Greece is against Macedonias bid for membership in UN’s Human Rights Council

[Vangelovski]

Spill what beans bre? What planet are some of you people living on? The beans were spilled long ago, you think that the indifferent or enemies of Macedonia aren't aware of the situation? They are, but they don't give a damn, because the actions of the Macedonian leadership give the impression that the Macedonians per se don't give a damn. Don't you get it yet? The greatest enemy of the Macedonian people today is their own leadership, be they SDS or DPNE (I will exclude the M in both acronyms because they are unworthy of having the Macedonian name included in their party's name). Macedonia needs a revolution.

Delusional weaklings like yourself live in denial. You are no longer worthy of being labelled as 'ignorant', not after your time here at the MTO. So that leaves but one other option - traitor. I couldn't care about what your intentions at heart are, your 'approach' is what has kept our people back for the last 2 decades. It is this sort of pathetic and slave-like mentality that the Macedonian people need to rid themselves of, realising that we deserve our place under the sun and should fight for our dignity, integrity and respect - virtues you clearly know nothing about.

The views espoused by Ozimak are what have kept the Macedonians enslaved for centuries. Although I don't want to open this thread up to nonsensical spamming, views like Ozimak's gain credibility because people delusionally reject objective moral values and believe they can live by their own subjective moral standards (which even then they fail to achieve). I don't believe Ozimak is ignorent either, only because he has had the opportunity to see how flawed his thinking is. But that does not matter to him, in his own mind, he is able insist that his morally corrupt position with regard to Macedonian affairs is not corrupt at all, but rather it is the correct position and that his logically falacious views are logical after all. And he does this on the basis that (according to him) objective moral values do not exist. Judging from the inconsistencies in his views, it also seems that he rejects the existence objective logical reasoning as well!

[Phoenix]

yOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING, RIGHT?????????????
ARE YOU A FYROMIAN??????????????

OM, clearly doesn't get it...somebody should remind him that almost 2 decades of being a 'fyromian' and having a foot in the door of most world organizations we're still essentially 'fyromians'...clearly that strategy of self inflicted capitulation is flawed and totally self defeating but above everything else it's totally indefensible...

Maybe the hybrids amongst us, the ozimaks of the diaspora are comfortable with such lunatic assumptions...for the rest of us it's a little bit further down the slippery slide to oblivion...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Maybe your right SOM,were all putting in our 5cents worth.

Such input isn't worth 2 cents.

There is a saying that with the foot in the door there is the hope macedonia may win some friends in high places that may tell greece to bugger off instead of the constant interferring & medling in macedonias affairs.

There is no such 'saying'. Macedonia needs to stand on its own two feet rather than putting another 'fyromian foot' in the door.

[Risto the Great]

almost 2 decades of being a 'fyromian' and having a foot in the door of most world organizations we're still essentially 'fyromians'...clearly that strategy of self inflicted capitulation is flawed and totally self defeating but above everything else it's totally indefensible...

For any apologists out there, the above paragraph should set you free from your out of date mindsets.

[fyrOM]

You make the funniest statements. With all the doom and gloom being posted lately by many you would think Macedonia is already lost. Maybe you are…

Maybe the hybrids amongst us, the ozimaks of the diaspora are comfortable with such lunatic assumptions...for the rest of us it's a little bit further down the slippery slide to oblivion...

and closer to giving up than I am. Funny it takes a hybrid who only relatively recently taught himself how to read and write Macedonian from a book to point out the twists and somersaults of Macedonian and Balkan thinking to the real Macedonians and offer alternate views that just maybe its Not that bad and there is every hope for a win by Macedonia.

[fyrOM]

OM, clearly doesn't get it...somebody should remind him that almost 2 decades of being a 'fyromian' and having a foot in the door of most world organizations...

ahh not in eu
not in nato
not in UN’s Human Rights Council
not in what else
barely in un

...we're still essentially 'fyromians'...clearly that strategy of self inflicted capitulation is flawed and totally self defeating but above everything else it's totally indefensible...

Do you need reminding But for the current government every other government over the past 20 years sought how to rob Macedonia blind…eg Crvenkovski ect…to the tune of Billions and did very little if any to advance county from fyrom to Macedonia. Can you hold the current government responsible for the wasted years of the past.

[Risto the Great]

This Government (DPMNE) wanted to permanently change the name of Macedonia. FYROM was a walk in the park by comparison. If you want to measure the wrecklesness of successive Governments. This one takes the cake .... and ajvar .... and maznik.

[George S.]

RTG they just don't care given half a chance they sell their own mother.THe things that have been happening on macedonia have never happened in away that people simply want to destroy their own country.I had faith in gruevski originally because he kept saying on tv
that he won't change the name now we know that he will by participating in the name negotions.You know that no one trusts them dpmne otherwise they only get 25% of the vote.Government in macedonia is a joke perhaps a dictatorship or military rule might be better.The current democracy is for the birds.

[fyrOM]

This Government (DPMNE) wanted to permanently change the name of Macedonia. FYROM was a walk in the park by comparison. If you want to measure the wrecklesness of successive Governments. This one takes the cake .... and ajvar .... and maznik.

But did the take the cheese…
There’s a Macedonian saying pijackata e bratski ama sirejneto e so pari.
As a saying for fair business.

This is not true for everyone but a LOT of Macedonians. The stories you might have heard of people leaving their doors unlocked helping each other…including unknown people…and struggling for common causes paints a different picture of the society you encounter when you land there. Like I said not everyone is like this.

The problem with Macedonia is there are to many self centered egotistical types who believe that they are the only person that matters and the only way to get ahead is to push and shove and step on and use people…and the worst part is not that they do it without a care but that they do it with an air of entitlement…eg I’m the tax drive you’re the stupid tourist I’m supposed to rip you off and your supposed to be blissfully ignorant or winge to your friends later…why are you complaining…that’s how this relationship works world wide or are you some ignorant peasant that’s never been in a taxi before and even this holiday is on borrowed money…and they actually believe the ignorant peasant bit because his friends cousin came out to Australia for 3 months da zaraboti and he saw Everyone crncat from sun up to sun down for 12 to 16 hours at the factory and wouldn’t have a clue about going out while real people…were not even people…with real money like the Europeans don’t worry about the bit their being ripped off because its such a trifle to them they’d rather think of it as a tip than be bothered mentioning it. They like to counter this argument by saying being a wall flower gets you nowhere. Both arguments are valid but also they sit on opposite ends of the spectrum and one is left wondering are there any reasonable people left. When the attitude is grab what you can grab while the grabbing’s there and theft is considered sweet but a swindle sweeter it doesn’t build a country. This attitude is what successive governments have faced and sadly partaken in. For once Macedonia has a government that has not only showed signs but achieved some deeds of being reasonable humans and we vilify them as worse than any of their predecessors.

Do we even consider how far back Macedonia’s position is and how many layers of prevention exist and the minefield of traps to circumvent to get to being a proper country. Putin is a suck in Many respects but one thing I like about him is the cunningly calculating mind he used to come out on top out of the decade of mobster rule in Russia. Macedonia is not quite at the regular murder in the streets level that Russia was but more like unruly kids running amuck in the classroom vandalizing and doing whatever they want including threatening the teacher and your not only looking for proper business practice but also proper business etiquette. He said the proposal Republic of Macedonia Skopje…there it is he said it and we have the proof. The short answer to this is SO and the long answer is SO WHAT. The reason I wrote the preceding text is to alert you to a bizarre way of thinking which I think you as successful business types who have made countless winning negotiations still may not have encountered or at least not to this level…cheat lie steel threaten and bluff is the regular order of the day. Do you really expect honesty and taking peoples word on face value.

Ive tried to say it before don’t look at things in isolation and reach firm conclusions but instead try to figure out the bigger picture and how this act…x…fits in in the context of whatever else is going on at the time. If the government had not done as many positive things that they have done the proposal would have had a much more dark an sinister meaning. Its scary because Macedonian history is full of traitors and the current dog eat dog environment of the society trust is an elusive quality but the panacea to this heightened worry state is to use logic and ask yourself could he actually do it. Without over extending this and repeating myself things I have written elsewhere reread this to set the mind then

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5245&page=4

Then look at all the points in the post above it and see if you can argue for yourself where each one of those points fit in the overall picture and why each points to Not traitor…maybe a few bucks in the pocket…but Not traitor. If its still looking as clear as mud in a beer bottle try the walkthrough

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5227&page=6

and what you would do but also More importantly how does each of you choices impact on other points and how if at all you would modify your responses to any one point if other points were being adversely effected.

Think of looking past the mirror into bizzaro land and stop focusing on the reflection in the mirror and having expectations of reasonableness in behavior attitude and outcomes..

[Risto the Great]

OM, I get it ..... you think Macedonia should change its name. Why so many words? Spell it out so you might understand yourself better.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Maybe you are…closer to giving up than I am.

On the contrary, as a 'fyromian' you've already given up and you don't even know it. You're the funny one here mate, as you think you have it all figured out.

[Phoenix]

But did the take the cheese…
There’s a Macedonian saying pijackata e bratski ama sirejneto e so pari.
As a saying for fair business.

This is not true for everyone but a LOT of Macedonians. The stories you might have heard of people leaving their doors unlocked helping each other…including unknown people…and struggling for common causes paints a different picture of the society you encounter when you land there. Like I said not everyone is like this.

The problem with Macedonia is there are to many self centered egotistical types who believe that they are the only person that matters and the only way to get ahead is to push and shove and step on and use people…and the worst part is not that they do it without a care but that they do it with an air of entitlement…eg I’m the tax drive you’re the stupid tourist I’m supposed to rip you off and your supposed to be blissfully ignorant or winge to your friends later…why are you complaining…that’s how this relationship works world wide or are you some ignorant peasant that’s never been in a taxi before and even this holiday is on borrowed money…and they actually believe the ignorant peasant bit because his friends cousin came out to Australia for 3 months da zaraboti and he saw Everyone crncat from sun up to sun down for 12 to 16 hours at the factory and wouldn’t have a clue about going out while real people…were not even people…with real money like the Europeans don’t worry about the bit their being ripped off because its such a trifle to them they’d rather think of it as a tip than be bothered mentioning it. They like to counter this argument by saying being a wall flower gets you nowhere. Both arguments are valid but also they sit on opposite ends of the spectrum and one is left wondering are there any reasonable people left. When the attitude is grab what you can grab while the grabbing’s there and theft is considered sweet but a swindle sweeter it doesn’t build a country. This attitude is what successive governments have faced and sadly partaken in. For once Macedonia has a government that has not only showed signs but achieved some deeds of being reasonable humans and we vilify them as worse than any of their predecessors.

Do we even consider how far back Macedonia’s position is and how many layers of prevention exist and the minefield of traps to circumvent to get to being a proper country. Putin is a suck in Many respects but one thing I like about him is the cunningly calculating mind he used to come out on top out of the decade of mobster rule in Russia. Macedonia is not quite at the regular murder in the streets level that Russia was but more like unruly kids running amuck in the classroom vandalizing and doing whatever they want including threatening the teacher and your not only looking for proper business practice but also proper business etiquette. He said the proposal Republic of Macedonia Skopje…there it is he said it and we have the proof. The short answer to this is SO and the long answer is SO WHAT. The reason I wrote the preceding text is to alert you to a bizarre way of thinking which I think you as successful business types who have made countless winning negotiations still may not have encountered or at least not to this level…cheat lie steel threaten and bluff is the regular order of the day. Do you really expect honesty and taking peoples word on face value.

Ive tried to say it before don’t look at things in isolation and reach firm conclusions but instead try to figure out the bigger picture and how this act…x…fits in in the context of whatever else is going on at the time. If the government had not done as many positive things that they have done the proposal would have had a much more dark an sinister meaning. Its scary because Macedonian history is full of traitors and the current dog eat dog environment of the society trust is an elusive quality but the panacea to this heightened worry state is to use logic and ask yourself could he actually do it. Without over extending this and repeating myself things I have written elsewhere reread this to set the mind then

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5245&page=4

Then look at all the points in the post above it and see if you can argue for yourself where each one of those points fit in the overall picture and why each points to Not traitor…maybe a few bucks in the pocket…but Not traitor. If its still looking as clear as mud in a beer bottle try the walkthrough

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5227&page=6

and what you would do but also More importantly how does each of you choices impact on other points and how if at all you would modify your responses to any one point if other points were being adversely effected.

Think of looking past the mirror into bizzaro land and stop focusing on the reflection in the mirror and having expectations of reasonableness in behavior attitude and outcomes..

...hey makedonche...he's back...

wow..."as clear as mud in a beer bottle..."

[Vangelovski]

I've decided to utilise RtG's new nickname for him - fyrOM.

[Phoenix]

I've decided to utilise RtG's new nickname for him - fyrOM.

...lol

...we have to force him to change his avatar, take away the kangaroo and replace it with a big rat...

[Vangelovski]

...lol

...we have to force him to change his avatar, take away the kangaroo and replace it with a big rat...

I don't think he'll mind.