Macedonian Truth Forum

Macedonian Truth Forum (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/index.php)
-   Exposing Lies and Propaganda (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17)

Amphipolis 06-25-2017 09:35 AM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;169761]Thank you. And nevermind my question. You are not in the place to know the answer I should recheck the page. But if you are curious what I meant was is that census (based on families ex 1762 Greek families) related to the Ottoman sites like those that we just discussed above.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it's the same (indirect) census of Christian population (Muslims were not taxed) that was presented in post#584 and refers to a certain district of NW Peloponnese.

Carlin 06-25-2017 09:50 AM

1) What was the methodology and approach used to determine which language was spoken where? What data or documents were used to gather this information? If I am not mistaken, we are talking about the 15th century here - this is [U]long time ago[/U]. I have no doubt that the Orthodox clergy, churchmen and others associated with the church (and also merchants) spoke Greek - but languages/dialects did the masses speak?

2) Whence the names: Arvanokastro, Politsa, Franka Villa, Garditsko, Mokiste, Vesini, Porta, Sandameri?

tchaiku 06-25-2017 09:51 AM

According to the indirect census Albanians were above Greeks by a single percent. Reliable or not it helps us to recognize a significant Albanian presence in the region.

"Half of Peloponnese land was actually occupied by the Albanians at that time and they attempted to get the other half, too, both by force of arms and by negotiation with Sultan Mehmed II.”

Carlin 06-25-2017 10:54 PM

[QUOTE=VMRO;169753]Great find Carlin, love your work![/QUOTE]

Thank you - although (most of the time) I am simply sharing other's work and what's out there in general.

tchaiku 06-26-2017 04:13 AM

Foreigners of the Land

Who were these Turkish-speaking Orthodox people? There are two theories about their origin. The first one claims that they are Byzantines who underwent a Turkification process due to mutual relationships at the time of the Seljuks. The second theory claims that they were Turkic Christians who settled in Anatolia before the Seljuks and Ottomans converted them to Islam. The second theory seems more reasonable. Professor J. Eckmann and Atanas Monof agree. Moreover, the view that the Christian Oghuz and Pecheneg Turkic people who sided with the Seljuks in the Battle of Manzikert in 1071 were the forefathers of this community, is a historical fact. Indeed, small Turkic Orthodox communities called "Rumyj" are found in Ukraine and the Caucasus.

Some of these Turkish speaking Orthodox Christians are called the Karamanlides. Evliya «elebi, a 17th century Ottoman traveler, mentioned this community in his writings and says that they are of Turkish origin. Their Turkish accent was the same as the other locals and they used Greek and Latin words as well. They printed and published books, mostly the Bible, and newspapers in the Ottoman Empire and abroad using the Greek alphabet, which they changed a little. They were religiously affiliated to the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. In the Ottoman era, hymns and prayers were chanted in Karamanlides Turkish at local churches in the neighborhoods that were mostly populated by the Greek speaking community. While non-Muslims were called "foreigners (Giaour) with a hat" by the Muslim population, Karamanlı Greeks were called "Ellik" (Giaour), meaning "foreigners of the land."

Sultan Mehmet the Conqueror settled the Karamanlides in Istanbul's Yedikule district following the conquest of Constantinople. Most of these Karamanlides managed jewelry shops in the Grand Bazaar, but they later moved to other districts and neighborhoods in the city. There were many soap traders, dried nuts and fruits seller, middleman, cheese mongers and wine distributers from this community. Since most of Istanbul's grocers were Karamanlides, there is a character named "Karamanlı grocer" in traditional Turkish theater.

[url]https://www.dailysabah.com/feature/2016/06/17/the-karamanlides-a-turkish-speaking-greek-orthodox-community-in-anatolia[/url]

tchaiku 06-28-2017 03:37 PM

In the cadastral register of the years 1582-1583 of the Delvina sanctuary of Delvina, stored in the Sultan Archives of Istanbul, now called the Archives of the Prime Minister's Office, it is clear that the registered population was entirely Albanian. While in the cadastral register of Himara 1520-1536, as well as cadastral records of the districts of Delvina, Saranda and Gjirokastra and of a part of the Chameria of the 1690s, it appears that until 1690, [U]Greek minorities in Albania did [B]not [/B]exist[/U]. In all these areas, the names of all residents were Albanian. Likewise, in Himara's censuses in the early 16th century, it is impressive that the names Llesh, Gjon, Gjin, Nue were dominating throughout that area.


In these registers of Livas of Vlora are noted the names and surnames of the families of Palasa, DhŽrmiu, Himara, Piluri etc. It is regrettable that some scholars are based on statements allegedly that some families were settled there in 1475, coming from the north of Albania. We know that in the census of 1431, Kruja had 140 houses. Also, the villages of Kruja we have registered. Some scholars say that the seizures have come from Kruja, which, according to them, seems to have had thousands of inhabitants. History has sealed the fact that the shutdowns, as well as the anthems, are indigenous residents. It should be noted that the overwhelming majority of himariots are kurveleshas. Venetian documents clearly show Himara Albanian. It is worth mentioning here also a letter that the inhabitants of this province wrote to the Pope in 1577, they sign from Himara, that is, from Epirus of Albanians."

Amphipolis 06-28-2017 05:01 PM

That's not what Wikipedia says.
[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himara"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himara[/URL]
Can you share some of these data and sources?

Carlin 06-28-2017 08:20 PM

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/2017-06-28_1311_zpslymqq8wo.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/2017-06-28_1311_zpslymqq8wo.png[/IMG][/URL]

In the 21st volume (published in Bonn in 1840 under the supervision of Immanuel Bekker), texts of Ephraim (late 13th - first half of the 14th century) are found. In verse 7674, Ephraim describes the inhabitants of Illyria as Albanians. More importantly, in verses 7671-7674 we find which regions and areas the [I]Albanians[/I] passed through and ultimately colonized in large numbers.

In Latin:

[COLOR="Blue"][B]……[U]THESSALIAM[/U] OCCUPAVIT CUM [U]ACHAIA[/U],
ET MACEDONIAM CUM THRACIAE PARTICULA,
DALMATIAM ACQUISIVIT CUM EPIDAURO,
ILLYRI TRACTOS MONTICOLAS ALBANOS[/B][/COLOR]

Verses 7671-7674 in Greek are:

……χρατεΐ Θεσσαλίας τε συν Αχαΐα
Μακεδονίας χαι μέρους τίνος θράχης
αίρει Λαλματίαν τι συν Έπιδάμνω
Ιλλυρίδα γην, Αλβανούς οριτρόφονς

URL:
[url]https://athens.indymedia.org/post/271457/[/url]

tchaiku 06-29-2017 12:44 AM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;169793]That's not what Wikipedia says.
[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himara"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himara[/URL]
Can you share some of these data and sources?[/QUOTE]
That is all I have. Wikipedia is highly manipulated by the Greeks. Why it ignores the Vlach farmers? Why it ignores the fact that in your country religion and nationality are nearly synonyms? Why it portrays Fallmerayer's book as Nazi guide? And much more.

Albanian Christians were depended by the Greek church and so were the schools till the 20th century. The text writes Himarotes but who were those Himariotes that joined Gjon Kastrioti II?

"They also promised to transfer their religious allegiance to Rome, provided that they will retain their Eastern Orthodox liturgical customs since the majority of the population was Greek and didn't understand the Frankish language.[24]"

Yes but did those Orthodox Christians understand Albanian?

Greek =Orthodox = Epirotes = Albanian

Weren't Arbereshe called Greci too?

Amphipolis 06-29-2017 12:45 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;169795]
In Latin:

[COLOR="Blue"][B]……[U]THESSALIAM[/U] OCCUPAVIT CUM [U]ACHAIA[/U],
ET MACEDONIAM CUM THRACIAE PARTICULA,
DALMATIAM ACQUISIVIT CUM EPIDAURO,
ILLYRI TRACTOS MONTICOLAS ALBANOS[/B][/COLOR]

Verses 7671-7674 in Greek are:

……χρατεΐ Θεσσαλίας τε συν Αχαΐα
Μακεδονίας χαι μέρους τίνος θράχης
αίρει Λαλματίαν τι συν Έπιδάμνω
Ιλλυρίδα γην, Αλβανούς οριτρόφονς

[/QUOTE]

This small part is presented in a misleading manner. One may wrongly think Albanians were in Thessaly, Achaea, Thrace or Macedonia.

It only says mountainous Albanians lived around Epidamnos/Dyrrachium (not Epidaurus).

[URL="https://books.google.gr/books?id=BT0TAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA310&lpg=PA310&dq=%CE%B1%CE%AF%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B9+%CE%9B%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%B1%CE%BD+%CF%84%CE%B9+%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD+%CE%88%CF%80%CE%B9%CE%B4%CE%AC%CE%BC%CE%BD%CF%89&source=bl&ots=9rwDb6bXLb&sig=x8y4BrXd6a7cPtBJBMGTC0RnsIg&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyvM6dq-LUAhWrKsAKHWHzCkIQ6AEILzAB#v=onepage&q=%CE%B1%CE%AF%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B9%20%CE%9B%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%B1%CE%BD%20%CF%84%CE%B9%20%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD%20%CE%88%CF%80%CE%B9%CE%B4%CE%AC%CE%BC%CE%BD%CF%89&f=false"]https://books.google.gr/books?id=BT0TAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA310&lpg=PA310&dq=%CE%B1%CE%AF%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B9+%CE%9B%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%B1%CE%BD+%CF%84%CE%B9+%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD+%CE%88%CF%80%CE%B9%CE%B4%CE%AC%CE%BC%CE%BD%CF%89&source=bl&ots=9rwDb6bXLb&sig=x8y4BrXd6a7cPtBJBMGTC0RnsIg&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyvM6dq-LUAhWrKsAKHWHzCkIQ6AEILzAB#v=onepage&q=%CE%B1%CE%AF%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B9%20%CE%9B%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%B1%CE%BD%20%CF%84%CE%B9%20%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD%20%CE%88%CF%80%CE%B9%CE%B4%CE%AC%CE%BC%CE%BD%CF%89&f=false[/URL]


=


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:05 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Macedonian Truth Organisation