Nikola Gruevski

[Soldier of Macedon]

I think publicly the UMD has suggested that they were in favour of a modified name because their sources in the government were telling them that Gruevski was prepared for a modified name.

Spot on. Which begs the question, who do the UMD represent, because it is known for a fact that the Macedonian Diaspora did NOT accept any name changes?

Rather than reinforcing the Macedonian Government with confidence in the Diaspora's resolve, the UMD (on this occasion) basically jumped on the 'democratic' bandwagon and ran with it. The role of an organisation representing the Macedonian Diaspora is not to be blind 'yes-men' for the Macedonian Government.

[Bill77]

What do you want me to elaborate on? Prior to the EU meeting in Brussels, Gruevski suggested that if a suitable name is accpetable to the government, it needs to go to a referendum. In other words blackmail the people if they vote in favour or against it!!!

Its quite obvious, as he maintaints the negotiations it will get to a stage that a referendum will be put to the citizens of RoM. What do you think they will vote? Considering people are struggling to make ends meet at the moment due to the crippling financial situation of the country.

He compounds the problem by taxing them more. The only shining light being promoted in RoM is the EU. Its no brainer what Gruevski is slowly trying to achieve, it will be the citizens being compromised to vote in favour...Most people (ordinary citizens) are aware in Maco of this tactic...This is where diaspora organisation/s need to take the government to task and rebel such tactics, instead blindly following government policies..UMD is very closely related to the VMRO party and they will never speak out on behalf of the diaspora...

What is obvious is Gruevski is playing his Diplomatic cards corectly so far. He is careful not to get on the wrong side of the worlds view regarding the negotiations and make our Nation look like the evil or imature side. That childish Behaviour is left up to Greece, who keep on shooting them selves in the foot and get rebuked for there actions.

I think its very smart the way Gruevski is dealing with the whole situation. He gives negotiators an impresion that we are profesional, peaceful, and mature in how we handle the whole proccess, which is in contrast to how our oposition works and is percieved. What is so clever about it all is, he does not slam the doors on every idea that is thrown towards him and scream, kick and cry about it, instead he will sugest the people would vote on it. This way, he knows for a fact that the people will not vote for it, also it would send two important messages to the world, A) Macedonia is owned by the people and a politician can't and has no right in deciding, especialy someone from over the border, B) Republic of Macedonia used a Democratic process to come to a conclusion and was not dictated to them.

Finaly This, Your Quote: "He compounds the problem by taxing them more. The only shining light being promoted in RoM is the EU. Its no brainer what Gruevski is slowly trying to achieve",

If people think taxing has something more to do with a Gruevski sinister plan and not the curent world financial situation, then They are being Dogmatic about it. Also promoting EU is not a problem. Its what everyone want's. But not at a cost. VMRO and The Macedonian People have made it clear. So by sugesting that promoting EU somehow sugests The Current VMRO Govermant and Gruevski are traitors or doing something against the best interests for the ROM is again wrong.

[Warrior]

What is obvious is Gruevski is playing his Diplomatic cards corectly so far. He is careful not to get on the wrong side of the worlds view regarding the negotiations and make our Nation look like the evil or imature side. That childish Behaviour is left up to Greece, who keep on shooting them selves in the foot and get rebuked for there actions.

I think its very smart the way Gruevski is dealing with the whole situation. He gives negotiators an impresion that we are profesional, peaceful, and mature in how we handle the whole proccess, which is in contrast to how our oposition works and is percieved. What is so clever about it all is, he does not slam the doors on every idea that is thrown towards him and scream, kick and cry about it, instead he will sugest the people would vote on it. This way, he knows for a fact that the people will not vote for it, also it would send two important messages to the world, A) Macedonia is owned by the people and a politician can't and has no right in deciding, especialy someone from over the border, B) Republic of Macedonia used a Democratic process to come to a conclusion and was not dictated to them.

Finaly This, Your Quote: "He compounds the problem by taxing them more. The only shining light being promoted in RoM is the EU. Its no brainer what Gruevski is slowly trying to achieve",

If people think taxing has something more to do with a Gruevski sinister plan and not the curent world financial situation, then They are being Dogmatic about it. Also promoting EU is not a problem. Its what everyone want's. But not at a cost. VMRO and The Macedonian People have made it clear. So by sugesting that promoting EU somehow sugests The Current VMRO Govermant and Gruevski are traitors or doing something against the best interests for the ROM is again wrong.

Fair enough that is your opinion.
The Macedonian governemt in this negotiations reminds me of an inexpirienced chess player. Sooner or later it will loose. They will be cornered eventually. Europe and USA one day will say we want results if you are going to be part of the negotiations. Enough is enough...

The taxing and promotion of the EU will have a direct impact on a possible referendum!! EU unfortuantely is presented to the Maco people as the mother saviour of all of their problems. Which is wrong!!!!

I dont think the EFC had any impact in 2008 on the macedonian economy. Prior to 2008 it was on its knees and during 2008 was on its knees. If someone that hasnt received a pay for 12 months and has never in the past paid any house tax, why enforce it on them now? In a critical time where everyone has to stick together and avoid divisions. How the hell are they going to pay??

I would give credit to Gruevski for being stubborn in the negotiations, but it will be a matter of time before the Yanks and the Europeans mellow him down or blackmail him. Get out while you can!!!!

Did you see the euphoria in Skopje of some of the citizens when possible proposed talks were going to be offered. Why do think they were kissing the EU flag? Because they love that flag. No, its becasue that might be the only option they have to get out of the misery. Look at the farmers and what they are losing because apparantly their is no market for their goods. If we are part of the EU all of their goods will be bought!! Year right!!! Do you think those people along with the Albanians will think twice about accepting RoM-Skopje or some other modified name. I highly doubt it. Its a plan strip people of their self respect through a financial hardship and then you can force anything you want down their throats!!!! Some might resist i agree BUT....

[Prolet]

Warrior, Gruevski lowered the taxes in Macedonia and now they are one of the lowest in Europe, having said that everyone must pay taxes even the popoj and Odzi who are having taxation agents knocking on their doors with Sudski Izvrshiteli, who cant afford to pay up they will take away their cars,tvs,chairs,tables etc

Its no coincidence that UJP got over 1 Billion Euros in taxes for the year of 2009, thats a record for us and it needs to keep going. Lets not forget that people go to jail for not paying taxes, for those who think otherwise well i urge them not to pay their bills,taxes for a few months and see what happens to them, what are we Somalia?? We have laws just like every other European Country they are low however everyone has to pay, before the laws existed and the taxes where much higher but nobody implemented them.

Think about it how are the Western Governments so rich?? They rape their citizens with high taxes, in some countries for every Euro people pay 47cents, thats all they do they tax everything while Gruevski is some kind of a demon for taxing much less, no wonder we are a poor country people dont pay anything to the Government. Now the Fines, well look at the state of Victoria it makes over $600 Million on fines each year if we include the other states its Billions and Billions people being fined for driving 61 in a 60 zone its all OK so why should it be any different in Stari Kraj?

[Jankovska]

Welcome Warrior- I agree with you 100%. The taxes and all different ways of taking people's money in Macedonia has come to an unaccaptable point. This has never been the case and the people have never been pushed this much. The same old gangsters are still free roaming the streets coz they have VMRO karticki. This will only push for the poor people of Macedonia to see the EU as our only hope. It's the most dangerous game so far played on the poor Macedonian people and we must see through it quick and do something about it. The legal system in Macedonia is a joke, the lies printed in the papers from our gov are old now. No one takes time to go talk to the poor invalid who hasn't got socijalno, or the single mum or the people who have to pay for having a chimeny and everything else. It's a NAzi way of handeling the tax issues, worst than the Turks. Izvsitel odi doma and takes what they want. You are given 7 days to clear your debts to the gov. It's easy to pay tax if you get paid regulary, but when you have to choose between bread for your child and tax you choose bread. My parents had one of those ustashi da im merat dvorot and apparently our dvor is some stupid big size. We don't have a dvor, it's karpi. So lovely supporters of our Nazi gov why don't you tell me where I should complain?
Worse the kazni they have come up with are a joke, 200, 300, 400 euros. How are you menat to pay that with a wage of 150 euros.
I am telling and I hope I don't ever have to say I told you so but Grujo is playing that tactic where he will push people as much as he can until all vote for a name change. And it will happen. No one should be brought to choose between their children and their country.
the fact that Grujo didn't answer the question when asked with a Yes or No just proves how strong he is on the name change. If it were me I know what I would answer; No fucking way ever.

[Jankovska]

He will be a vojvoda for me when he says "Negotiations stop now!"

I'll drink to that.

[Prolet]

I'll drink to that.

I wont

[Prolet]

Jankovska, A Nazi Government you say?? Great so here is what you should do.

Dont pay taxes in England and see what happens to you, lets see how long you will last they will either put you in jail or kick you out of the country.

No wonder we are a banana republic, people are saying that we shouldnt be paying taxes how is a country suppose to survive? No wonder we have shit roads,housing people dont pay for anything. The Sudski Izvrshiteli are the best thing that can happen, what if somebody owes you thousands of euros and you needed to feed your children what happens then?? That person says to you that they will never pay you so i guess its ok for them to steal your money and to never pay it back??

[Jankovska]

Omg will you ever grow up. Why shouldn't I pay taxes in Britain, I have a job and I can afford to. People in the UK without jobs, on benefits, (socijalno kaj nas ako treba da ti nacrtam) are given money by the gov not charged taxes. In the UK we have a set tax for your house, set tax on your wage, set tax on your car. In Macedonia they change like the weather. big difference. I can afford to pay my £120 monthly house tax but I person in Macedonia who has a wage of 6000 can not afford to pay 1500 tax that last year was 500 denari. It is a bannana republic, it's a joke. You think sudski izvrsiteli are a good think I think they are NAzi. In the UK you will be given time and time and time to pay your tax, you will be send reminders and when taken to court if your reasons are good enough you probably will be ok. But no one will force their way into your home (like the Turks did) and take you children's only entertainment, the TV. Stop bullshiting here on the forum and go live there for a little while. I want to see you feed your family on a 6000 denari neredovna plata a redovni smetki. So stop making excuses for Gruevski who rapes our law in every way possible and the poor Macedonian has to pay for it.

[Prolet]

Jankovska, In order for a sudski izvrshitel to come to your house, in order for them to take up the case they need a court order which means the company/government takes you to court for unpaid taxes/bills look at the Popoj they havnt payed tax since 1995 dont act smart with me, the law is there you are too busy reading anti-government newspapers. Just like Spaska Mitreva she was told 100 times to give custody to her ex husband she didnt so she went to jail for it, look at what happened with that Direktor za Inspekcii Sasho Akimovski he was razreshen for being recorded on how he was working dishonestly, look at the new Zakon Za Pushenje everybody is obeying it nobody has been fined yet what you are doing is promoting Bezredije, its like me here telling people to go and rob banks and shoot at others. When somebody tries to clean up the country all of the sudden he is a Nazi, well just so you know the UK was very close to going bankrupt and Gordon Brown is the most hated person there.

Jankovska, The same was said about the parking laws, people couldnt park their own cars infront of their buildings (Zgradi) because pazardzii would rock up and leave their cars in their spots all day long, now that they made it that everyone has to pay to park the spots are empty again, people complained that 25 denars was too expensive to pay however now everyone gets a parking spot, those who live in the area have the right to buy a pass in which they pay 200 denars a month and problem solved however we still have people complaining while they should ask people like yourself how much you pay to be able to drive to the city of London and then pay for a parking spot, its a bloody arm and a leg im telling you.

[Risto the Great]

Wow, an interesting and hugely opposing set of arguments here between Prolet and Jankovska. Thanks!
I am inclined to think Jankovska is correct but (hope) that this is a temporary pain in order to develop systems of Government that have the financial capacity to make a difference. Obviously much still needs to be done with bureaucracy in Macedonia. However, any developed country has laws that Prolet describes.

[Risto the Great]

I wont

Why Prolet? Why would you not be happy if Macedonia pulled out of negotiations immediately?

[Prolet]

Good Point Risto,

Once the whole issue is solved then i will celebrate, if you recall in 1994 people were celebrating when we where admitted to the UN under FYROM za sramota.

[Warrior]

Warrior, Gruevski lowered the taxes in Macedonia and now they are one of the lowest in Europe, having said that everyone must pay taxes even the popoj and Odzi who are having taxation agents knocking on their doors with Sudski Izvrshiteli, who cant afford to pay up they will take away their cars,tvs,chairs,tables etc

Its no coincidence that UJP got over 1 Billion Euros in taxes for the year of 2009, thats a record for us and it needs to keep going. Lets not forget that people go to jail for not paying taxes, for those who think otherwise well i urge them not to pay their bills,taxes for a few months and see what happens to them, what are we Somalia?? We have laws just like every other European Country they are low however everyone has to pay, before the laws existed and the taxes where much higher but nobody implemented them.

Think about it how are the Western Governments so rich?? They rape their citizens with high taxes, in some countries for every Euro people pay 47cents, thats all they do they tax everything while Gruevski is some kind of a demon for taxing much less, no wonder we are a poor country people dont pay anything to the Government. Now the Fines, well look at the state of Victoria it makes over $600 Million on fines each year if we include the other states its Billions and Billions people being fined for driving 61 in a 60 zone its all OK so why should it be any different in Stari Kraj?

Prolet how old are you?

When was the last time you were in Maco and mixed with the ordinary citizens outside of Skopje?

Once you answer the above, i will give you an explanation about your misconception of politics in Makedonija!!

[Warrior]

Welcome Warrior- .

Thank you.