nothing more than political organisations that thirst for power.

btw, what is the actual history of the Ukrainian church? Is it comparable to MOC? Did they actually face injustice from the ROC like we do with the SOC?
A key point at issue is an event that happened in 1686, giving Moscow authority over the metropolitan see of Kiev. Before that the Kiev church had answered only to Constantinople. For the Russians, the 1686 act settles the matter: their Patriarchate is the only legal authority in Ukraine, and if that country were ever to have an independent church, it could only be granted by Moscow. Ukrainians say the 1686 pronouncement was made under duress and they challenge its legitimacy.

Patriarch Bartholomew said on July 1st that the transfer of authority to Moscow in 1686 had not been unconditional and that his own ancient see retained a legitimate interest in the affairs of Ukraine.

With the latest decision, Bartholomew essentially reverted and annulled the 1686 act.

https://www.economist.com/erasmus/20...lden-to-moscow

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyivan Patriarchate effectively declared itself independent from Moscow in 1992, and is considered by the Russian Church to be a schismatic group. Until now, the other Orthodox Churches have recognized Ukraine as under Moscow’s jurisdiction and honored the excommunication. The Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, re-founded in 1990, is similarly seen as a breakaway group.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/n...s-moscow-25047
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