Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Pelagonija]

On a more serious note, we have recently touched on these very concepts previously, not only in this thread, but also within the following threads:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8870&page=9

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8852

What these concepts essentially lead to is incepting a formal division between our nation.

There are many complex issues that arise from this line of thought in respect of its viability (many of which have been brought up previously by multiple members of this forum). However, ignoring the many complex and critical matters that would have to be resolved, in my personal opinion, the most crucial issue at present is timing.

Right now, our diaspora communities around the world are collectively calling for unity to strengthen our influence within the Republic for this matter. Collectively, whether correct or not (which only time will tell), our communities favour optimism over pessimism, hope over defeatism, basically they aren’t prepared to give up the fight based on the premise that their efforts will in fact bear fruit within the Republic. In addition, I would say collectively most do not even wish to consider, nor contemplate a scenario where their attempts fail.

In this context, advocating or even proposing a context for formal division between our nation is likely to negatively affect the current movement, which, regardless of whether you believe their strategy will likely prevail or not, needs to be avoided.

Consequently, this relegates the concept of formal division to the realms of reactionary policy (which brings about its own set of issues and liabilities). However if we indeed want to be proactive in this regard, we would have to approach this matter in the vein of contingency planning, which would have to account for a plethora of variables considering the complexities and unknowns of the matter at present.

Speaking of divisions can we expect to see the final division/partition of FYROM in the event of a name change? Or possibly a complete Albanian take over and fyromiites become a marginalised minority?

I know we are are headed to the end of the road when arrogant cunts like shigelov come out and say that Aceta become a part of our history in the last ten years, add to the apathy of the people in FYROM it's game over. Diaspora will die out eventually hence I'm just not sure what we can achieve short or long term.

[Spirit]

Sofia, 16 February, 2018 - 12:28 (META)
In an interview with Bulgarian TV Nova, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Nikola Dimitrov said he and his Greek counterpart Nikos Kotzias want to resolve the name dispute, but also have differences about how the problem should be solved.

“We are burdened with own our history. We are a very proud nation, as all the Balkans are. It is important to show to the rest of Europe that here in the Balkans, we can act as Europeans. The battle is between the forces of the future and the forces of the past. I want my people to be able to hold their heads high when we solve something and the way we handle it”, stated Dimitrov.

He pointed out that at the moment, nationalism is weak in Macedonia and that the current government is trying to replace it with “visionary patriotism”.

“That is why we are very grateful to the Bulgarian presidency because, in a difficult situation for Europe – along with “Brexit” and the migrant crisis – the Bulgarian presidency has managed to bring the Western Balkans back on the agenda. It is very important to catch this train. We have been in the waiting room for a long time, it is important to us, it is also important for stability in the region”, said Dimitrov.

Is this guy serious when he says “We are a very proud nation” and “Visionary Patriotism”
Mr Dimitrov if “We are a very proud nation” you would not be negotiating or selling out our name and there is nothing visionary or patriotic about negotiating our name or identity. You are speaking in double standards and along with your colleagues are the lowest form of grubs.
And another thing Mr Dimitrov the past shapes the future, what you are trying to achieve today will negate the identity of us Macedonians and if it comes to pass will echo through the ages in the future. Do you and your colleagues want to be remembered as the traitors who gave our identity, our history, our birthright, our culture and our ancestral lands away. And as for wanting “our people to hold their heads high” you and that fucktard Zaev and the rest are fucking hypocrites and I’ll say it again the lowest form of grubs. Actually I’ll rephrase that you are worse than grubs.

[dvenov]

If I hadnt been reading this forum for a few years and if I stumbled upon it today and read this thread for the first time, I swear I'd think this is some anti-Macedonian forums for all sorts of haters from the neighboring countries.

Reading the insults addressed at our people is perplexing to say the least. Tossing the blame around and being brave behind insults isn't patriotic, in fact you're playing right into the enemies hands. I've read many posts from all of you and I know you are smarter than this, so cut the crap and wisen up because you're better than this.

[Amphipolis]

You make a point here. To be fair though, it is quite clear the Diaspora politicians have been utterly ineffective and tow the party line to the detriment of logic and their constituents.

I believe the Greeks don't even allow the citizens of the Diaspora to vote.

Anyway, I don't have Macedonian citizenship and am still toying with the idea of obtaining Greek citizenship. Will they let me in?

I wasn't blaming the Diaspora politicians, but the Diaspora (non) voters.

Greek Diaspora has both a right to citizenship and a right to vote.

I think you're eligible in both countries, though I guess you'll have to choose only one of them (this is the same problem you have with women).

Good point by the master of souvlaki..

How do we go about obtaining FYROM citizenship?

I'd get citizenship just out of spite to vote against those SDS pricks.. id vote for some far right party.

Risto you should chase and obtain Greek citizenship, do you know of anyone who has succeeded in this? how about land rites? Where are we at?

http://www.mfa.gov.mk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=127&Itemid=543&lang=en

[Risto the Great]

It is pro Macedonian and anti Fyromian.
Perhaps there was more hope years ago.
Where is any evidence of hope now?

If I hadnt been reading this forum for a few years and if I stumbled upon it today and read this thread for the first time, I swear I'd think this is some anti-Macedonian forums for all sorts of haters from the neighboring countries.

Reading the insults addressed at our people is perplexing to say the least. Tossing the blame around and being brave behind insults isn't patriotic, in fact you're playing right into the enemies hands. I've read many posts from all of you and I know you are smarter than this, so cut the crap and wisen up because you're better than this.

[Risto the Great]

I wasn't blaming the Diaspora politicians, but the Diaspora (non) voters.

Greek Diaspora has both a right to citizenship and a right to vote.

I think you're eligible in both countries, though I guess you'll have to choose only one of them (this is the same problem you have with women).

I was saying the Diaspora voters can only elect the Diaspora politicians. Is it different with Greece?

I have chosen one in both instances.

[dvenov]

It is pro Macedonian and anti Fyromian.
Perhaps there was more hope years ago.
Where is any evidence of hope now?

Its not pro Macedonian if from start you (by you I mean everyone here who says fyromians and assumes all sorts of things based on a few fake polls and newspaper articles) discard half the population and call them derogatory names. As if being called all sorts of things from the outside wasn't enough, now we need to do that to ourselves ... and that's somehow patriotic or will make things better on the long run? I fail to see how.

I'd rather people be silent and voice their opinions when the time comes, rather then being loudmouths and argue or divide among themselves. I mean how many times are we going to repeat this mistake that has always costed us dearly until we've learned our lesson?

The fact that people aren't speaking publicly is a good sign, we're not arguing, just patiently waiting to see this thing run its course, then we'll say what we have to say when the time is right for that. It doesn't mean all people will reject the name change, but having spoken to many many people from all sorts of backgrounds/age/gender etc (all ethnic Macedonians btw since I live in a place with mostly ethnic Macedonians), its more than clear that over 90% do not support any name change and in case a referendum happens all will vote against it and 100% will vote against it if the identity/language is being questioned or is part of the package with changes. Only real threat imo is faked referendum and if that happens then perhaps I'll lose all hope too. But until then, its our duty to remain cautious, united and smart above all.

[Vangelovski]

Is this Dvenov for real? Are we hearing the echoes from Gligorov back in 1991? Have I been sucked into a warp-hole?

[Risto the Great]

I'd rather people be silent and voice their opinions when the time comes, rather then being loudmouths and argue or divide among themselves. I mean how many times are we going to repeat this mistake that has always costed us dearly until we've learned our lesson?

The fact that people aren't speaking publicly is a good sign, we're not arguing, just patiently waiting to see this thing run its course, then we'll say what we have to say when the time is right for that. It doesn't mean all people will reject the name change, but having spoken to many many people from all sorts of backgrounds/age/gender etc (all ethnic Macedonians btw since I live in a place with mostly ethnic Macedonians), its more than clear that over 90% do not support any name change and in case a referendum happens all will vote against it and 100% will vote against it if the identity/language is being questioned or is part of the package with changes. Only real threat imo is faked referendum and if that happens then perhaps I'll lose all hope too. But until then, its our duty to remain cautious, united and smart above all.

Respectfully, I think you are making fun of me.

The time came,
went,
came back,
went again
and
now the time to openly attack any Fyromian is here.

Anyone who cannot understand why the Macedonian identity is under question in the world arena needs immediate education and/or derision. Fyromians are everywhere. In my mind, it would include anyone who thinks there is any kind of plan that will reveal itself in the future based on new events happening. It includes others as well .... but I still think you are making fun of me so I won't go on.

[Solun]

I wasn't blaming the Diaspora politicians, but the Diaspora (non) voters.

Greek Diaspora has both a right to citizenship and a right to vote.

I think you're eligible in both countries, though I guess you'll have to choose only one of them (this is the same problem you have with women).

There you go Risto, Amphipolis confirms your eligibilty for Greek citizenship.

Greece must be so confident with their negotiating that there will soon be no internationally recognised ethnic Macedonians. If there are no ethnic Macedonians outside of Greece, then they'll be happy to take you as an ethnic Macedonian citizen of Greece.

[dvenov]

Respectfully, I think you are making fun of me.

The time came,
went,
came back,
went again
and
now the time to openly attack any Fyromian is here.

Anyone who cannot understand why the Macedonian identity is under question in the world arena needs immediate education and/or derision. Fyromians are everywhere. In my mind, it would include anyone who thinks there is any kind of plan that will reveal itself in the future based on new events happening. It includes others as well .... but I still think you are making fun of me so I won't go on.

If it wasnt obvious, or perhaps Im not clear enough, I do not support any name change, except Republic Macedonia, everything else is out of the question. This seems to be the case with 90% of the people I've talked to. I was merely pointing out the calling 60% of SDS voters and 30% VMRO voters maggots or using any other similar and divisive rhetoric isn't getting us anywhere.

I have yet to meet a single person who would agree to identity change, so I don't know where you get your info from to claim that fyromians are everywhere. In my view, this rhetoric adds to the problem. Whether people understand that the identity is under question or not, well I cant answer that for everyone. I know that it is under question hence why I stand firmly on the position that any name change is out of the question. However I also understand that the negotiations which are underway need to run their course.

Im not making fun of you or anyone else, but if that's how my message gets across, I'm sorry that was not my intention. I simply pointed out that the rhetoric used in the last few pages is not productive.

[Tomche Makedonche]

However I also understand that the negotiations which are underway need to run their course.

Why?, why do the negotiations need to run their course?, if no one wants to change the name, why the need to negotiate?, why keep up the facade for 25 years?. Why do you feel the negotiations need to continue to “run their course”?

[dvenov]

Why?, why do the negotiations need to run their course?, if no one wants to change the name, why the need to negotiate?, why keep up the facade for 25 years?. Why do you feel the negotiations need to continue to “run their course”?

Because they are already started and ending them abruptly isn't the right way to go about it. Regardless of the fact that the negotiations are, for the lack of better word, 'forced' upon us by EU/NATO, we will show more maturity if we are willing to have a dialogue since we've already been shoehorned into this by EU/NATO. The same is true for Greece, they've been shoehorned into this as well.

What happens at the end of the dialogue is another matter. Im not saying there's no room to be worried or afraid, Im very worried as well, but not from our people or the fyromians as they are called here, but by our government and the international community who are not very open about the things that are discussed. I'm of personal belief that forcing this dialogue solely for the purpose of joining EU and NATO, 2 organizations that may or may not exist 10/20 or 50 years from now, is not the wisest choice if we consider our long term national interests. But as I said, we are in the position that we're in and continuing to talk is the better option because it shows that as a country and as people we are willing to talk to resolve problems, regardless of how absurd this whole thing is in the first place.

[Risto the Great]

Negotiations could have easily stopped after the ICJ ruling. But Macedonia still showed it's pathetic face to the world after this. It wants to be FYROM forever. Dvenov, you sound like an abused housewife. Make the comparison and prepare to be horrified.

Macedonia has had enough defeats. You should all be protesting. For once. Just once. Just for one day. If you show one moment of passion for your nation, watch the diaspora turbo charge the effort. Instead you talk about being so clever and having a strategy for the future. It's a sad joke.

[Vangelovski]

Dvenov,

You're either having a laugh, completely delusional or on drugs. Maybe you're not even Macedonian.

The Macedonians in Macedonia are worthless, degenerate dogs.

If they were worthy of the air they breathe, they would have hunted down their politicians, hanged them in Macedonia Square, and left them to rot in public back in 1992.

Negotiating the non-negotiable in NEVER right. Continuing to do it is NEVER right. Apologising for it and saying we "have" to keep negotiating is NEVER right.

The last thing we need now is another Fyromian apologist telling us to stay quiet and allow the chain of events that will lead to our complete annihilation happen.

For someone to come out with that same Gligorovist mouth faeces 30 years later on the eve of our final catastrophe is absolutely mind-boggling.

Got sit at your master's feet and don't bother me with your pathetic dribbling.