The Bulgarian ethnographer Vasil Kanchov, who was he?

[Epirot]

Can you sell me the Albanian national substance for cheap?

and what are you trying with this?

[Epirot]

Can you show any evidence of those events taking place as you have described?

The Bulgarians had driven the Albanians back to the more mountainous tracts of country, but the destruction of their capital Achris enabled the latter to gain head again, and it is then that they first appear on the page of history as acting a conspicuous part. The Bulgarians however recovered their power before another century had elapsed, and they extended to the southernmost parts of Epirus; Cedrenus records, in confirmation of this, that they had even taken possession of Nicopolis. They formed an alliance with the Blacks in the year 1186, and rebelled together against the Greek empire; they succeeded in founding another kingdom, of which Turnovo was the capital.

http://albanianhistory.net/texts19/AH1848_2.html

Oh please! A whole thread was opened specifically for the purpose of demonstrating the Illyrian heritage of the modern Albanians, and you've produced nothing of substance. Telling yourself that you're an 'Illyrian' doesn't make it so.

All possible evidences support our Illyrian heritage, SoM!

[Epirot]

So you were not happy with us calling you "Shiptar" which is the way we pronounce it which is quite different from you, also which was used way before Miloshevic.

Now Can we look at your above statement also as trying to forcibly Albanianize our speech?

And did you also say something about double standard somewhere?

I am not trying to Albanianize your speech but only to warn you that this kind of pronounce has derogatory connotation.

[Bill77]

I am not trying to Albanianize your speech but only to warn you that this kind of pronounce has derogatory connotation.

How????? by removing one letter "Q" from the way you say it?

Well we feel the same when you add an "a" to Macedonian place names.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The Bulgarians had driven the Albanians back to the more mountainous tracts of country, but the destruction of their capital Achris enabled the latter to gain head again, and it is then that they first appear on the page of history as acting a conspicuous part. The Bulgarians however recovered their power before another century had elapsed, and they extended to the southernmost parts of Epirus; Cedrenus records, in confirmation of this, that they had even taken possession of Nicopolis. They formed an alliance with the Blacks in the year 1186, and rebelled together against the Greek empire; they succeeded in founding another kingdom, of which Turnovo was the capital.

http://albanianhistory.net/texts19/AH1848_2.html

Which author from that period of time mentioned the 'Bulgarians' having "driven the Albanians back to the more mountainous tracts of country".......??

You know what mate, despite your indoctrinated views that can at times resemble the more extreme elements in Albanian society, I still don't find myself hating you. As a matter of fact, I don't think you're a bad fellow at all by nature, but you have to take off the glasses and look harder at the facts and circumstances throughout history, and be more critical of your own history. It's a healthy process. Personally, I don't deny that there may possibly be Paleo-Balkan elements in your genes, culture and language, I just don't agree with the percentages proposed by some people. However, I do believe there are significant elements in your culture and language that are not Paleo-Balkan at all, and possibly originate from somewhere in the Caucasus, Middle East or North Africa. I am not being specific because I am still researching the matter, but there is no way that any person can logically accept that everything significant in the Albanian language and culture has Paleo-Balkan, let alone Illyrian origins. Where it concerns the genes, I haven't looked into it in much detail, but from what I have briefly gathered it appears that most of the Balkan peoples have enough 'local' DNA to confirm a genetical heritage to the people before them.

Change some of your views or come to terms with the reality of other views, you're in a Macedonian house, I can assure you respect so long as you're prepared to give it back, but you know exactly what the issues and sensitivities between our peoples are so always have that in consideration when you're here. Don't be suprised at hostility if you fail to adhere to my good advice. Otherwise, I notice you share a passion for ancient and medieval history, if we work together we can probably make some good discoveries and conclusions, I don't work with an anti-Albanian agenda, so I am more than happy to explore your origins and language further and would be pleased if you could assist. Why do you think I responded to each of your PM's when you requested source material on certain subjects? There is certain information that you are able to reach easier, and there is information that I can reach easier. The reason no progress is made in the Balkans is because every so-called historian, linguist or other nationalistic academic, when in the knowledge of something potentially useful for one of their neighbours, holds their cards to their chests. I am trying to counter that sort of attitude by helping you when you asked for it.

It's up to you, you can either have some dignity and respect, or you can slowly but surely disintegrate into a spiteful member, which will ultimately lead to your departure. I don't want to see that, I think there is a chance for you to change some of your perceptions. And with Macedonians and Albanians working together on historical and linguistic matters in good will, objective, open to mutual criticism, agreeing to disagree on difficult points, etc, much progress can be made. Think about it.

[Epirot]

Which author from that period of time mentioned the 'Bulgarians' having "driven the Albanians back to the more mountainous tracts of country".......??

I don't know on which authors James Henry Skeene based his statement, but his statement cannot be doubted since Bulgarian invasion (which were hostile military hordes) expelled thousands of native people in Balkans.

As a matter of fact, I don't think you're a bad fellow at all by nature, but you have to take off the glasses and look harder at the facts and circumstances throughout history, and be more critical of your own history. It's a healthy process.

SoM, the criticism as a principle is welcomed everywhere especially in historiography. I am not type who is obsessed after the past and imagine it as a perfect world with perfect human beings. Therefore, I'll be forever critic of all who thought history as something 'saint' that cannot be touched or "blasphemed". I feel better to dispute every official versions and not to applause "European" helleno-centric views. I always like to look what is behind "the official truth".

Change some of your views or come to terms with the reality of other views, you're in a Macedonian house, I can assure you respect so long as you're prepared to give it back, but you know exactly what the issues and sensitivities between our peoples are so always have that in consideration when you're here.

I noticed even before that history finds many common things between people and helps them to built bridges of real friendship. While I was not familiar with history, I tended to hate everyone who is not like me but History taught me that there is also an another side that should be respected. History afford ample examples when Balkans people could live better in tolerance and harmony with one another. It is a strong bond that links all of us who live in this Balkans: it is the place when was born civilisation and knowledge. Western civilisation rooted here in Balkans and not in any other part of Europe. The main destructive factor that broke such common bonds are attempts of some circles that prefers to monopolize the past. In order to exceed the sensitive issues between our peoples we should take the past as a example of co-operation.

Otherwise, I notice you share a passion for ancient and medieval history, if we work together we can probably make some good discoveries and conclusions, I don't work with an anti-Albanian agenda, so I am more than happy to explore your origins and language further and would be pleased if you could assist. Why do you think I responded to each of your PM's when you requested source material on certain subjects?

I'd like to thanks you for helping me to find easier many answers about many questions. I'll be pleased to helps you in the same way!

And with Macedonians and Albanians working together on historical and linguistic matters in good will, objective, open to mutual criticism, agreeing to disagree on difficult points, etc, much progress can be made.

I agree wholeheartedly in all your points! Criticism marks a good progression for every research!

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't know on which authors James Henry Skeene based his statement, but his statement cannot be doubted since Bulgarian invasion (which were hostile military hordes) expelled thousands of native people in Balkans.

It is not the Bulgar invasion that I doubt, but the citation of Bulgars having driven the Albanians back to the more mountainous tracts of country. I don't believe any author from that period wrote those words.

[Eden]

I like Vasil Kanchov, i think he dressed a pretty accurate picture of all the ethnicities in Macedonia, even if he called us bulgarian (wich he admitted that we call themselves Macedonians). We are a uncontested majority since the ancient times .
Anyone can give me the work of Pulevski about Albanian expansion into Macedonia? I'm really really interested !

[Pelagon]

I am starting this thread so we can accumulate documents in regards to the Bulgarian ethnographer Vasil Kanchov.

He published a book in 1900 called "Macedonia — ethnography and statistics". Albeit Macedonians were denoted as Bulgarians in this book and on the including map.

What is very interesting is that in 1911 he published a book called "Orohydrography of Macedonia" in which he himself refutes the fact that the Bulgarians of Macedonia did not consider themselves Bulgarians but rather Macedonians only.

Title page.

First page.


Here is the important passage on page one translated into English:


Greeks form Macedonia do not call themselves Macedonians........

Hello Daskale,
Any chance of posting Kanchov's population (ethnographic) statistics on Macedonia that also includes the "Albanians" (Arnauti)? I am pretty sure they were published in English in one of the "Macedonian Review" issues from the 1980s or late 1970s.

[ramo]

If you can read and understand bulgarian there are some of his works on wikipedia.

What you asked for statistics for all ethnic Macedonia is given on this link

http://www.promacedonia.org/vk/vk_2_b.htm

the last table is ethnic census of all Macedonia. Up on the page is the population given by vilaet-s and kaza-s the turkish administrative division .

These are the numbers for the Macedonians, Albanians, Turks and Greeks.

macedonians ("bulgarians") 1,181,336 (1,032,533 christian, 148,803 macedonian muslim)
albanians (arnauts) 128,711 ( 9,510 christian, 119,201 )
turks 499,204
greeks 228,702


I can see from this table that Macedonian Muslims were more than Albanians in 1900.

[Pelagon]

If you can read and understand bulgarian there are some of his works on wikipedia.

"Bulgarian" is a Macedonic language but the "Bulgarian" Kanchov would have used would be different from modern literary "Bulgarian" and it may be impossible to find an online translator for it. And I don't understand (fully) a different language to Macedonian even if it is a closely related Macedonic language but I assume that tables with population statistics should be clear enough to grasp.

What you asked for statistics for all ethnic Macedonia is given on this link
http://www.promacedonia.org/vk/vk_2_b.htm

What I asked for is to actually get the English article published in a "Macedonian Review" issue (I used to own a copy but have lost it) posted here.

That website is PRO-Bulgarian and ANTI-Macedonian and I don't wish to give it any promotion or credibility for anything Macedonian. I am guessing VK stands for Vasil KURlakovski (Karlaukovski), a known hard-core anti-Macedonian Bulgar propagandist from decades ago.

These are the numbers for the Macedonians, Albanians, Turks and Greeks.

macedonians ("bulgarians") 1,181,336 (1,032,533 christian, 148,803 macedonian muslim)
albanians (arnauts) 128,711 ( 9,510 christian, 119,201 )
turks 499,204
greeks 228,702


I can see from this table that Macedonian Muslims were more than Albanians in 1900

These figures are one reason why Macedonians should chase up the source (and anything similar and detailed) I suggested.

Thanks for the feedback Ramo.

[ramo]

"Bulgarian" is a Macedonic language but the "Bulgarian" Kanchov would have used would be different from modern literary "Bulgarian" and it may be impossible to find an online translator for it. And I don't understand (fully) a different language to Macedonian even if it is a closely related Macedonic language but I assume that tables with population statistics should be clear enough to grasp.


What I asked for is to actually get the English article published in a "Macedonian Review" issue (I used to own a copy but have lost it) posted here.

That website is PRO-Bulgarian and ANTI-Macedonian and I don't wish to give it any promotion or credibility for anything Macedonian. I am guessing VK stands for Vasil KURlakovski (Karlaukovski), a known hard-core anti-Macedonian Bulgar propagandist from decades ago.



These figures are one reason why Macedonians should chase up the source (and anything similar and detailed) I suggested.

Thanks for the feedback Ramo.

I put bulgarian in quotes because K'nchov clearly states that Macedonians called themselves Macedonians and yet he didn't mind calling them Bulgarians and misinterpreting the facts.

Google translate does not translate correct some words in english because the script on the web page i posted is with 3-4 letters more in 1900 that they don't use today. Those are.

ѣ - е
ѫ - а ("ѫ" is mainly used in the word "сѫ (са)" - meaning "ARE" )

Also the letter "ъ" used in the end of the words, also not used today, makes problem in translating to english. For example "югъ" (macedonian "југ") in the text if you try to translate to english it translates to "yuga (latin)" meaning nothing. If you remove the letter "ъ" the translation becomes "south" which is correct. The word "съ" (macedonian "со", english "with") is translated in english to "со" (cyrilic). If you remove "ъ" the "с" (cyrilic and also today written in bulgarian as single letter) translates to "with" in english which is correct.
If you change those letters in google translate you should get better translation.

I must also say that Vasil K'nchov quotes another people that made some population statistics befor him, like the russian Rostkovski. Rostvkovski calls the local macedonian population Macedonians Slavs or Slavs and not Bulgarians, but as i said he doesn't mind misinterpreting the facts.

P.S. I didn't know you were looking for certain source i thought you were looking for anything. I will try to find it. And one more thing, i know what kind of web site is promacedonia don't worry . cheers.

[Pelagon]

I put bulgarian in quotes because K'nchov clearly states that Macedonians called themselves Macedonians and yet he didn't mind calling them Bulgarians and misinterpreting the facts.

Google translate does not translate correct some words in english because the script on the web page i posted is with 3-4 letters more in 1900 that they don't use today. Those are.

ѣ - е
ѫ - а ("ѫ" is mainly used in the word "сѫ (са)" - meaning "ARE" )

Also the letter "ъ" used in the end of the words, also not used today, makes problem in translating to english. For example "югъ" (macedonian "југ") in the text if you try to translate to english it translates to "yuga (latin)" meaning nothing. If you remove the letter "ъ" the translation becomes "south" which is correct. The word "съ" (macedonian "со", english "with") is translated in english to "со" (cyrilic). If you remove "ъ" the "с" (cyrilic and also today written in bulgarian as single letter) translates to "with" in english which is correct.
If you change those letters in google translate you should get better translation.

I must also say that Vasil K'nchov quotes another people that made some population statistics befor him, like the russian Rostkovski. Rostvkovski calls the local macedonian population Macedonians Slavs or Slavs and not Bulgarians, but as i said he doesn't mind misinterpreting the facts.

P.S. I didn't know you were looking for certain source i thought you were looking for anything. I will try to find it. And one more thing, i know what kind of web site is promacedonia don't worry . cheers.

OK and thanks for feedback.

Ramo, if you can put something useful together in Macedonian or English from the above sources in terms of statistics, especially as it relates to the Aranuts and Greeks, I am sure it would be appreciated by many and it would be a good contribution to the resources available online and through the MTO (and this topic thread, too).

Cheers

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Not related to Kanchov directly but attached here is an ethnography on Macedonia written by Lerinec, Spiro Gulapčev. Despite him referring to the population in Macedonia as "Macedonian Bulgarians", he was one of the first envisioners of a Balkan Federation and strongly believed Macedonia should form its own autonomous unit within said federation.

http://www.strumski.com/books/%D0%95%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%84%D0%B8%D1%8F%20%D0%BD%D0%B0%20%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F.pdf