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Old 08-12-2010, 09:43 AM   #41
makedonin
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Epirot,

you quoted:

Quote:
all Shiptars [derogatory term for ethnic Albanians-tr.]
Why do you consider the Shiptars as derogatory term?

You among your self call your self Shqiptar some Shqiptare. Ok I admint there is the "q">"ch" character which is missing in Shiptar, but that is normal lose of a consonant during language shift. In Macedonian this word is foreign, thus that is why it loses the "q">"ch" character. It is similar to you calling us Maqedon in your own language while in our language it is Makedonec!

So I am wondering about your explaination why you consider your own name as derogatory?

I know that I can say the following things in Albanian, which are perfectly normal, and not considered derogatory:

Question: A je Shqiptar? > Are you Albanian?
Answear: Po Shqiptar or Un jam Shqiptar. > I am Albanian.
Flet shqip? or A di shqip? > Do you speak Albanian?


So why are you offenced by being called Shiptar?
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Old 08-12-2010, 10:00 AM   #42
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Imagine if you were an Albanian of Aracinovo. Aracinovo is surrounded on all sides by large bands of paramilitaries. Your kids, your innocent family is inside critic zone. You wouldn't hesitate to save your family...but you will be killed if you try to help them. And if you persist to protect your family let suppose you kill one of paramilitaries. They will revenge to kill 100 or 50 other Albanian.
A blatant fabrication.

To begin with, Aracinovo was not surrounded by a paramilitary. Therefore, that excerpt you provided bears no significance no relevance to the actual situation, since the 'paramilitary' who's excerpt you have quoted, held no bearing over the situation which you are describing.


The 400 KLA terrorists who had retreated to Aracinovo and simultaneously threatened that one of their cells would bomb populated areas in Skopje, were later transported by buses and given amnesty, and were in fact surrounded by the official army of the Republic of Macedonia. Many of the soldiers themselves, were Albanians.

All citizens were required and free to evacuate what had become a war zone, most of whom did.

Your attempt to re-write the history of what actually transpired, will not fly.

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Old 08-12-2010, 10:27 AM   #43
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Something more on Aracinovo:

Quote:
The message was made clear in May, when U.S. diplomat Robert Fenwick, ostensibly the head of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, in Macedonia, met secretly in Prizren, Kosovo, with the leaders of the Albanian political parties and KLA representatives. Macedonian officials were not invited. It was clear the United States was backing the Albanian terrorist cause. This was confirmed a month later, when a force of 400 KLA fighters was surrounded in the town of Aracinovo near the capital, Skopje. As Macedonian security forces moved in, they were halted on NATO orders.

U.S. army buses from Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo arrived to remove all the heavily armed terrorists to a safer area of Macedonia. German reporters later revealed that 17 U.S. military advisors were accompanying the KLA terrorists in Aracinovo.

In August, fearing the Macedonian forces might be able to defeat the KLA, U.S. Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice flew to Kiev and ordered the Ukrainian government to stop sending further military equipment to Macedonia. Since Ukraine was the only country supplying Macedonia with military assistance, the Macedonians realized continued resistance against the KLA terrorists, the EU and NATO was futile. Macedonia was forced to concede defeat and obliged to accept all the terrorist demands. When the peace treaty was signed, Lord Robertson proclaimed, "This day marks the entry of Macedonia into modern, mainstream Europe ... a very proud day for their country."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BIS111A.html
A proud day for our country, my ass....
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Old 08-13-2010, 02:21 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
OK, then I will ask for the second time, show me an ethnic Albanian in Macedonia that has come out in support of Macedonian integrity where it concerns the national name of the country? Who among your people has said "we will never give up the name of the country in which we live"? On the other hand, you'd be aware of the claim to some fantasy "Illirida", wouldn't you?
As far as I know political parties of Albanians in Macedonia asked that Albanians should not be neglected in name's issue. If Albanians won't be ignored this does not mean that they support Greece. It is important that Albanians of Macedonia do not stand in Greek line to vanish from earth face the name of Macedonia.

Quote:
Originally posted by SoM

the ethnic Albanian minority in Macedonia. Your people do not have the right to negotiate on Macedonia's name.
For long time as Republic of Macedonia is state of all its citizens (despite of their nationality), all ethnic groups have their right to protect Macedonia. If my people have no right to negotiate on Macedonia's name, then where the hell you get the right to negotiate Macedonia's name? For what reason you dare to negotiate Macedonia's name? It is really disaster to sell our house's name (I mean house of all ethnic groups of Macedonia) in supermarket only because Greece wish so!!! Macedonia's name is something that cannot be negotiated! Is it hard to understand such a simple thing?!

Quote:
Originally posted by SoM

What are you talking about? What heresy? I asked you to prove your assertion with some evidence, because there was talk in the past that Kosovo may not recognise Macedonia by its official name.
Calm down SoM! I understand that in past there were many misunderstandings but now there is no room to be worried about Macedonia's constitutional name by Kosova's side.

Quote:
Originally posted by SoM

Both can only be considered as a lesser evil than Greece and Bulgaria.
I'd like to cite something from Sergio Leone's movie:

"Tut, tut. Such ingratitude after all the times I saved your life."

When Greece expelled thousands of Aegean Macedonians, Albania open its doors to those refugees, gave them lands, houses, etc. Albania state during Enver Hoxha's rule condemn fascist campaigns of Greece against native people of Aegean Macedonia.

Quote:
Macedonians of Albania are an officially recognized ethnic minority in Albania[3][4]. In the 1989 census, 4,697[5] people declared themselves Macedonian. The condition of the Macedonian population living in the Prespa area is described in positive terms and particular praise is given since all the villages of the area have classes in their mother tongue. [6] .[7]

Minority Rights in Albania, page 3 - Albanian Helsinki Committee, September 1999
Quote:
There is a general high school in Liqenas, one eight-year school in Dolna Gorica and six elementary schools in Djellas, Lajthize, Zaroshke, Gorna Gorica, Kallamas and Globočani. There are eight-year schools at the two biggest villages of the commune, Liqenas and Gorice e Madhe, where 20 percent of the texts are held at the mother tongue language. At the centre of the commune there is a high school as well. The history of the Macedonian people is a special subject at the school. All minority schools have twin partnerships with counterparts in Macedonia.[13] All the teaching personnel is local and with the proper education.[14]
Now I would ask you: Why Macedonia do not permit Albanians to have their schools in Veles, Ohrid and Monastir?

Quote:
Originally posted by SoM

Do you want to compare this with the ethnic Albanian terrorists' desecration of Macedonian bodies, and their glorification of that act?
You're trying to maximize Macedonian victims and simultaneously to minimize Albanian victims! Why all foreign sources makes known that most of victims in this war were Albanian civilians?

Quote:
Originally posted by SoM

What you have said is absolutely pathetic, and I am troubled by the fact that a 'moderate' like you would speak like this
Anti-Albanian position of many Macedonians goes in favour of Greece because Greece is attempting to make enmity between Macedonians and Albanians. Don't forget that it is your fault (I mean of Macedonian side) for everything that may happen in future since you must understand that Macedonia's danger is not in Albanians but in Greece.
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Old 08-13-2010, 02:41 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogi View Post
He is no moderate, not by a long shot.

He is an extremist of the most dangerous kind in every sense of the word, attempting to shroud his racist, extremist and secessionist views with a diplomatic double-speak. He has been unsuccessful in his endeavour here.
How do you know that I am not moderate when we never chatted before in any thread in MTO? Have you telepathic skills?

You're trying to make a trial of me here in forum...and you dare to judge me as extremist, racist? What's your problem buddy?
You have not not a clue who I am...so everything you guess is just a dirty speculation.

Racist!? And you base this accuse on what? I never have been racist toward Macedonian people. Actually I do not agree in general with Macedonian nationalistic official policy but this does not lead me to hate Macedonians as a people. Allow me to use a leftist terminology: 'Political class cannot serve as index of a people'.

I would like to hear from TrueMacedonian his opinion if I am racist? I appeared for some time in 'Maknews' forum with 'Arvanit' as a nickname and I did support with many accounts existence of Macedonians as a distinct people during XIX century:

http://www.maknews.com/forum/macedon...ne-t12823.html

Quote:
One hundred and ten and more (110+) years ago, the Albanians were largely known as the Ottoman vassals, doing the dirty work of the Ottomans, raiding, razing and pillaging many Macedonian villages, killing many Macedonians.
Don't gibberish more! Do you understand that you make sick everybody who reads your comment, don't you?
Every people in Balkans were for 5 centuries vassals of Ottomans. Every people in Balkans corroborated with them with no exception. Take aside your nationalistic behavior that your side was 'angle' and others were nothing more nothing less than a devils. Albanians were enemies of Ottomans and our history is full of struggles, uprisings and revolts against Ottomans. Albanians participated and did their best in struggles of their neighbors against Ottomans:

1) Albanians sided with Serbs during First Serbian Uprising in beginning of XIX century against Ottomans!

2) Albanians fought for Romanian autonomy.

3) Albanians were the greatest soldiers of 'Revolution Wars' in today what is called wrongly Greece

4) Albanians were allies of Macedonians in Krusheva's Uprising!
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Old 08-13-2010, 02:53 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makedonin View Post

Why do you consider the Shiptars as derogatory term?

So I am wondering about your explaination why you consider your own name as derogatory?

So why are you offenced by being called Shiptar?
Good question...

Indeed Albanians call themselves as 'Shqiptar'. Some argues that this term begun after XIX century but I won't expand its historical origin since it's off topic. So 'Shqiptar' is an autonym or endonym.

The intentionally corrupted form 'Shiptar' is used by Milloshevic's followers against Albanians. Such a derogatory term rooted in Serbia plans for 'Greater Serbia'. All of its propaganda was full of using such a term in order to insult publicly Albanians. During Tito's Yugoslavia Albanians were called officially (by Yugoslav peoples) 'Albanac' but never 'Shiptari'. That's why is very offending for Albanians to deform 'Shqiptar' name.
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Old 08-15-2010, 08:16 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirot
As far as I know political parties of Albanians in Macedonia asked that Albanians should not be neglected in name's issue.
Albanians have no relevance in Macedonia's national name. Don't overvalue them for nothing.
Quote:
It is important that Albanians of Macedonia do not stand in Greek line to vanish from earth face the name of Macedonia.
But the ethnic Albanians in Macedonia do exactly that with their continual disrespect for the Macedonian state and people.
Quote:
If my people have no right to negotiate on Macedonia's name, then where the hell you get the right to negotiate Macedonia's name?
That's a matter for Macedonians to sort out, like I told you before, Albanians have no relevance in Macedonia's national name.
Quote:
When Greece expelled thousands of Aegean Macedonians, Albania open its doors to those refugees, gave them lands, houses, etc. Albania state during Enver Hoxha's rule condemn fascist campaigns of Greece against native people of Aegean Macedonia.
When Macedonia opened its doors to Kosovo refugees, they started a war. They never should have let them in, instead, Albania should have accepted every one of them like they apparently accepted Macedonians fleeing from the Greek civil war.
Quote:
Why Macedonia do not permit Albanians to have their schools in Veles, Ohrid and Monastir?
Because they are a minority, that is why you don't have Macedonian-speaking schools all over Albania. Macedonia is not only a Macedonian majority, it is the nation-state and national home of all Macedonians across the world. Something like how Albania is for Albanians. Macedonia will never be another Kosovo 'project', Macedonians should and will decide the fate of Macedonia; get that through your head and start respecting our state the way other minorities do.
Quote:
Albanians were allies of Macedonians in Krusheva's Uprising!
You've already been told about not using your Albanised 'versions' of Macedonian name for places within the Macedonian Republic, don't insult the Macedonian people in that way.

Which Albanians were allies of Macedonians in Krushevo? Those from Aldanci? What did they do? How did they help? In which way did they respond to the Macedonian call to arms against the Ottomans? I would argue that a significant amount more Albanians fought against the Macedonians as filthy bashibozok mercenaries. Do you dispute this?
Quote:
Indeed Albanians call themselves as 'Shqiptar'. Some argues that this term begun after XIX century but I won't expand its historical origin since it's off topic.
From the 14th century, really? I wasn't aware of that, do you have any evidence?
Quote:
During Tito's Yugoslavia Albanians were called officially (by Yugoslav peoples) 'Albanac' but never 'Shiptari'. That's why is very offending for Albanians to deform 'Shqiptar' name.
We can produce a youtube clip from Macedonian TV during the early days of Tito's Yugoslavia where the people of Macedonia are referred to as Makedonci, Shiptari, Turci i Vlasi. There was no ill-intention in the broadcast, so it looks like it was acceptable to Albanians. So was Arnauti. Did it become an insult because some people made a play on words? Is that all it took?
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Old 08-16-2010, 08:36 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Albanians have no relevance in Macedonia's national name. Don't overvalue them for nothing.
And why they have no relevance in Macedonia's national name? If Macedonia's constitution declare itself as a state of all its citizens (despite their ethnic background) why Albanians have no relevance in that matter? I say repeatedly that Macedonia's name should not be negotiated with Greece. End of story.

Quote:
But the ethnic Albanians in Macedonia do exactly that with their continual disrespect for the Macedonian state and people.
That is a matter of an opinion, not a matter of a fact. Is not a disrespect of Constitution when you claim that Albanians have no relevance in Macedonia's name, is it?

Quote:
When Macedonia opened its doors to Kosovo refugees, they started a war.
All of Kosova refugees went at homes of their Albanian brethren mainly in Western Macedonia. I don't know if any Albanian went in Eastern Macedonia.

Quote:
Because they are a minority, that is why you don't have Macedonian-speaking schools all over Albania.
...and how the hell can we open Macedonian-speaking schools in regions that there is no Macedonian??. Should we open Macedonian-speaking schools in Vlorė, Shkodėr or Gjirokastėr? There are Macedonian-speaking schools in regions they make up the majority of population like in Prespa e Vogėl.
I said it should be open Albanian-speaking schools in Veles, Monastir, Ohrid and not in Gevgelija, Kavadarci or Negotino.

Quote:
You've already been told about not using your Albanised 'versions' of Macedonian name for places within the Macedonian Republic, don't insult the Macedonian people in that way.
It shame on you to say that I insulted Macedonian people! I never disputed their identity as being Macedonians. I never call them with derogatory terms that Macedonians are insulted across Greek and Bulgarian propaganda in internet. Furthermore, I supported with a plenty of XIX-th century documents providing a distinct Macedonian identity. See the below link when I appeared with 'Arvanit' nickname: http://www.maknews.com/forum/macedon...ne-t12823.html

We Albanians do not use suffixes like -o. For example we do not say: Gjakovo but Gjakova. It just a phonetical matter nothing more nothing less.

And why you keep using Serbianized versions of Albanian names like:

Quote:
When Macedonia opened its doors to Kosovo refugees, they started a war.
Quote:
Macedonians should and will decide the fate of Macedonia; get that through your head and start respecting our state the way other minorities do.
Yes but Macedonians cannot decide the fate of Macedonia if they treat Albanians with the paramilitary mentality as they did in 2001.

Quote:
Which Albanians were allies of Macedonians in Krushevo? Those from Aldanci? What did they do? How did they help? In which way did they respond to the Macedonian call to arms against the Ottomans? I would argue that a significant amount more Albanians fought against the Macedonians as filthy bashibozok mercenaries. Do you dispute this?
Are you freaking kidding me?
We have already discussed about this matter. If Albanians fought against Macedonians, then please explain me why Albanians have 20 seats in Krusheva Assembly?

Quote:
We can produce a youtube clip from Macedonian TV during the early days of Tito's Yugoslavia where the people of Macedonia are referred to as Makedonci, Shiptari, Turci i Vlasi. There was no ill-intention in the broadcast, so it looks like it was acceptable to Albanians.
During Tito's Yugoslavia Albanians were officially called 'Albanaci' never 'Shiptari'. 'Shiptari' became derogatory when Milloshevic rose in power.
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:02 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirot
And why they have no relevance in Macedonia's national name?
Because Macedonia is not their national homeland, Macedonia does not mean for all Albanians that which it means for all Macedonians.
Quote:
That is a matter of an opinion, not a matter of a fact.
I've used the phrase myself. No, it's not an opinion, ethnic Albanian disrespect for the Macedonian state takes place daily. I told you before not to pretend being naive, you need to get out of your shell and accept the truth about what your people actually do in states they live in.
Quote:
Is not a disrespect of Constitution when you claim that Albanians have no relevance in Macedonia's name, is it?
What constitution? The one which was criminally changed because terrorists from your ethnicity decided to start murdering Macedonian security forces and provoking a war? You're joking, right?
Quote:
All of Kosova refugees went at homes of their Albanian brethren mainly in Western Macedonia.
The Macedonian state housed and fed them at the border before some of them began to spread into the domains of their 'brethren', the act crippled an already fragile Macedonia, and Macedonians paid the price for being generous to a largely ungrateful horde of terrorists. When Albania began turning the Kosovo refugees away, Macedonia remained open. For what, to lose the sovereignty of our state to your people? Macedonia should have locked her borders shut, and let your 'brethren' in Albania take care of your people from Kosovo.
Quote:
I said it should be open Albanian-speaking schools in Veles, Monastir, Ohrid and not in Gevgelija, Kavadarci or Negotino.
Yeah...I don't think so. You people are hostile towards the Macedonian state, the Macedonian people and the Macedonian language, you have already achieved things beyond a reasonable level which you will not sustain, I wouldn't be reaching out too far. If large segments of the Macedonian community in Albania became gun-totting terrorists and extremists that think they can live above the law, I am positive that Albania would not allow them to establish Macedonian schools, even if the population of Tirana was 20% Macedonian.
Quote:
I never disputed their identity as being Macedonians. I never call them with derogatory terms that Macedonians are insulted across Greek and Bulgarian propaganda in internet.
I haven't seen you do that on any public forum, but you're applying Albanised 'versions' of Macedonian names for places within the Macedonian Republic. After what your people did and tried to do to the Macedonian state in 2000-2001, you can hardly blame any Macedonian for not wanting to see Macedonian placenames 'Albanised' to Tetova, Krusheva, etc. So please oblige by referring to Macedonian placenames in the Macedonian state by their Macedonian names. You don't see me referring to Berat in Albania by its original name of Belgrad, do you?
Quote:
We Albanians do not use suffixes like -o. For example we do not say: Gjakovo but Gjakova. It just a phonetical matter nothing more nothing less.
The suffixes that begin with 'ov' and 'ev' belong to Macedonian and other Slavic languages, and are not native to Albanian. All you do is change the final letter to an 'a' or 'e', otherwise, it remains an essentially Slavic suffix. I will respect Albanian (and even Albanised) placenames in Albania, don't expect the same for Kosovo, which, by the way, is not the 'Serbianised' way but the original Slavic pronounciation of the word. What is the Albanian name for the region which has a meaning in the Albanian tongue?
Quote:
Furthermore, I supported with a plenty of XIX-th century documents providing a distinct Macedonian identity.
I think you will find that we have also provided plenty of information about your people, particularly in Greece. I notice you keep sticking to the XIXth century, do you not consider the Macedonians to exist prior to this time?
Quote:
Yes but Macedonians cannot decide the fate of Macedonia if they treat Albanians with the paramilitary mentality as they did in 2001.
If some Albanians were treated in a certain way, it was because their people murdered innocent Macedonians and provoked a war in Macedonia. If they do the same in future, I only hope that the Macedonian security forces will have the nerve to address the situation immediately and eliminate the terrorist threat definitively. Otherwise, the ethnic Albanian minority in Macedonia can start behaving like other civilised people and grow as a minority in a country they respect, and not a country they want to segregate.
Quote:
Are you freaking kidding me?
What exactly is freaking you out? Are you trying to deny the significant Albanian element in the Ottoman bashibozok mercenaries that raped the Balkans, particularly during the 19th and 20th centuries? Is this news to you?
Quote:
If Albanians fought against Macedonians, then please explain me why Albanians have 20 seats in Krusheva Assembly?
Use the correct Macedonian suffix. You persistence is becoming offensive, and I hope this will be the last time I have to remind you about common courtesy. What evidence do you have of 20 Albanian seats in the Krushevo Assembly? Vasil Kanchov himself limits the number of Albanians in Krushevo to about 400, all of them Christians, do you dispute this?
Quote:
During Tito's Yugoslavia Albanians were officially called 'Albanaci' never 'Shiptari'. 'Shiptari' became derogatory when Milloshevic rose in power.
Check the following clip from about 10 seconds, it's a Macedonian newsreel from the 'Peoples Republic of Macedonia' and in it reference is clearly made to 'Shiptari' without being considered derogatory.

YouTube - People's Republic of Macedonia (post-WWII newsreel)
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:19 AM   #50
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SoM, you have stated everything very clearly and articulated the facts, and this is something that he will not grasp. Well said bratko.
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