The Macedonian Cause

[UMDiaspora.org]

SoM

Thanks for clarifying.

I take it that you're not prepared to respond to my initial question in public. Thanks for that too.

SoM, UMD would like to talk to the person who drafted the text to offer some suggestions/edits. The document is an excellent draft and UMD, like AMHRC, would back it once our suggestions/edits have been taken into consideration.

[UMDiaspora.org]

Edits

Yes SOM, it's the possibility misinterpretation that we are worried about. Perhaps cultural unification needs to be emphasised; though it depends ultimately, on the intention of the section. When I think of cultural, I think in terms of ethno-cultural in the present context - I suppose it's my training in social philosophy that leads me to think like this.

We are talking about the Macedonians in Egej being officially recognised by the Greek state; having Macedonian language classes funded by the Greek state; programs for de-stigmatisation etc. so that the Macedonians in Greece can finally begin to feel safe and at the same time begin to develop for themselves, a stronger cultural connection to the Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia - all leading to reconciliation; the end of repression and the healing of trans-generational trauma. Lets just avoid any possibility of misinterpretation, because the bigots in this dispute, love to twist our words, whenever they can.

So, all in all, this is a document that the AMHRC is prepared to back - much of it is already assumed by us in our work.


Cheers,

AMHRC.

AMHRC - great post.

In addition to several other suggestions we have to the document, perhaps one thing the editors of the document should add is a separate paragraph on the rights of Macedonians in Bulgaria, and in Greece. It does not have to be long, short and sweet too the point but it should reflect the problems Macedonians facing in Greece and Bulgaria.

The genocide part of the document is also insufficient. UMD believes Greece should recognize the genocide it commited against Macedonians, something to that effect would be good in the document.

More to come, once someone from UMD can speak over the phone to someone who wrote/edits the document.

[Soldier of Macedon]

SoM, UMD would like to talk to the person who drafted the text to offer some suggestions/edits. The document is an excellent draft and UMD, like AMHRC, would back it once our suggestions/edits have been taken into consideration.

UMDiaspora.org, if you read through the pages on the thread you will notice that a number of Macedonians have been given the opportunity to offer their suggestions. Not one person is responsible for developing the text, and everybody's opinions have been considered.

Thank you to both yourselves and the AMHRC for providing some suggestions, we will certainly try and incorporate them where appropriate in the text, and anticipate a follow up to bring this important document closer to completion.

[Rogi]

When I drafted the initial text of the Macedonian Cause, which has since been edited numerous times based on the feedback on many Macedonians, the following was included and remains unchanged:

The cultural and national unification of all Macedonians living in all parts of Macedonia; the Republic of Macedonia, Aegean Macedonia, Pirin Macedonia, Mala Prespa & Golo Brdo and Gora, as well as Macedonians throughout the world.

Now, I can see how that may be intentionally misinterpreted by some (I refer to the Greek posts on other forums which have done exactly that), to suggest it implies 'territorial aspirations' or that it relates to borders changing.

However, I figured the "...as well as Macedonians throughout the world" in that sentence would dispel those misinterpretations, as Macedonians live throughout the world and it is illogical to suggest that the sentence quoted above in any way implies territory or borders.

No, what is meant by cultural unification is the understanding of all Macedonians, throughout all of Macedonia and throughout the world, that we share the one and same language, history, traditions and culture. What I had in mind when writing this, was perhaps mostly related to the many Macedonians living in the Aegean part of Macedonia who I met and who had no idea that across the border to the north, there were Macedonians living there who speak the same language and share the same culture (the same people) and not 'Yugoslavs' or 'Serbs' as they thought. They were quite amazed when I explained I was from there (until then they considered me a 'nash', then they were confused, then I explained a short version of history, then they understood quite clearly).

The 'national unification' mentioned applies to the understanding of all Macedonians, in all of Macedonia and throughout the world, that they belong to the one and same people and nation (not necessarily nation-state). Yes, the absence of borders (as per the goal of the EU) would greatly assist in the achievement of this unification, but the focus is not territorial or related to the borders of any nation state, rather a unification of the people.

That said, if anyone has a suggestion to improve or perhaps more eloquently make the point that the above quoted sentence tries to make, then that is most appreciated and welcome.


The definition of the Macedonian Cause is now a work in progress. Many people are contributing to it, throughout a number of forums, email, etc, though the most up-to-date version is here in this thread (page 1). There is no single author, if an author were to be named, it would be signed 'The Macedonian People'. We're all working on it together to get it right and timeless. Some of us have different ideas (i.e. some view it as all-encompassing for all time including the Ottoman occupation of Macedonia, others view it as all-encompassing from after Ilinden and as a followup to the Krushevo Manifesto) and the public discussion on all suggestions is fantastic to date.

Some day, when we have it right, I would hope that every single Macedonian organisation would adopt it and, perhaps, the Macedonian Parliament could adopt it as the definition of the Macedonian Cause and national interest and perhaps include it in the Constitutional preamble.

[UMDiaspora.org]

Rogi

Rogi, you have done an excellent job, and once it is done, it should be translated in Macedonian and sent to all Macedonian MPs and government officials and as an open letter in the media.

[AMHRC]

Cultural

Rogi,

In our opinion, the word cultural, covers exactly what you are saying. The word national on the other hand, makes it ambiguous. "National" is not a word that has a universally agreed definition and that is why it is open to the misinterpretations suggested above - it can be seen to imply the political realm and the changing of borders etc.

The word "cultural" on the other hand, although again there is no universally agreed definition, safely implies the sharing of language, tradition, history and etc. The word "cultural" involves much more than what most people realise. Culture refers to a set of values that underpin the unity of a group, at the deepest levels. It is on the basis of such an understanding of the word culture, that some Western scholars have argued that the Ancient Macedonians were not Hellenes.

The founders of modern social philosophy; Weber, Simmel and others made convincing arguments on this type of definition of the word cultural. Moreover, it is the cultural argument - that is on the relativity of culture - that permitted the construction of a notion of human rights. The relativity of culture does not imply that 'anything goes', but it does protect the idea that all cultural groupings are justified in their existence and that it is the difference that this promotes in the modern world, which gives many people an existential justification; the purpose of life.

The only thing that needs to be avoided in this context, is bigotry. These differences need to be seen as something to celebrate; if for no other reason, than that they can and do, for many people, provide an existential justification (a purposeful/meaningful life) - as I asserted above.


Anyway, that's how I feel about it.


Cheers,

AMHRC.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I have changed it from this:

The cultural and national unification of all Macedonians living in all parts of Macedonia; the Republic of Macedonia, Aegean Macedonia, Pirin Macedonia, Mala Prespa & Golo Brdo and Gora, as well as Macedonians throughout the world.

To this:

The cultural unification and national solidarity of all Macedonians living in all parts of Macedonia; the Republic of Macedonia, Aegean Macedonia, Pirin Macedonia, Mala Prespa & Golo Brdo and Gora, as well as Macedonians throughout the world.

Let me know what you think.

[AMHRC]

Forgive me for being pedantic

SoM,

that looks much more precise to my eyes. Western politicians have a particular understanding of the word "national"; it involves citizenship, borders and etc. it's to do with the nature of states in their view. So we can say all we like about "oh we didn't mean changing borders etc."; but all this takes valuable time away from the essential issues - lack of human rights etc. and we wont necessarily even have a chance to explain the semantics.


So I like what you have suggested much better; though forgive me, I would like it even better if it just read: "the cultural unification and solidarity of all Macedonians..." etc. This conveys precisely what we mean, without any possibility of any accusations of territorial expansion and any other such misinterpretations.


I know that this may be coming across as petty; though believe me it comes from empirical knowledge gained via 18 years of meeting politicians from this country and elsewhere, on behalf of the AMHRC.


We hope we are not proving to be a nuisance.


Cheers.

[indigen]

So I like what you have suggested much better; though forgive me, I would like it even better if it just read: "the cultural unification and solidarity of all Macedonians..." etc. This conveys precisely what we mean, without any possibility of any accusations of territorial expansion and any other such misinterpretations.

"All Macedonians" is very ambiguous and very impricise term to use, IMO. Unless the term ethnic (or indigenous) is prefixed to Macedonians, it creates confusion as to which Macedonians we are referring to, e.g. all citizens of Macedonia (Republic of) are Macedonians by nationality.

[Risto the Great]

Correct Indigen.
We know who the real Macedonians are. But Greece has thrown almost a billion dollars at the situation to create confusion with the term. "Ethnic Macedonians" is very clear in relation to this point.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Regarding this part:

The achievement of the Republic of Macedonia as a safe, stable, economically prosperous and abundant state; a state which cares for and provides opportunities for finding love and establishing a family, opportunities for economic prosperity, opportunities for personal development, health and well-being, opportunities for higher education, the guarantee of internationally recognised freedoms and rights and the opportunities for the pursuit of happiness for all Macedonians living inside and outside of the borders of the Republic of Macedonia, as well as all loyal citizens of the Republic of Macedonia.

The absolute recognition and acceptance of

1) the unchangeable national, ethno-cultural and historic name of Macedonia,
2) the unique Macedonian language,
3) the unique Macedonian culture, symbols, folklore and ethnic identity,
4) the entire Macedonian history and its continuity, as well as
5) the monarchs, revolutionaries, writers, poets and all heroes of Macedonian history and their ethnic Macedonian identity, and
6) the Macedonian Orthodox Church,

by the International Community, the neighbouring states to the Republic of Macedonia and by the Macedonian people.

I think it should read like this:

Ensuring the Republic of Macedonia is a safe, stable, economically prosperous and abundant state, which cares and provides for the health and well-being of all its citizens, with the guarantee of all internationally recognised freedoms and rights; and provides all its citizens with opportunities for finding love, establishing a family, higher education, personal development, economic prosperity and the overall pursuit of happiness.

Ensuring the absolute recognition, acknowledgement and acceptance by the International Community of;

1) the unique national, ethno-cultural and historic name of Macedonia,
2) the unique Macedonian people, language and identity
3) the unique Macedonian culture, symbols and folklore
4) the unique Macedonian ancestry, heritage and history in its entirety
5) the unique Macedonian Orthodox Church

I have reworded some of it to tidy up the sentences, and replaced 'unchangeable' with unique for the purpose of remaining consistent in the terminology of the numbered items listed. I feel that if we give to much emphasis on the 'possibility of change' it gives the 'notion of change' more credibility. As far as i'm concerned, a name change is not even in the picture of our cause thus not even up for consideration, the fact that our name cannot be changed is a given and shouldn't have to be reinforced as if we are trying to hold on to something (which already belongs to us).

Any criticisms or objections?

[Risto the Great]

Fine SoM, but 1) through 5) above don't really need "unique" ... I think it is superfluous.

Ensuring the absolute recognition, acknowledgement and acceptance by the International Community of;

1) the national, ethno-cultural and historic name of Macedonia,
2) the Macedonian people, language and identity
3) the Macedonian culture, symbols and folklore
4) the Macedonian ancestry, heritage and history in its entirety
5) the Macedonian Orthodox Church

... still reads fine.

[AMHRC]

Excellent

That, in my opinion is excellent SoM and I agree with Indigen and Risto, that the word ethnic should be added - actually I meant to have it there myself; my typing did not keep up with my thinking.


Cheers,


AMHRC.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I know that this may be coming across as petty; though believe me it comes from empirical knowledge gained via 18 years of meeting politicians from this country and elsewhere, on behalf of the AMHRC.

We hope we are not proving to be a nuisance.

Thanks AMHRC, it is not petty at all, this needs to be fine-tuned to the smallest detail so we are all comfortable with it.

I also see Indigen's point, however indigenous could also refer to Vlachs or Gypsies as they have no other home but Macedonia, while 'Ethnic Macedonians' is annoying sometimes as it is still a prefix that, when generally speaking about the Macedonian people, is not required.

How about just the 'Macedonian people', as in the below:

The cultural unification and solidarity of the Macedonian people living in all parts of Macedonia; the Republic of Macedonia, Aegean Macedonia, Pirin Macedonia, Mala Prespa & Golo Brdo and Gora, as well as Macedonians throughout the world.

[Soldier of Macedon]

RtG, how about this:

Ensuring the Republic of Macedonia is a safe, stable, economically prosperous and abundant state, which cares and provides for the health and well-being of all its citizens, with the guarantee of all internationally recognised freedoms and rights; and provides all its citizens with opportunities for finding love, establishing a family, higher education, personal development, economic prosperity and the overall pursuit of happiness.

Ensuring the absolute recognition, acknowledgement and acceptance by the International Community of the unique;

1) national, ethno-cultural and historic name of Macedonia,
2) Macedonian people, language and identity
3) Macedonian culture, symbols and folklore
4) Macedonian ancestry, heritage and history in its entirety
5) Macedonian Orthodox Church

What do you reckon?