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Old 08-03-2010, 05:53 PM   #11
GStojanov
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Onur,

You remembered them well. That is exactly how you would say lizard or button or clumsy in South-Eastern dialect of Macedonian:

Here is the standard Macedonian (almost the same):

gushter - lizard
kopche - button
nesmasen - clumsy
selanka - female villager (often derogatory)
draska though is a scratch. It may be a local word of the Pirin dialects that I'm not familiar with.
Pisha is a common word for Pirin dialects and it does mee pee. Standard word is mocha.

Good memory. May your grandma rest in peace, and God bless her for remembering these Macedonian words and teaching her offspring of their past and culture...
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:11 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GStojanov View Post
Onur,

Good memory. May your grandma rest in peace, and God bless her for remembering these Macedonian words and teaching her offspring of their past and culture...

Thanks for your kind words GStojanov. I remember these words cuz we still use it and my grandparents was from the first wave of immigrants who escaped because of Balkan war but most of 1960s immigrants and their kids can speak Macedonian.



I remembered one more word ;

Pishkir; for a piece of cloth to clean something
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:38 PM   #13
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Yea, peshkir (or piskir in the south-western Macedonian dialect) means a towel.

My father has a close friend that moved to Izmir. They actually came and visited us. They used to teach in the same school (my father was a math teacher, and afterwards the pricipal of the school, and this man was teaching Turkish, the school was multiethnic as many schools in Macedonia still are).

We still have a Turkish minority, it is second only to Albanians, and unlike Albanians (which I must say are often unloyal) the Turkish minority is very well integrated and extremely loyal. I remember when I was in High School they asked us to volunteer to dig ditches to bring water for two turkish villages that were high in the mountains. We volunteered for five Sundays, until we completed the project (around 8 miles of ditches).

I also remember that the best looking girl in my generation (High School) was also Turkish.
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:54 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirot View Post
Anyway, not all of his statements should be taken seriously since he saw things from Bulgarian angle.
Of course, we should all be aware of bias. By labelling Macedonians as Bulgarians, Kanchov is presenting bias, however this does not mean that the statistics cannot be used effectively.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirot View Post
There are some traces of an Albanian immigration toward Bulgaria as many indications proof it:
This is true, however this was only a fraction of Albanian emigration to other parts of the Ottoman Empire. For example, the former Albanian villages around Ibrik Tepe, in Thrace, were also formed directly as a result of emigration from Albania.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirot View Post
I am somehow dubious for such occurrence since as far I know for Ali Pasha's period there is no expulsion of Macedonians. It is true that there were some conflicts between some Vlachs pastoral communities and Ali Pasha's government but this was true as well as for Albanians since Ali Pasha's cruelty had no boundary. He behaved bad even to his Albanian followers. There are many cases when Albanian villages were forced to move on in order to safe from Ali's repercussions.
Macedonia, Ethnography and Statistics ,page 84.

"Неговата власть отъ 1788 до 1820 год. е съдѣйствувала на арнаутското население да се укрѣпи въ Корченско и да захване южния брѣгъ на Охридското Езеро, отъ дѣто останалото българско население или избѣгало, или било избито въ врѣме на междуособицитѣ."

Translation: Ali Pasha's rule from 1788 until 1820 strengthened the Albanian population in Korca and allowed it to spread to the southern shores of Lake Ohrid, where the Macedonian population either fled or was killed in the fighting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirot View Post
Reference please?
Albanisation of Macedonian’s villages was extremely Rampant during the 19th century.

Macedonia - Ethnography and Statistics, page 90.

"Цѣлиятъ Горни Дебъръ е заплашенъ отъ поарнаутчанье. Българо-мухамеданскитѣ села, които допиратъ до арнаутски села, сѫ вече двуезични. Жителитѣ на селата Острени, Търново, Кленье, Летенъ, Джепища, Ѫрбеле, Обоки, Макелари и др. прѣдпочитатъ да се казватъ арнаути и да говорятъ арнаутски. Торбешитѣ отъ с. Рица, най-южно отъ подримскитѣ потурчени села, говорятъ повечето арнаутски и се броятъ вече като арнаути. Отъ друга страна християнското българско население се изселва много бързо отъ мѣстноститѣ Голо Бърдо, Пле и Жупа. Селата Вичища, Голейща и Писанки сѫ били въ началото на XIX. вѣкъ български, прѣди 30 години били наполовинъ български, а сега сѫ заселени отъ арнаути. Арнаутитѣ идатъ отъ сѣверни мѣста."

Translation: All Upper Debar is at risk of being Albanised. The Macedonian Muslims living next to the Albanian villages are already bilingual. The inhabitants of Dzepishte, Ostreni, Trnovo, Klenje, Leten, Erbele, Oboki, Makelari and others; prefer to call themselves Albanians and to speak Albanian. The Torbeshi from Village Rajca, the most Southern of the Islamise Drimkol villages, speak more Albanian and count themselves as Albanians. However, the Christian Macedonian population very quickly is emigrating from Golo Brdo, Debarsko Pole and Zhupa. The villages of Vichishta, Goleishta and Pisanki, were, at the beginning of the 19th century purely Macedonian, 30 years ago they were only half Macedonian, however, now they are inhabited only by Albanians. The Albanians have come from the North" Note: the village of Erbele is only about 6km's from Peshkopi.

Page 89.
“Докторъ Мюлеръ, който е пѫтувалъ по тия мѣста прѣзъ 1837—38 год., свидѣтелствува, че село Фердово (Фъргово) имало смѣсено население отъ арнаути и славѣни, и село Калище било чисто славѣнско. [4] Сега Фъргово е чисто арнаутско село, а въ Калище има само 1 останала българска кѫща.”

Translation: Doctor Muller, who visited Macedonia in 1837-38, witnessed that Frangovo had a mixed Macedonian/Albanian population, whilst Kalishta was purely Macedonian. Now, Frangovo Is completely Albanian, whilst in Kalishta only one household of Macedonians remain.

Page 93.
“Отъ половината на XIX. столѣтие много бързо изчезва българското население изъ Гостиварската Нахия и се замѣстя съ арнаути, или пъкъ селата запустяватъ.”

Translation: During the second half of the 19th century the Macedonian population in the Gostivar nahiya began to leave en masse, Albanians settled in the former Macedonian villages or the village went empty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirot View Post
Albanian colonisation as an expression is it hard to sustain since no literary record speaks of any influx en masse of Albanians into Macedonia. If modern Albanians represent some remnants of ancient Illyrians (Ghegs) and Epirots (Tosks) there is no room for inventing an Albanian "colonisation" of Macedonia.
It is well-attested Illyrian presence in most of western territories in Macedonia. The only "colonisation" that can be taken seriously is moving of some Albanians in some North-Western districts of today's Bulgaria.
I have already mentioned the Albanian colonisation of Eastern Thrace, but let's see what else Kanchov has to say on the matter. There was mass Albanian colonisation of many parts of todays Macedonia.

Page 86.
"Въ Костуръ има около 50 кѫщи християни арнаути, прѣселени прѣзъ XIX. в. откъмъ Епиръ."

Translation: In Kostur there are 50 Christian Albanian houses, Epirotes who arrived in the 19th century.

Page 88.

"Послѣднитѣ двѣ села сѫ прѣселени изъ Епиръ изъ голѣмото село Пилкадесъ въ Коницка Каза. Около 1840 год. сѫ дошли тукъ бѣлъ-каменци, а около 1860 год. негованци."

Translation: The Last two villages (Bel Kamen and Negovan, Lerin region) are populated by emigrants from the Epir, from the big villages of Plikades in the Konica kaza. Those in Bel Kamen arrived in the 1840s whilst those in Negovan arrived in 1860.

page 91.

"Още по-силенъ е напрѣдъкътъ на арнаутитѣ въ Пле... Село Граждани е било до скоро българско. Арнаути дошли малко прѣди 50 год. и сега тѣ сѫ болшинство."

Translation: The Albanians have been even more successful on the Debar Pole. Until recently, Grazdani was Macedonian. The Albanians arrived 50 years ago, and now they are the majority there.

Page 93.

“Особно се усилила арнаутската колонизация въ Пологъ къмъ края на XVIII. в., когато въ Тетово владѣли самовластни паши отъ арнаутско потекло, които нарочно докарвали арнаути изъ Албания…. Сѫщото е и съ Флорино и Чаиле. Арнаутитѣ въ с. Корито сѫ доведени на мѣстото на напустено българско селище въ началото на XIX. в. отъ тетовскитѣ паши изъ близосѣдната Рѣка.”

Translation: The Albanian colonisation of the Polog valley began to exacerbate at the end of the 18th century. During this time in Tetovo the local pasha’s, who were of Albanian origin, brought in workers from Albania to work the fields… The same with the villages of Florina and Chajle, as Alabanians from Korito village were brought in to settle the newly vacated Macedonian villages around the turn of the 19th century, on the request of the pasha’s in Tetovo.

Page 94.

“Арнаутитѣ въ с. Яголъ сѫ прѣселени отъ албалско село Блаце около 1830 год…. Въ с. Поповяни арнаути сѫ дошли около 1840 год. изъ Дебъръ”

Translation: The Albanians in the village Jagol resettled in 1830 from the Albanian village of Blace…. In Popovjani the Albanians arrived around 1840 from Debar.

Page 87.

“П на сѣверъ арнаутски колонии има въ Долна Прѣспа. Тѣ сѫ дошли тукъ изъ Корченско въ по-ново врѣме и държатъ западния брѣгъ на двѣтѣ прѣспански езера. Споредъ събиранитѣ свѣдѣния отъ Пукевила въ началото на XIX. в. Прѣспа е била населена само съ българи.”

Translation: To the north there are Albanian colonies in lower prespa. They are recent arrivals from the Korca kaza and they occupy the Western shore on both the large and small Prespa lakes. According to F. Pouqueville at the beginning of the 19th century, prespa was populated by only Macedonians.

As You can see there is strong evidence showing the graudal Colonisation of Macedonia by Albanians, coupled with the Albanisation of Macedonian people. Do you deny that either one/both happened?

Btw. I have only used the word "българско" because the quotes are directly from Kanchov, for no other reasons. I will not respond if i am attacked on this issue.

Last edited by Mastika; 08-03-2010 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:21 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epirot
This cannot be sustain since earlier Byzantine accounts makes known that Albanians lived in Ohrid and some regions in upper Haliacmon.
Epirot, which 'Byzantine' accounts make reference to Albanians living in Ohrid?
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:42 AM   #16
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First, there is no mention of 'Albanians'.

Second, there is no indication they lived on the territory of RoM before 14th century.


Quote:
Заселването на албанците в Долни Дебър е позволило тяхното пнататъшно придвижване в източна посока.

В съседната област Горна Река, лежаща около поречието на р. Радика, албанците вероятно са се установили трайно още през XIV в. Може да се приеме, че Горна Река и Полог са първите западномакедонски области, в който още през XIV в. е имало масови заселвания на албанци.

Първото свидетелство за наличието на албанци в Горна Река е гореспоменатият османски данъчен регистър от 1467 г.

Тук албански лични имена преобладават в села със славянски названия като Вълковия, Търница, Кракорница, Стрезимир, Рибничица(121). Смесеният етнически характер на вилает Река не е убегнал от погледа на османския данъчен регистратор.
http://www.imir-bg.org/imir/books/al...te_balkani.pdf


Third, the 'Albanians' were nomadic migrants, they often removed from one to another place and this doesn't imply their authochtonous existance in the regions they migrated.

Quote:
n.
1.A member of a group of people who have no fixed home and move according to the seasons from place to place in search of food, water, and grazing land.
2.A person with no fixed residence who roams about; a wanderer.
[French nomade, from Latin nomas, nomad-, from Greek nomas, wandering in search of pasture.]
Fourth, one Arvanite rich family is known to live in Ohrid, not 'Albanians' in plural.

Quote:
There is another place called ?the town of Ohrid which is also called Dibra ?and which is an archbishopric. This town of Ohrid has a fine countryside, which earns it well over twelve thousand ducats of gold. This region belonged to Lord Groppa who was married to Lady Chiranna, the second daughter of Lord Andrew Muzachi the Despot, and since he had no heirs, it belongs to us.

Во отоманскиот попис од 1452 - 1453 година, се забележани само 32 албански семејства на територијата на цела Македонија и тоа 31 семејство во вилаетот Калканделен (Полог) и 1 католичко семејство во Скопје.

The Ottoman census from 1452 - 1453 year, recorded only 32 Albanian families throughout Macedonia, 31 family in the vilayet Kalkandelen (Polog) and a Catholic family in Skopje.

http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%...BD%D1%86%D0%B8
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:56 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Epirot View Post
Keep up the good work Daskalot!

Is there anything more about Albanians by Vasil Kanchov?

I ask because a friend of mine who know Macedonian translate to me some passages of G. Pulevski. If I am correct Pulevski did not see Albanians and Macedonians (of his time) as two distinct people. He noticed some similarity between two ethnic groups. Is that true?

Vasil Kanchov had this to say about the Albanians:

"The Arnaut inhabitants in Macedonia are rude forces that terrorize, hurt and depersonalize the Macedonian Christian people. Arnauts present something that causes horror in the Macedonian country." - Vasil Kancov, Selected Works pg 379.
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Old 08-04-2010, 04:47 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Epirot, which 'Byzantine' accounts make reference to Albanians living in Ohrid?
In a collection of Byzantine accounts for Albanians (published in Albania 'Byzantine sources about Albanians from X-XV century) are listed all Byzantine chroniclers who wrote for Albanians. One of them, L.Chalcocondyles makes known that Albanians used to live in outskirts of Aegean Sea.

Quote:
Indeed, the center of the Albanians remained the river Mat, and in 1079 AD they
are recorded in the territory between Ohrid and Thessalonika as well as in Epirus.


http://www.101languages.net/albanian/history.html
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:08 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMRO View Post
Vasil Kanchov had this to say about the Albanians:

"The Arnaut inhabitants in Macedonia are rude forces that terrorize, hurt and depersonalize the Macedonian Christian people. Arnauts present something that causes horror in the Macedonian country." - Vasil Kancov, Selected Works pg 379.
It is an extremely biased statement since Albanians at the time were human being not aliens. Albanians suffered the same fate as Macedonians. Those who try to depersonalize and dehumanize us were Bulgars, Greeks and Serbs.
While Albanians did their best to liberate Macedonia from Ottomans, Serbs and Nazi-Fascists.

1. Struggles against Nazi-Fascism

Quote:
The expanding effort of the Macedonian people and nationalities — the Albanians, Turks, Vlachs, Serbs, Romanies, Jews and others — anticipated the massive anti-fascist and liberation insurrection.

~ Macedonian review~ Kulturen Život - 1995
Quote:
Part of the Albanians in western Macedonia joined the armed resistance led by the CPY, and later by the Communist Party of Macedonia (CPM). The first partisan company consisting solely of Albanians was formed in the middle of July 1943. It strongly agitated the Albanian population, leading to the influx of new Albanian fighters. This number increased further after the capitulation of Italy, when entire Albanian carbine companies, which used to act within the Italian occupational system, defected to the resistance. Some of their fighters became distinguished commanders of large military units, as is the case with Hamdi Dema and Tom Gjela. The commander of the Debar partisan detachment, Hadzi Leshi (also known as Captain Leshi) was particularly respected and popular with the Albanian population.

With the anti-fascist resistance in Macedonia flaring up, several Albanian brigades were formed. The Albanian detachments from Debar and Kichevo were known as the 4th Albanian Brigade, led by Nejat Agoli and Jafer Kodra. Later this brigade was renamed the 7th Albanian Assault Brigade, with around 2,500 fighters, who participated in the liberation of Struga, Kichevo, Gostivar and Tetovo.

The Albanians from Macedonia contributed greatly not only to the liberation of Macedonia, but also to the final operations in the liberation of Yugoslavia. Famous Albanians - national heroes that died during the anti-fascist struggle - include Bajram Shabani, born in Lipkovo, and Ibe Palikukja and Liman Kaba, from Debar.

http://www.lobi.com.mk/default.asp?I...295AFA303687C8
2. Struggles against Ottomans

Quote:
For twenty-five years these Macedonians had been organized into revolutionary fighting bands, the ‘Macedonian Committee’ for the liberation of Macedonia and Albanians from the Turks, and had struggled, not only against the Turks, but against foreign armed bands of propagandists.

http://books.google.com/books?id=suq...page&q&f=false
3. Struggles against Serbian occupation

Охридско-Дебaрско вoстание

Quote:
The Ohrid-Debar uprising (Macedonian: Охридско-Дебaрско вoстание; Bulgarian: Охридско-Дебърско въстание) was an uprising in Western Macedonia in September 1913. It was organized by the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO) and by local Albanian leaders against the Serbian occupation of the regions of Ohrid, Debar and Struga.
The rebellion started only two months after the end of the Second Balkan War. Local Albanians and Macedonians, led by Petar Chaulev, Milan Matov and Pavel Hristov expelled the Serbian army and officials, creating a front line 15 km east of Ohrid. A local administration was set up in Ohrid under the leadership of Lev Ognenov.[1]
After a fortnight of fierce fighting, a Serbian army of 100,000 regulars suppressed the uprising.
I cannot realize why some Macedonians today are having pro-Serbian sympathies!? Have they forgotten their history? How could they consider Serbs as a friends of Macedonian people when Milloshevic publicly attempted to annex North-Eastern Macedonia, specifically Skopje-Crna Gora in his attempts for so called 'Republic of Karadak'.

Quote:
Inspired by his promptings, Macedonia's Democratic Serbian Party, formed after the republic declared its indipedence, set about trying to establish a separate 'Karadag Republic' in the northern parts of the country where most Serbs live: Skopska Crna Gora (Skopje Black Moutain) and KUmanovska Dolina (Kumanovo Valley)

Burimi: http://books.google.com/books?id=BYa...dolina&f=false
Therefore stop seeing Albanians as enemies of Macedonian people. We have common interests and common enemies!
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Old 08-04-2010, 06:56 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Epirot View Post
It is an extremely biased statement since Albanians at the time were human being not aliens. Albanians suffered the same fate as Macedonians. Those who try to depersonalize and dehumanize us were Bulgars, Greeks and Serbs.
While Albanians did their best to liberate Macedonia from Ottomans, Serbs and Nazi-Fascists.

1. Struggles against Nazi-Fascism





2. Struggles against Ottomans



3. Struggles against Serbian occupation

Охридско-Дебaрско вoстание



I cannot realize why some Macedonians today are having pro-Serbian sympathies!? Have they forgotten their history? How could they consider Serbs as a friends of Macedonian people when Milloshevic publicly attempted to annex North-Eastern Macedonia, specifically Skopje-Crna Gora in his attempts for so called 'Republic of Karadak'.



Therefore stop seeing Albanians as enemies of Macedonian people. We have common interests and common enemies!


I think he is referring to the outlaw bands that terrorized the villages in Macedonia, not the Albanian people in general.
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