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Old 03-03-2011, 03:12 PM   #2501
julie
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OM, referendums have been rigged.
This one will be rigged
Shiptarite worldwide will be voting
Macedonian diaspora will not
3 years ago Gruevski came up with the Skapani Skopje
Why cant you see what he is doing?
He is further enforcing the Interim Accord through the ICJ
You continue to paint a picture that Gruevski cannot do anything but succumb to Greece's demands
For fuck sake, wake up, stop defending him, our flag is gone, our kutlesh sonce is gone, we are doomed, and our demise is there in black and white and you cant see what he is doing
Any referendum that comes up will not be like Australia's referendums, you cant see it
Stop defending the cockhead, he has not stood up to anyone
When Gruevski was in Australia shaking Rudd's hand why the fuck did he not insist on us being called Macedonians????He signed reciprocal pension agreements here with him, Rudd did not hold a gun to his head. Australia would have respected his wishes

It saddens me that people cannot wake up in the diaspora and see the firm writing on the wall, we are doomed OM, the decision has already been made, he has sold us out, and watch Gruevski retire in a western country , with UMD full support, they have been going along with the Macedonian government and working with them all this time. What the government has not realised is that MOST of the diaspora cannot be brainwashed into slaves and serfdom like he has done with the Republic.
And whilst am there am fucking sick and tired of us not being able to refer to our mother country as MACEDONIA. WE ARE MACEDONIANS. OUR NAME IS MACEDONIA. OUR HERITAGE IS MACEDONIAN , WE HAVE MACEDONIAN BLOOD, I AM NOT A FUCKING SKOPJEN, GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEADS
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Old 03-03-2011, 09:18 PM   #2502
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What makes Ozimak post so much mindless dribble on this forum...idiot, gun to his head or other?

Phoenix - is that google program available yet?

Did anyone see RtG's dog hear one hand clapping?

How long has this forum being running, how many times have we shown treason and illogical nonsense for what it is and still the same old tired posters come up with the same old tired propaganda.
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Old 03-03-2011, 10:29 PM   #2503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
What makes Ozimak post so much mindless dribble on this forum...idiot, gun to his head or other?

Phoenix - is that google program available yet?
TV, apparently some Macedonian Web Developers are working on it...oh, hang on, that's another thread altogether. I'm trying to get into the parallel universe thing that OM finds to be particularly lucid...

Last edited by Phoenix; 03-03-2011 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 03-03-2011, 10:51 PM   #2504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
TV, apparently some Macedonian Web Developers are working on it...oh, hang on, that's another thread altogether. I'm trying to get into the parallel universe thing that OM finds to be particularly lucid...
Psychologists say children see things in terms of black and white and as they grow and learn they start to see the world in shades of grey. Assuming psychologists are right how far along on the begging to see shades of gray scale do you thing you are.

We know children live in the same physical universe as adults but it is also a common belief children see things differently to adults and hence it is like the two live in separate parallel universes…is this the parallel universe you are referring to and trying to get into. I think you have to wait until your hormones kick in and pimples start growing on your face.

Try your hand at…

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...1586#post91586

And give us your superior insights.
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:01 AM   #2505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n239548

And why shouldn't Macedonia be the winner Ivanov?
Sounds like a sellout is inevitable by DPMNE and Co.

Anyone want to suggest a way Macedonia won't lose in this process? Disgusting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by julie View Post
Ivanov is showing his true form. The loser will be the one that has negotiated, what an absolute tool, compromising our identity. They are showing their tactics, they all have hidden personal agendas and its apparent they stand to profit nicely. Why else would they continue to play a dangerous game in selling our identity
Quote:
Originally Posted by indigen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
I think its prudent to keep our eyes on the ball and to read between the lines as much as possible but at the same time be weary of reading too much into statements that could be minefields of deliberate ambiguity...
There IS NO AMBIGUITY in the FACT that "our" ruling political elites in Mk are willing to "compromise" (sell out) DETRIMENTALLY to Macedonian national interests on the name issue, i.e. accept a NEW (amended) name for the state for international use. And this will not be the first nor the last stab in the back of Macedonian national interests, at least until there is nothing worthwhile left to sell out and compromise on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indigen View Post


Gloom, bitterness mark Macedonia's entry to the UN

Skopje: The people of [...] Macedonia yesterday greeted the news that their state had become the 181st member of the United Nations with a mixture of gloom and bitterness.

State-run Macedonian television covered the UN General Assembly session live and celebratory fireworks lit up the skies over Skopje's central square.

But only a handful of people gathered to watch and the streets were deserted.

"All this struggle, all this never-ending agony, was it worth it?" asked one of the few onlookers in the central square.


[...]

Prime Minister Branko Crvenkovski was the only official voice of optimism in Skopje.

The Parliament had called a vote of no-confidence in the Government over its capitulation to the UN conditions for Macedonia's admission.


[...]

But, ignoring the urgings by moderate President Kiro Gligorov to accept reality, Macedonia's biggest opposition party called the no-confidence motion, saying Mr Crvenkovski's Cabinet had violated the constitution by accepting the compromise name.

[...]

The influential Holy Synod of the Macedonian Orthodox Church yesterday lent the nationalists unexpected support, calling the temporary name a "lie, trap and insult"....."

The West Australian, Saturday April 10, 1993.


----------------

MACEDONIA SPURNS NAME (ILAWARRA MERCURY 1-4-1993)


In an apparent collision course with the terse Government statement, Macedonian President Kiro Gligorov called on the nation to face up to reality.

Addressing the nation over state television, he appealed to Macedonians to "face up to reality without sacrificing any national interests"..."



Some lessons in recent Macedonian political history on political double-speak, deception, treasonous capitulation/betrayal and exposing those suffering from political AMNESIA (all those who claim to be patriots and dpmne supporters keeping true to the party's anti-capitulation ideology of the past!)!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
In 1991, Macedonia was a Macedonian state. Now it is the state of various peoples who, according to our new Ramkovist constitution are all equal co-constitutive nations of the Ramkovist State now known internationally as FYROM.

As for Gruevski, this has already been pointed out numerous times, but it seems that every apologist newcomer needs to make a fool of himself rather than reading up on what has already been posted or thinking for themselves. Gruevski is a traitor because he has accepted and continued to implement the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement, among other treasonous acts. A name change would only be the final act of treason in a long line of capitulations that Gruevski and Ivanov have accepted and are selling to the Macedonian people as "necessary", just like their predecessors did.
Vangelovski, thanks for the CLEAR and CONCISE articulation of the main points relevant to this discussion!

So pochit,
I.

-------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volk View Post
Yes you are correct why Macedonia is taking Greece to ICJ to show Greece broke the accord.
The IA (Interim Accord") IS A TREASONOUS ANTI MACEDONIAN CAPITULATION DEED that was condemned as such by DPMNE and ALL patriotic Macedonians and Macedonian organisations back in 1995 and having the "Macedonian" state (NB: Ramkovist (post 2001) Macedonia is NOT a Macedonian state!) taking it to the ICJ VALIDATES this ILLEGAL ACT. Macedonian validation has grave and national suicidal implications arising out of this shameful treasonous act!


Што е паметно во спорот со Грција

Quote:
Македонија да се одлучи дали ќе го примени моето правно средство, или она на Јанев. Само во овие два случаја има правен силогизам со судска практика. Она што го прави Владата со тужбата е привиден силогизам, побиен од мојот правен силогизам. Доколку Владата успее со тужбата, тогаш сами сме си го ставиле јажето и ќе мора да правиме компромис. А меѓународното право вели дека за иус цогенс, какви што се посочените норми во мојата „Стратегија за зачувување на името“, која ја објави „Нова Македонија“, не смее да се прави компромис.

[......]

И за крај; доколку привремената согласност е важечка, зошто тогаш Грција петнаесет години не поднесува тужба против Македонија за мала фидес? Зошто не ја обвини Македонија пред Меѓународниот суд на правдата дека Македонија веќе петнаесет години ги влече преговорите и нема добра волја да ја исполни? Судот може да ја натера Македонија на компромис.

Заради тоа што правото на самоопределување е иус цогенс, а Меѓународниот суд на правдата во случајот „Источен Тимор“ 1995 година веќе одлучи дека правото на самоопределување важи ерга омнес.
Значи, Грција знае дека ќе загуби. Затоа траат толку преговорите.

Дај му на будалата доволно јаже, па самиот ќе се обеси (англиска поговорка).

[.....]

Авторот е адвокат и судски преведувач
Автор: Марјан Попески
-----------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
What's the answer Indigen...?
This topic is NOT about answers but about painting a CLEAR PICTURE of the STATE of the nation as it really is and not how some of us wish to IMAGINE it to be!

You might want to consider the following points that SOM presented in another topic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Who are we directing the message to? The world? Or our own politicians who are selling Macedonia out? What Macedonian Diaspora groups need to do is put pressure on the Macedonian government to conform with the goals of the Macedonian Cause, by cooperating with them while they continue to negotiate OUR IDENTITY we are making it easier for them to carry out their dirty work.

I am not advocating the cessation of trade and interaction between Macedonians in the Diaspora and those in Macedonia, but instead a form or forms of consistent and perpetual protest against the government's policies. Reject them and their advances, do not welcome them when they visit us in Diaspora countries, in fact, that is when we should protest. The Macedonian government can end this fiasco with the name today, right now, all they have to say is NO to the violation of our heritage, identity and integrity.

How many Macedonians are prepared to do that? And how many will still greet Gruevski or Ivanov like royalty when they visit the country in which they live? Our future can be ours to determine, but we need to take it into our hands. I eagerly await the next visit of any high-profile Macedonian politician to Australia - gone are the days of good reception, these people need to be held accountable for their actions, and if the Macedonians in Macedonia won't or can't do it, then the rest of the Macedonians across the world should. Afterall, the stupid decisions that some idiot politicians in Macedonia make, affect us all.
Cheers
-------------

A selection of what I think are some relevant posts from this discussion to be brought to the fore again.
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Old 03-04-2011, 07:51 AM   #2506
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The greeks were known as romani only recently before their creation asa country.

e people that today call themselves Ellines “Hellenes” or “Greeks” did not adopt this name until the 19th century. Before that they had called themselves Romii “Romans” - because they had been citizens of the (Eastern-) Roman Empire. Even today, the indigenous term for “Greekness” is Romiosini, not the artificial pseudo-classical term Elinikotita.
The greeks are never happy with their identity & are allways changing to suit themselves its like someone trying to put a different coat.
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Old 03-04-2011, 07:55 AM   #2507
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Default Interim Accord

Seeing as the letter of our amatuer Foreign Minister Milososki has recently come to light, it is perhaps timely to have a refresh on the Interim Accord for all the goldfish out there.

The full text of the Interim Accord (from the UN database) can be found here:

http://untreaty.un.org/unts/120001_1...3/00004456.pdf

Key Articles in the Interim Accord which Undermine Macedonian Sovereignty

a) Macedonia agrees to negotiate its name (Article 5);

b) Macedonia agrees to renounce all claims to its ethnic/historic territory and agrees NOT to pursue the rights of Macedonians not only in Greece but in ANY OTHER STATE (Article 6);

c) Macedonia agrees to renounce the Sonce as its national symbol AND any other symbols that Greece considers to be part of its historic or cultural heritage (Article 7); and

d) Macedonia agrees to only enter international organisations under FYROM (Article 11).

In addition, another article of interest is the following (I would not necessarily argue that this undermines Macedonian national sovereignty for the simple fact that the ICJ is a limitation on national sovereignty, it is nonetheless rather stupid):

e) Macedonia agrees that the two parties will not “resolve” the name dispute through the International Court of Justice – i.e., Igor Janev’s proposal (Article 21).
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The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

Last edited by Vangelovski; 03-04-2011 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 03-04-2011, 09:15 AM   #2508
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What a joke macedonia gets the raw deal again,isn't that surprising when did it get a good deal.If the interim accord is not capitulation & compromise i don't know what is.I'm speechless whoever agreed to this is a damn traitor.
Vangelovski thanks for bringing this up i didn't know how bad it was until i read this.Hey man we've been sold out big time.
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Old 03-04-2011, 09:58 AM   #2509
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This must be a joke. The government is nationalistic what's with this thing ?
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Old 03-04-2011, 03:22 PM   #2510
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There really is no "devil in the detail" with this agreement.
The devil is actually quite prominent and laughing at the Macedonians who sold their souls for such little gain.
Quote:
e) Macedonia agrees that the two parties will not “resolve” the name dispute through the International Court of Justice – i.e., Igor Janev’s proposal (Article 21).
I forgot about this.
This is priceless. Macedonia is not allowed to resolve the name dispute in the ICJ, but it certainly can go to the ICJ to make sure it is allowed to be called FYROM. Stupid is as stupid does,
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