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[cultea]

don't forget the authorities won't allow you to get a job unless you change your name & it is a greek one.

Of course not. These names were changed in the 1910s and 1920s.

WEll today it doesn't matter as there are no jobs.

Yes, there are.

The greeks know who to give the jobs to if there were any that is to real greeks.

Since mid-90s jobs in the public sector are given with very strict objective criteria, to avoid political favouritism. Actually, the process is so strict and objective that has lead to new unexpected problems, being extremely inessential, impractical and bureaucratic.

Also to get apassport one needs to have a greek name as they will not issue one with a macedonian one.

What bullshit! Where did you get that idea?

Another reason to change your name is if your kids go to school they have to be presented as greeks.

Uh, no. The schools are full of immigrants’ kids with foreign names. Actually the law protects the children of the illegal immigrants.

Definitely the greek church will not allow batising with macedonian names.

You can always use ancient Macedonian names, which (according to you) are not... Greek. Church uses Christian names (in their Greek version). If you are American, Russian or Greek you will not be baptised as John, Johnny, Ivan, Jovan, Yiannis, Yiannakis, but as Ioannis. Orthodox Church doesn't have strict rules about anything, so it always depends on the Priest.
What kind of Christian-Macedonian name is Pando? Where is it derived from? Is it related to Pantelehemon?

[makgerman]

Well, to say the truth, by the greek law now, somebody can register whatever name he/she likes for their children in the state municipality books and also more than just one name. The problem is the greek church that will not go on with the baptism of a child if the name is not greek.

Vodenka, does every Macedonian need to be christened in Greece if a Greek priest refuses to fulfill the parent's wishes? What's wrong with going over the border to a Macedonian church and getting christened by a Macedonian priest. There is nothing to be ashamed of!

I know it may not be the usual thing to do but what if there are no other alternatives. My grandparents were christened under Macedonian names as it did not bother the Turks however my parents, uncles, aunties and a few cousins had no other option.

I don't believe the Greek government can forbid it as I know for a fact that there are many Greeks that have not been christened under a Greek name in the western countries, eg Australia, US, Canada etc.

[cultea]

They don't have to cross the borders, because there's already a section of the Macedonian Orthodox Church in Greece (under Father Tsaknias). People should collectively move to that Church. It is considered Schismatic but relations with Schismatic Churches (e.g. Armenian, Old-Calendar etc) are very good, and their people will never have any practical problems. E.g. marriages of mixed couples are common and easy.
The Christian name has nothing to do with the Government and a citizen’s name. Church is conservative/ traditional and dislikes bizarre, original and foreign or not Christian names. It also disapproves Nature names (Lemonia, Triantaphylia, Garyphalia, Moschoula!), but they are not rare especially in villages. As I said there are no strict rules.
Give me some examples of non-Greek names under which Greeks were christened abroad. (Hard to believe it)
Also, give me some examples of Macedonian names that are not acceptable here.

[vodenka]

Vodenka, does every Macedonian need to be christened in Greece if a Greek priest refuses to fulfill the parent's wishes? What's wrong with going over the border to a Macedonian church and getting christened by a Macedonian priest. There is nothing to be ashamed of!

I know it may not be the usual thing to do but what if there are no other alternatives. My grandparents were christened under Macedonian names as it did not bother the Turks however my parents, uncles, aunties and a few cousins had no other option.

I don't believe the Greek government can forbid it as I know for a fact that there are many Greeks that have not been christened under a Greek name in the western countries, eg Australia, US, Canada etc.

You are right 100%. Macedonians in Egejska now have some choices about the names of their children. They can declare the name they wish to the municipality records. After that, they may not christen their chilldren or they can cross the border and do that in a macedonian orthodox church or even better they can go to Sveta Zlata to Father Tsarnias to do the blessing. The same goes for weddings. Someone can get married at the municipality and after get the blessing in the church of his/her choice.

[makgerman]

Originally Posted by George S.
Also to get apassport one needs to have a greek name as they will not issue one with a macedonian one.

What bullshit! Where did you get that idea?

As I have already stated my father like my other relatives were christened with Greek names by racist Greek priests.
They all use their Macedonian names now as they have all emigrated overseas. Now if my dad applies for a Greek passport - will the Greek government issue it to him under his real name or under the Greek name the priest chose? I'd find it hard to believe they would.

Following the Greek Civil War and ten years after being released from a Greek jail (for no crime whatsoever) we got my grandfather to come to live with us in Macedonia. The racist Greeks had his name and surname written in a Greek and not in Macedonian on his passport. This is around fifty years ago and I wouldn't be surprised if they would do the same if he was still alive.

You can always use ancient Macedonian names, which (according to you) are not... Greek. Church uses Christian names (in their Greek version). If you are American, Russian or Greek you will not be baptised as John, Johnny, Ivan, Jovan, Yiannis, Yiannakis, but as Ioannis.

Macedonian names were not Greek!

Why should the church use Christian names in Greek version only?

If I was American, Russian, Macedonian, Croatian, German, Dutch I can call myself John, Johhny, Ivan, Jovan, Johan even Yiannis, Yiannakis or Ioannis and no one would object to it as it will be my choice.
However if I was Greek then I would have the Greek options only.

Orthodox Church doesn't have strict rules about anything, so it always depends on the Priest.

Why should it depend on the Priest? Who gives him the right to tell me what I should call my children? Then again it is acceptable by the most democratic country in the world - the Modern Hellass??

What kind of Christian-Macedonian name is Pando? Where is it derived from? Is it related to Pantelehemon?

Pando is not related to Pantelehemon. Pando is an old Macedonian name that was common before the TurcoGreeks migrated to Macedonia from Asia Minor. Pando Klashev was a Macedonian revolutionary born in 1882 in a Kostur village who fought against the Turks. Pando Djikov another Macedonian was also born in 1906 in Chegal before the Civil War. Pando Djakov (Peter Daicos' uncle) is another Macedonian from Banica who played for Preston Lions in Melbourne.

Give me some examples of non-Greek names under which Greeks were christened abroad. (Hard to believe it)

Example on a Greek website where names like Alice, Karen, Tytee, Ksenija, Jenny, Alice, Rachael, Melisa, Sam, Sergey, Duana don't sound Greek to me http://www.greek-names.info/greek-surnames/

Also, give me some examples of Macedonian names that are not acceptable here.

Naca becomes Anastasia, Vasil becomes Vassilis, Pavle becomes Pavlos, Aleksandar becomes Alexandros, Kosta becomes Kostas etc. The Greeks don't own those names!

[cultea]

As I have already stated my father like my other relatives were christened with Greek names by racist Greek priests.
They all use their Macedonian names now as they have all emigrated overseas. Now if my dad applies for a Greek passport - will the Greek government issue it to him under his real name or under the Greek name the priest chose? I'd find it hard to believe they would.

Your father was a Greek citizen who emigrated and then changed his name abroad? Shouldn't he already have a Greek passport? If he changed his name legally, as many Greeks do in USA, I think he will get a new Greek passport with his new (non Greek) name.

Following the Greek Civil War and ten years after being released from a Greek jail (for no crime whatsoever) we got my grandfather to come to live with us in Macedonia. The racist Greeks had his name and surname written in a Greek and not in Macedonian on his passport. This is around fifty years ago and I wouldn't be surprised if they would do the same if he was still alive.

Your grandfather was also a Greek citizen and his name was changed in 1910s or 1920s or it was his father's name that changed before he was born. Of course that was his name, so... that name was written in his passport. Tell us more on why he was imprisoned for no crime whatsoever.

Macedonian names were not Greek!

Really? So, use them.

Why should the church use Christian names in Greek version only?

If I was American, Russian, Macedonian, Croatian, German, Dutch I can call myself John, Johhny, Ivan, Jovan, Johan even Yiannis, Yiannakis or Ioannis and no one would object to it as it will be my choice.
However if I was Greek then I would have the Greek options only.

Because it's the Greek Church. What does the Russian Church do?

Why should it depend on the Priest? Who gives him the right to tell me what I should call my children? Then again it is acceptable by the most democratic country in the world - the Modern Hellass??

The Priest gives the name that (typically) the Godfather tells him. Now, if the name is uncommon, bizarre, not Christian or Greek there may be a problem. But it would depend on the flexibility of the specific Priest.

Pando is not related to Pantelehemon. Pando is an old Macedonian name that was common before the TurcoGreeks migrated to Macedonia from Asia Minor. Pando Klashev was a Macedonian revolutionary born in 1882 in a Kostur village who fought against the Turks. Pando Djikov another Macedonian was also born in 1906 in Chegal before the Civil War. Pando Djakov (Peter Daicos' uncle) is another Macedonian from Banica who played for Preston Lions in Melbourne.

That's not a good answer. In the last century these people would be christened in the Greek Orthodox Church or in the Bulgarian Exarchate. In both cases Pando should have been a Christian name (i.e. the name of a Saint) or have a long tradition, a meaning, an etymology. It sounds as a diminutive name and (in short) you have no idea what kind of name or word it is.

Example on a Greek website where names like Alice, Karen, Tytee, Ksenija, Jenny, Alice, Rachael, Melisa, Sam, Sergey, Duana don't sound Greek to me http://www.greek-names.info/greek-surnames/

These are mostly foreign names that Greeks of diaspora took abroad (not in Greek Orthodox Churches). Now, if they try to give the above names in Church:
Alice (French from Adelais) would be Aliki or Alexandra
Karen (a Danish form of Catherine) would be Ekaterini
Tytee (rather Teti) is a common diminutive from Constantina
Ksenija is common in Greece as Xenia, Xeni, Xanthippe
Jenny is a diminutive from Eugenia (or even Ioanna)
Rachael is a biblical name, common and accepted as it is
Melissa is of Greek origin (=honey bee), but uncommon in Greece as a name. It would be Melissanthe
Sam is from Samuel (a biblical name, common and accepted as it is) or Samantha
Sergey is of a Russian Saint, accepted in Greece as Sergios
Duana is the feminine of Duane (a Celtish name) I’ve no idea what they can do with it. There’s nothing relevant in Greek

Naca becomes Anastasia, Vasil becomes Vassilis, Pavle becomes Pavlos, Aleksandar becomes Alexandros, Kosta becomes Kostas etc. The Greeks don't own those names!

They don’t BECOME. They COME from them.
Vasilios, Alexandros, Anastasia are original Greek names (with specific meanings and etymology)
Pavlos, Constantinos are original Latin names (slightly Hellenized)

[vodenka]

In Greece, the european country of real fascism and christian fundamentalism, greek citizens have NO CHOICE but have greek names in their greek documents. Full stop.
There are some cases like greeks of Armenian origin who have in their documents armenian names, but usually have aslo a second greek name which they use in their everyday life, and only if a official document is needed, than the foreign name appears.

[George S.]

cultea so i can cross the border to greece & declare that i'm macedonian ,start talking in macedonian ,sing,& dance & nothing is going to happen to me.Are you trying to say that we are out of touch & the greeks aren't racist anymore???Aloso is greece recognizing it's macedonian(endopi) citizens.??

[cultea]

In Greece, the european country of real fascism and christian fundamentalism, greek citizens have NO CHOICE but have greek names in their greek documents. Full stop.
There are some cases like greeks of Armenian origin who have in their documents armenian names, but usually have aslo a second greek name which they use in their everyday life, and only if a official document is needed, than the foreign name appears.

What? Are you sure you live in Greece?
You can't Christen your child as Vodenka in Greek Orthodox Church, but you can name it so, in the Greek Registry.
I also believe that you CAN change your Greek surname to Vodenko, but maybe you have to try and see.

[lavce pelagonski]

Thessa just listen to the Macedonian radio maybe somewhere in your subconscious you will trigger something and snap out of this trance the Greeks have put you in.

[makgerman]

Your father was a Greek citizen who emigrated and then changed his name abroad? Shouldn't he already have a Greek passport? If he changed his name legally, as many Greeks do in USA, I think he will get a new Greek passport with his new (non Greek) name.

Do you really think so? My father didn't emigrate because he wanted to but ran away as a teenager over the border because of the hardships he and his family experienced prior to and during the HellAss Civil war. This happened an year before the Deca Begalci. He like just about every other Macedonian was stripped off their Greek citizenship not because he ran away or fought for his rights but because he is Macedonian. I don't have to repeat what many have already told you on other threads but your undemocratic government passed a law allowing all refugees to return to Greece provided they were "Greek by birth only". The same did not apply to "Macedonian by birth."

Now Cultea try to think a bit harder and ask yourself - would your greek government with an injust reputation towards the other ethnic groups in greece be prepared to issue greek Passports to Macedonians like my dad who wants to be identified as a Macedonian of Macedonian Ethnic Backrground with the name he wants to be called and not what the greek priest wrote on his birth certificate?

Your grandfather was also a Greek citizen and his name was changed in 1910s or 1920s or it was his father's name that changed before he was born. Of course that was his name, so... that name was written in his passport. Tell us more on why he was imprisoned for no crime whatsoever.

My grandfather was born before the greeks invaded Macedonia which was before the Balkan Wars. His name and all of my ancestors before him had Macedonian names. Thanks for admitting that your fellow greeks changed his name without his consent. My grandfather never broke the law nor did he commit a crime - the reason why he was imprisoned is because he had two sons in the war. He was considered as an enemy and a threat by the HellArse army.
During his time in prison one of his sons was captured by your heroes and spent 8 years in jail. The older son was killed just about the time my father ran away. And your people considered it a crime!

Really? So, use them.

My children have been christened by a Macedonian priest with the names that we chose. Our godfather gaves us five names to choose from. One of our kids has a Macedonian name whereas I have to admit that the other one sounds Scandinavian to me. Modern greeks who claim to be pure greek should use the Arvanti or Vlachs names as they suit them the most.

Because it's the Greek Church. What does the Russian Church do?

The Russians can call themselves whatever they please and the Russian Church can preach as much as it wishes to - noone gives a damn? You seem to forget that it wasn't that long ago when Russia was a socialist country the majority of the Christians and people of other religions were not ruled by the Ortohodox Church.

The Priest gives the name that (typically) the Godfather tells him. Now, if the name is uncommon, bizarre, not Christian or Greek there may be a problem. But it would depend on the flexibility of the specific Priest

Thanks for telling me what the Godfather's role is. Again why should the priest have the flexibility to decide what a child should be called? If a Macedonian wanted to christen his child over there -which name would sound more "uncommon or bizarre" to your priest - Elvis, Diego, Charlie, Jack or Pando? Please don't respond we already know what the answer is.

That's not a good answer.

That's your opinion! Now you tell me what does the name Pando mean? The priests who christened the Macedonians during the Turkish Occupation were not greek who insisted on people having greek or bulgarian names - you and the other greeks (and bulgarians) have to get that through your brains.

These are mostly foreign names that Greeks of diaspora took abroad (not in Greek Orthodox Churches). Now, if they try to give the above names in Church:

The Pure greek bullshit repeated again! The greeks of diaspora took names like Alice, Jenny, Melissa, Racheal etc overseas. What a joke?

They don’t BECOME. They COME from them

That's what you say. People like Nace, Vasil, Anastasia, Pavle, Pando, Kosta and Aleksandar would like to have their names as such and not "Fully Hellenized" as much as you would like your name becoming Solunovski.

[vodenka]

What? Are you sure you live in Greece?
You can't Christen your child as Vodenka in Greek Orthodox Church, but you can name it so, in the Greek Registry.
I also believe that you CAN change your Greek surname to Vodenko, but maybe you have to try and see.

So, all Macedonians in greece have to be atheist! And who gave the greek priest the right to refuse to christen children if he does not like the names? The greek state, of course! We are the only state in EU to have the Ministry of Education and RELIGION!!!!! The official religion of the state (with many advantages toward others) is the greek orthodox.
The law in greece says that when you want to christen a child you need to have a document by the municipality where the name is recorded or it is written "no name" and parents can register their child after chistenization, by using a document the priest gives them with the name of the christening.
If the name is registered in the municipality document, the priest should be obliged to go on with the blessing with no further arguments: not in Greece! He can refuse to christen the child! I do not know many Macedonians in Greece willing to go through such a situation, at christenings.
As about changing surnames from greek to foreign, the greek law does not allow that. Others have tryied this, with no success, because the law has to change, first. The law allows a foreign name to be changed to a greek one, though!

[cultea]

Do you really think so? My father didn't emigrate because he wanted to but ran away as a teenager over the border because of the hardships he and his family experienced prior to and during the HellAss Civil war. This happened an year before the Deca Begalci. He like just about every other Macedonian was stripped off their Greek citizenship not because he ran away or fought for his rights but because he is Macedonian. I don't have to repeat what many have already told you on other threads but your undemocratic government passed a law allowing all refugees to return to Greece provided they were "Greek by birth only". The same did not apply to "Macedonian by birth."

Now Cultea try to think a bit harder and ask yourself - would your greek government with an injust reputation towards the other ethnic groups in greece be prepared to issue greek Passports to Macedonians like my dad who wants to be identified as a Macedonian of Macedonian Ethnic Backrground with the name he wants to be called and not what the greek priest wrote on his birth certificate?

I suspected it, but it’s your choice to say “applying for a Greek passport” when you meant he’s applying or reclaiming his Greek citizenship. He or his children (i.e. you) can have your citizenship, but you’ll have to adopt your Greek names and declare a Greek national conscience in an interview. That was the idea even before 1982, unless your father was charged with specific crimes. Still, even then his children could have returned, since they’re not responsible of anything. The “Greek genre” term is not literal, it means loyalty to Greece.

During his time in prison one of his sons was captured by your heroes and spent 8 years in jail. The older son was killed just about the time my father ran away. And your people considered it a crime!

I’ve read many similar stories. Your grandfather was temporarily imprisoned or exiled because his sons were rebels and the police probably wanted to evacuate their village or suspected he is collaborating, harbouring the rebels. Maybe he wasn’t trialled or convicted eventually. If he ran from the country (joining the communists), it’s not exactly a crime, but it’s not good either. It was rather a sign of treason and a reason to lose his citizenship.

Modern greeks who claim to be pure greek should use the Arvanti or Vlachs names as they suit them the most.

Arvanits and Vlachs may have different surnames, with meanings in Albanian or Romanian, but they were christened in the Greek Orthodox Church so their Christian names are the same.

The Russians can call themselves whatever they please and the Russian Church can preach as much as it wishes to - noone gives a damn? You seem to forget that it wasn't that long ago when Russia was a socialist country the majority of the Christians and people of other religions were not ruled by the Ortohodox Church.

Nope, I suggested that all Orthodox Churches (Greek, Russian, Bulgarian, Serbian etc) may have similar rules. The accepted names are Christian, NOT diminutives, in the national language/ version.

If a Macedonian wanted to christen his child over there -which name would sound more "uncommon or bizarre" to your priest - Elvis, Diego, Charlie, Jack or Pando? Please don't respond we already know what the answer is.

Jack would be Iakovos
Diego comes from Jackob, so it would also be Iakovos
Charley would be Karolos
Elvis has no chance

That's your opinion! Now you tell me what does the name Pando mean? The priests who christened the Macedonians during the Turkish Occupation were not greek who insisted on people having greek or bulgarian names - you and the other greeks (and bulgarians) have to get that through your brains.

I would bet Pando is a diminutive of Pantelehemon (which in Greek is shortened as Pantelis). It means all-merciful.

The Pure greek bullshit repeated again! The greeks of diaspora took names like Alice, Jenny, Melissa, Racheal etc overseas. What a joke?

I don’t get you, or you don’t get me. I’m saying that it is impossible they took these names (in this form) in the Greek Orthodox Church of USA, Canada or Australia. They have either changed dogma or these are not their original Christian names.

That's what you say. People like Nace, Vasil, Anastasia, Pavle, Pando, Kosta and Aleksandar would like to have their names as such and not "Fully Hellenized" as much as you would like your name becoming Solunovski.

It’s not just what I say. The history of these names is well documented, but your Church can of course change them or use local versions of them.

[Risto the Great]

Nope, I suggested that all Orthodox Churches (Greek, Russian, Bulgarian, Serbian etc) may have similar rules. The accepted names are Christian, NOT diminutives, in the national language/ version.

The history of these names is well documented, but your Church can of course change them or use local versions of them.

Do you note the inconsistency between these two statements of yours Cultea? Please explain why you changed your opinion so fast.

[cultea]

Do you note the inconsistency between these two statements of yours Cultea? Please explain why you changed your opinion so fast.

I meant "The accepted names are Christian, in the national language/ version, NOT diminutives."