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Old 12-15-2019, 09:55 PM   #11
Vangelovski
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Originally Posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
EU membership plays a role but Scottish discontent with the union goes back a long time.
For some. But a clear majority voted to stay in the UK last time because it meant staying in the EU. Now they want to leave the UK because that will mean staying in the EU. The EU is the determining factor.
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The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Old 12-15-2019, 10:18 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
What a nice dose of optimism! Although I have to be honest you wouldn't have been the person I would have expected to deliver it.

Democracy is the only viable system, no arguments there. The part that shakes me is what I perceive as cultism in the adherence to political figures.

What I see is democracy functioning in a mechanical sense, but not in the spirit that I would associate with the purest sense of what democracy should be. The rise of social media has really put a strain on the way this system should function. Its scary how many people you can disseminate propaganda to and how quickly you can do it.

I was reading up on some of the congressional testimony on the Facebook misinformation campaigns, Cambridge Analytica, etc.Many people thought that those Facebook campaigns were a broad brush style approach to propaganda. When in fact the level of individual targeting is like nothing we have seen before, all made possible by the vast amounts of personal data social media companies collect from their users. People were first profiled, they tried to first reach those who were most vulnerable, then they fed them a constant stream of material to steer them in a particular direction. Political groups were infiltrated. It was extremely sophisticated and would have been impossible to pull of even 10 years ago.

People are voting, mechanically, if you look at it in that sense democracy is working and the peoples will is being exercised. For me the question is democracy really democracy if people are not voting from an an informed or even truthful position. This is evident on both sides of the political spectrum. People are being isolated in echo chambers, essentially indoctrinated. The way they receive information is becoming so personalized that information is tailored to what ever the highest bidder though you wanted to hear.

Maybe everything seems worse when you live through it rather than read about after it has come to pass. Maybe there are parallels in history of when things seemed to be going off that rails but somehow worked itself out. All I know is that because of technology we are in uncharted territory. Politicians in typical fashion do whatever they need to do to stay relevant while the average person has no idea whats going on around them. I don't recall in my lifetime people being so politically divided to the point that families don't speak to each other. Something feels genuinely different. Time will tell if its a flash in the pan or something more ominous.

I can't watch the damn news anymore. I turn on one channel and I have to listen to snowflakes bitch and moan about everything under the sun and promise free everything to everyone. I turn on the other channel and I have to watch a bunch sycophants trip over themselves on a daily basis trying to justify the dozen idiotic things the big orange buffoon has done or said today.

People refuse to call out wrong when they see it because that would be an affront to their "team". Who the hell am I supposed to vote for? The 85 year old communist, the orange Lucifer, the most annoying iteration of my college professor, or Homo GI Joe?

Are these people representative of what most people are now a days?
Like RtG already mentioned, I don't think there has been a time in history when someone or another hasn't tried to manipulate the democratic system. But democracy has an in-built defence mechanism in the one person, one vote principle. You can't permanently manipulate everyone to such an extent that you can do whatever you like. There are constant ebbs and flows in public opinion and while stupid decisions may be made, in time there is always a corrective wave. The fact that everyone has one equal vote heavily dilutes propaganda and undue influence because not everyone buys into the BS. And even if a majority does for a time, eventually BS is seen for what it is.

I also don't buy how much influence technology can have. There's only so much information a person can consume before just shutting off. Whether its a newspaper, television, internet or whatever comes next, people reach their limit and switch off. I'm switching off the news to a much greater extent because I simply don't care what they have to say. And when I do check the news, more and more I'm looking for news outlets that simply report the basic facts minus the garbage commentary and random, incoherent thoughts of the reporter/editor. I think a lot of people are doing that.

And technology is a double-edged sword. Organisations and governments may have further reach to spread propaganda, but this is more than counteracted by the fact that individuals can obtain the same reach. These days it only takes minutes to falsify lies. Government's can't cover up for years on end when everyone has instant access to information, everyone is a reporter through the use of their own smartphone, and social media is the go-to medium.

BUT, democracy only works if people want it to work. If your a northfyromian, nothing will work for you.
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If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

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Old 12-16-2019, 12:22 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
For some. But a clear majority voted to stay in the UK last time because it meant staying in the EU. Now they want to leave the UK because that will mean staying in the EU. The EU is the determining factor.
It wasn't a clear majority at all, was very narrow. Not to mention the cases of independence votes being placed in the union boxes, was a hock job.
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Old 12-16-2019, 12:36 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
It wasn't a clear majority at all, was very narrow. Not to mention the cases of independence votes being placed in the union boxes, was a hock job.
Clear as in its clear there was a majority, regardless of how wide or narrow. The Scottish people collectively decided to stay in the UK in 2014 so they could remain in the EU. Now they're butthurt because the English voted to leave the EU (The Scotts again voted to stay in the EU in 2016). It all revolves around the EU for them.

As for voting irregularities in the West, you should actually attend a vote count some time - anyone can sign up as an observer. You'll very quickly learn that there's literally no way of fixing a vote. There's probably a dozen observers watching each vote counter from all parties, plus random non-aligned citizens who just want to see for themselves how its all run.
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If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

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Old 12-16-2019, 01:49 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
Clear as in its clear there was a majority, regardless of how wide or narrow. The Scottish people collectively decided to stay in the UK in 2014 so they could remain in the EU. Now they're butthurt because the English voted to leave the EU (The Scotts again voted to stay in the EU in 2016). It all revolves around the EU for them.

As for voting irregularities in the West, you should actually attend a vote count some time - anyone can sign up as an observer. You'll very quickly learn that there's literally no way of fixing a vote. There's probably a dozen observers watching each vote counter from all parties, plus random non-aligned citizens who just want to see for themselves how its all run.
Disagree that it's solely about the EU as the independence movement has been strong all decade and Brexit is very recent.

As for the vote fixing, it was caught on film. There can be observers sure but when they choose to turn a blind eye then what?
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Old 12-16-2019, 04:24 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
Disagree that it's solely about the EU as the independence movement has been strong all decade and Brexit is very recent.

As for the vote fixing, it was caught on film. There can be observers sure but when they choose to turn a blind eye then what?
So the pro independence observers turned a blind eye? How did the video get out if everyone was turning a blind eye? Who took it? Who released it? Maybe observers? That's the whole point of observers - to catch the cheats.

Like I said, next election (doesn't really matter whether its local, state or federal) volunteer to be an observer and you will see how it all works.

I'm sure there's little pet issues out there re Scottish independence and it isn't about the EU for every single individual, but it clearly is for the majority. And Brexit isn't recent. There's been opposition to European integration from the very beginning when Keynes advocated for it in 1920. And the Scottish independence movement is much older than that, but the point was that the majority of Scots now are far too obsessed with the EU. They will do whatever they have to to maintain EU membership.
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If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

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Old 12-16-2019, 05:39 AM   #17
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The Scots are a funny bunch. For a seemingly proud nation which celebrate, with an almost religious veneration, all things Scottish - haggis eating, kilt wearing, bag-pipe playing and constant swearing, they are their own worst enemies when it comes to having their very own sovereign and independent Scottish country. I just don't get them.

In the last independence referendum, some of the reasons for it's failure, according to one news report I heard at the time, were that senior citizens were worried about losing their pensions while, among the younger generations, it was concern over falling out of the EU. Naturally, there were plenty of die-hard Scottish nationalists that voted for independence but, unfortunately for them, they were the in the minority and were let down (i.e. betrayed) by the majority of their own countrymen.

Sound familiar?
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