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Old 08-16-2010, 12:19 PM   #51
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SoM, is is stated twice in the newsreel, at the end as well the last 20 seconds or so. This is strong evidence.
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Old 08-16-2010, 05:52 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon

Because Macedonia is not their national homeland
We are going again and again in circles...if Macedonia isn't their homeland this mean that they are newcomers there. Is that you want to point out?

Quote:
What constitution? The one which was criminally changed because terrorists from your ethnicity decided to start murdering Macedonian security forces and provoking a war? Y
Criminally changed? Give me a break man.If this constitution was changed criminally then how do you explain that Macedonians (I mean their political representatives) agreed with this constitution, eh?

Quote:
and Macedonians paid the price for being generous to a largely ungrateful horde of terrorists.
Macedonians paid nothing since international community gave many financial aids (for the refugees) but these monies were absorbed arbitrary by the government for their daily agenda.

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If large segments of the Macedonian community in Albania became gun-totting terrorists and extremists that think they can live above the law,
Are you claiming something without any evidence as always? If Albanians "terrorists" and "extremists" think they are above the law, why international community never pointed out something like that. I mean i never read any report that stated: 'Albanians are trying to be above the law'. Otherwise, I've read many reports that do accuse your government of not respecting rights of Albanians.

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I think you will find that we have also provided plenty of information about your people, particularly in Greece. I notice you keep sticking to the XIXth century, do you not consider the Macedonians to exist prior to this time?
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I haven't seen you do that on any public forum
I said that I was for a while member of 'Maknews' and then I came here because there were more members and active threads.

If I agree with the existence of Macedonians as a distinct ethnic group, how can I deny their existence prior XIX century? I do not believe that Macedonians came in XIX century with alien ships!

Quote:
Are you trying to deny the significant Albanian element in the Ottoman bashibozok mercenaries that raped the Balkans, particularly during the 19th and 20th centuries? Is this news to you?
The significant Albanian element in Ottoman mercenaries? Historical versions of all our neighbors wants to show Albanians as mercenaries or tools in hands of Turks but if you research a little more about Anti-Ottoman uprisings in Balkans you will find that always Albanians participated in all large revolts against Ottomans. "Greek" Revolution was essentially Albanian, was not?

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Use the correct Macedonian suffix[/u]. You persistence is becoming offensive, and I hope this will be the last time I have to remind you about common courtesy.
My persistence is no offensive to noone because I use it as we pronounce. Let me make a short digression:

Quote:

Macedonian: Крушево

The name of the town in other languages is:

Aromanian: Crushuva
Albanian: Krusheva
Turkish: Kruşova, Kuruşova
Greek: Κρούσοβως
As you see in both Aromanian, Albanian and Turkish, the city's name ends with -a, whereas in Macedonian and Greek it ends with -во and -βως respectively. So if you meet an Aromanian he will call this city as Crushuva. I don't think that his persistence of using such pronounce is offensive for anyone.

Quote:
Vasil Kanchov himself limits the number of Albanians in Krushevo to about 400, all of them Christians, do you dispute this?
I cannot judge him because I have not read his account yet. I need to read all of his account and then to judge something. But being himself a Bulgarian, he might be biased...
At this time Bulgarian 'ethnographers' made many distorted evidences to suit their agenda for Great Bulgaria. Should we count Bulgarians as a credible source, shouldn't we?
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Last edited by Epirot; 08-16-2010 at 06:01 PM.
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Old 08-16-2010, 06:16 PM   #53
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Epirot, I will ban you if you continue to refer to Macedonian place names in Macedonia with Albanian endings. This veiled disrespect on a Macedonian forum is simply another example of the Albanian agenda to negate the significance of anything that is Macedonian. The recent example of some gathering in Skopje with Albanian/USA & EU Flags (with no Macedonian flag) is yet another example.

Ethnic Albanians who have lived in Macedonia would qualify as Macedonian more than I do in some ways. Yet most of them will not care for a minute if the Macedonian identity was flushed down the EU toilet. I cannot accept them as being useful to Macedonians or Macedonia.

Your dear friend Uskana was struggling with my suggestion that ethnic Albanians living in Macedonia who could only speak Serbian as a second language should be deported. Obviously they are outsiders who do not deserve to live in Macedonia. Do you know of any people like this in Macedonia? Would you think they should actually be able to speak Macedonian rather than Serbian if they were continually surrounded by Macedonians in their day to day existence? These are really simple questions yet ethnic Albanians from Macedonia cannot be honest about them.

How do you think most ethnic Albanians migrated to Macedonia. Do you really believe they have always been there? I am positive almost all of them came during Ottoman times with the distinct advantage of changing religion and embracing Islam thereby allowing the right to hold weapons. Isn't this also obvious?

The recent Albanian immigrants to Macedonia should not be welcome if they are not interested in preserving the Macedonian identity. They should go back to Kosovo. Simple.
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Old 08-16-2010, 08:40 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirot
.......if Macedonia isn't their homeland this mean that they are newcomers there. Is that you want to point out?
No. If Macedonia is not their national homeland yet they live in Macedonia, then they are a minority. They get the same civil rights as the Macedonians and others. However, matters of national significance relating to the Macedonian identity and integrity, will remain for Macedonians to deal with. I am coming to realise that you are completely indoctrinated with the same extremist filth that your kinsmen display not only in Macedonia, but elsewhere too.
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If this constitution was changed criminally then how do you explain that Macedonians (I mean their political representatives) agreed with this constitution, eh?
It is indeed a game of circles with you. Why are you asking the same questions that have already been addressed previously? Do you think it was the will of the Macedonian people and Macedonian government to change our constitution in favour of appeasing an extremist and separatist minority? Are you that naive that you cannot see how Macedonia was forced into this alteration of circumstances? It is a national disgrace, and Macedonians will not cease to persist until this injustice is rectified. Don't for a second think that the 'status quo' in Macedonia is what it should be, or will be going forward.
Quote:
Macedonians paid nothing since international community gave many financial aids (for the refugees) but these monies were absorbed arbitrary by the government for their daily agenda.
Macedonians paid nothing? You clearly haven't a clue about some of the core facts on the ground, and are as ungrateful as the separatist animals we allowed into our state.
Quote:
Are you claiming something without any evidence as always?
Oh please, is this what you're descending to now? Which of my statements have I not corroborated? What have I claimed as a fact without evidence? Where have I denied genuine facts which you have produced to the contrary? On the other hand, I can write a whole article on your dogding and weaving regarding the fictitious 'Illyrian' origins of your people.
Quote:
If Albanians "terrorists" and "extremists" think they are above the law, why international community never pointed out something like that. I mean i never read any report that stated: 'Albanians are trying to be above the law'.
You have never seen a newspaper article from outside of Macedonia making reference to your people as extremists, separatists, etc? You have never seen one cite the true intentions of the separatists and extremists?
Quote:
Otherwise, I've read many reports that do accuse your government of not respecting rights of Albanians.
You should be entitled to the same as any other minority in Macedonia. Period. What other 'rights' have been neglected? Not allowing your people to cover Tetovo and Gostivar with flags from a foreign Albanian state? What rights??
Quote:
I do not believe that Macedonians came in XIX century with alien ships!
Of course not, you just believe that Macedonians, UNLIKE ANY OTHER BALKAN NATION, should allow a volatile and separatist minority to dictate on matters of national importance concerning the Macedonian identity and state.
Quote:
Historical versions of all our neighbors wants to show Albanians as mercenaries or tools in hands of Turks but if you research a little more about Anti-Ottoman uprisings in Balkans you will find that always Albanians participated in all large revolts against Ottomans.
Seriously, you don't want to go there. The Albanians practically made the bashibozoks what they were. The Christian Albanians in the Morea are one thing, the Albanians of Ottoman 'Rumelia' are quite another. It has more to do with historical reality rather historical narratives.
Quote:
As you see in both Aromanian, Albanian and Turkish, the city's name ends with -a, whereas in Macedonian and Greek it ends with -во and -βως respectively. So if you meet an Aromanian he will call this city as Crushuva. I don't think that his persistence of using such pronounce is offensive for anyone.
You don't see Turks like Onur referring to Macedonia as the Monastir Vilayet, do you? Refer to Macedonian placenames located within Macedonia, by their Macedonian names. Neither Risto or myself will be making this statement again, it isn't a threat, it's a fact, we consider such linguistic 'adaptations' as offensive, so I trust we will not see this behaviour from you going forward.
Quote:
At this time Bulgarian 'ethnographers' made many distorted evidences to suit their agenda for Great Bulgaria. Should we count Bulgarians as a credible source, shouldn't we?
They did indeed, and the best way to verify such sources is by looking at others from before, during and after to get an accurate picture.

So, are you going to tell me more about these 20 Albanian seats at the Krushevo assembly, or should I disgregard this statement of yours also?

Why didn't Albanians complain about being called 'Shiptari' on Macedonian TV post WWII? Was Miloshevic that influental in Albanian socio-politics that he was able to dictate the name of your people, that he was able to make you ashamed of your own name, which you still use among yourselves?
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Old 08-17-2010, 03:45 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Epirot, I will ban you if you continue to refer to Macedonian place names in Macedonia with Albanian endings. This veiled disrespect on a Macedonian forum is simply another example of the Albanian agenda to negate the significance of anything that is Macedonian.
Risto it seems that you will ban every non-Macedonian in MTO, just because he pronounce place-names of Macedonia quite different from you. If so, then you are attempting forcibly to Macedonize their speech, are not you?

If you find that I have broke any rule of common courtesy, ban immediately me!

Quote:
How do you think most ethnic Albanians migrated to Macedonia. Do you really believe they have always been there? I am positive almost all of them came during Ottoman times with the distinct advantage of changing religion and embracing Islam thereby allowing the right to hold weapons. Isn't this also obvious?
During various waves of Barbarian settlers in Macedonia, Albanians in order to save their national substance moved toward mountainous zones. All possible facts provide a strong Illyrian presence in Western Macedonia. How come that Albanians are settlers in Macedonia, while they descend mostly by Illyrians?
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Old 08-17-2010, 04:11 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Epirot View Post
Risto it seems that you will ban every non-Macedonian in MTO, just because he pronounce place-names of Macedonia quite different from you. If so, then you are attempting forcibly to Macedonize their speech, are not you?
Epirot you also previously said this,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirot View Post
Indeed Albanians call themselves as 'Shqiptar'. .................

The intentionally corrupted form 'Shiptar' is used by Milloshevic's followers against Albanians.
So you were not happy with us calling you "Shiptar" which is the way we pronounce it which is quite different from you, also which was used way before Miloshevic.

Now Can we look at your above statement also as trying to forcibly Albanianize our speech?

And did you also say something about double standard somewhere?
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Old 08-17-2010, 04:36 AM   #57
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Bill77, I thought about the same thing.

It is a good point, don't you think Epirot?

I told you, by your logic, we have to be offended when you call us Maqedon in your language, cause it is not how we call our self.

I have had that argument with other Albanians, non of them have the right answear, which disposes your claim about the derogative connotation of Shiptar having secret agenda.

Epirot, what do you think about Kaplan Resuli? Read more here
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Old 08-17-2010, 04:56 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirot
During various waves of Barbarian settlers in Macedonia, Albanians in order to save their national substance moved toward mountainous zones.
Can you show any evidence of those events taking place as you have described?
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All possible facts provide a strong Illyrian presence in Western Macedonia. How come that Albanians are settlers in Macedonia, while they descend mostly by Illyrians?
Oh please! A whole thread was opened specifically for the purpose of demonstrating the Illyrian heritage of the modern Albanians, and you've produced nothing of substance. Telling yourself that you're an 'Illyrian' doesn't make it so.
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:01 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Epirot View Post
During various waves of Barbarian settlers in Macedonia, Albanians in order to save their national substance moved toward mountainous zones.
Can you sell me the Albanian national substance for cheap?
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:11 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by makedonin View Post

Epirot, what do you think about Kaplan Resuli? Read more
First of all, he is not a historian and his thoughts on origin of Albanians are motivated by political intention against Communism. He was sentenced...so now he is attempting to revenge against them saying that everything in Communism was false. But, Kapllan Resuli is alone... i mean I did not find any foreign historian taking his position seriously.
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