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Amphipolis 07-22-2020 01:40 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183526]Actually, none of it is answered. There is not a single older source referenced in the text that refers to Kozani as Kosdiani, that mentions the Epirus Kosdiani or Paliokozdani. [/QUOTE]

The first reference to Kozani is in an Ottoman document of 1498-1502, according to which Kozani is the smallest among 36 settlements of the district (kaza) around the town of Servia.

According to info i found in another essay, the Byzantine document mentioned before may be fake (it wasn't about the name anyway).

The original Kostiani or Kostaniani of Epirus is believed to be located North of Premeti (in today's Albania) and had been totally destroyed by the end of that decade (1390s). This village should not be confused with another village of the same name that is also close (inside modern Greece, close to the Albanian borders).

The episode concerning the destruction of Kostiani, is about a woman called Argyro that believed people of Kostiani murdered her son and hired an army of murderers to destroy the village.

The migrating populations were trilingual, Greek, Albanian and Vlach. According to Patrinelis, this isn't about Muslim oppression as there were hardly Muslims (around 3%) at that area.

[URL="https://edymme.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/takiatzhs.pdf"]https://edymme.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/takiatzhs.pdf[/URL]
[URL="http://balkaneana.eu/explore/uploads/pdfs/560d0489592a8.pdf"]http://balkaneana.eu/explore/uploads/pdfs/560d0489592a8.pdf[/URL]

Carlin15 07-22-2020 06:58 PM

The French entry for Kozani [url]https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozani[/url] states as follows:
"Le nom, probablement d'origine slavonne ("Koža") signifie "écorce, cuir" (en particulier "cuir de chčvre")."

Translation: [B]The name, probably of Slavonic origin ("Koža") means "bark, leather" (in particular "goat leather").[/B]

In the second paragraph under section [I]Histoire[/I], it further states:
"Pendant le XVIIe sičcle et le XVIIIe sičcle, les Valaques de la ville entretiennent des relations commerciales suivies avec les pays d'Europe centrale et danubienne, qui apportent ŕ la ville une grande prospérité."

The translation for this is: [B]During the seventeenth century and the eighteenth century, [U]the city's Wallachians[/U] maintained continuous trade relations with the countries of Central and Danubian Europe, which brought the city great prosperity.[/B]

Carlin15 07-22-2020 07:42 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183528]I'm quite familiar with Kozani and the theories about its name. I have worked (but not lived) there for a short period and I used to think that I partly (like 1/8th) come from Kozani as my great grant-father (post-1850s) had a second nickname-surname, [B][U]Kozanitis (i.e. man from Kozani). I only recently learnt that I don’t, and that he was just doing business in Kozani, always travelling there and that’s why they got that surname[/U][/B].[/QUOTE]

Interesting. Are these second "nicknames-surnames" strategies common in modern Greece, based on the scenario you described? That is, your great grant-father was [I]just doing business[/I] in Kozani, and ended up with that second surname? If you don't mind, if he was not from Kozani, did you find out where he was originally from?

[My great-grandfather was traveling and doing a lot of business in Salonica, but never ended up with any second nicknames-surnames -- at least not that I am aware of.]

Carlin15 07-22-2020 08:57 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183536]The "Hellenism" of the Vlachs in Greece. Surreal. Anyway. If you're suggesting that a lot of Vlachs live in Kozani, I would agree. I have met people from there in the past and they have told me the same, even some of their surnames are a dead giveaway. However, I still don't see the connection between Kozani and this apparent Epirus Kosdiani. Have you found any older sources that refer to Kosdiani anywhere?[/QUOTE]

So, I just found this long 'article' - [I][B]Kozani: a stab at etymology[/B][/I]:
[url]http://hellenisteukontos.blogspot.com/2009/09/kozani-stab-at-etymology.html[/url]

I won't copy and paste the entire article but here is the conclusion:

- "... phonologically the shift from Kósdiani to Kozáni does seem a little forced."
- "So the derivation of Kozáni from Kósdiani has problems. But as it turns out, both Kozáni and Kósdiani seem to have a Slavonic origin anyway, so it's a distinction that doesn't matter."

Amphipolis 07-22-2020 09:32 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;183545]Interesting. Are these second "nicknames-surnames" strategies common in modern Greece, based on the scenario you described? That is, your great grant-father was [I]just doing business[/I] in Kozani, and ended up with that second surname? If you don't mind, if he was not from Kozani, did you find out where he was originally from?

[My great-grandfather was traveling and doing a lot of business in Salonica, but never ended up with any second nicknames-surnames -- at least not that I am aware of.][/QUOTE]

He lived in the exact opposite (Eastern) side of Macedonia, in Eleutheroupolis/Pravi. What's weird about this guy is that half of his children (including my grandmother) adopted his original surname while the other half adopted the nickname. My own father didn't really know or care much and the story was clarified for me only 3-4 years ago when I met a cousin that bears the Kozanitis name.

It's not uncommon. For instance, the popular author Freddy Germanos has this surname because his grandfather studied in Germany, not because he was German.

Amphipolis 07-22-2020 09:49 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;183546]So, I just found this long 'article' - [I][B]Kozani: a stab at etymology[/B][/I]:
[url]http://hellenisteukontos.blogspot.com/2009/09/kozani-stab-at-etymology.html[/url]

I won't copy and paste the entire article but here is the conclusion:

- "... phonologically the shift from Kósdiani to Kozáni does seem a little forced."
- "So the derivation of Kozáni from Kósdiani has problems. But as it turns out, both Kozáni and Kósdiani seem to have a Slavonic origin anyway, so it's a distinction that doesn't matter."[/QUOTE]

I believe the key info is this

[B]The first reference to Kozani is in an Ottoman document of 1498-1502, according to which Kozani is the smallest among 36 settlements of the district (kaza) around the town of Servia.[/B]

That means that a 100 years after the arrivals described, the name was established and Kozani was the smallest settlement. I don't know if that means 10 or 30 houses, but it's so insignificant that searching who or how or why formed the name is a difficult task and means very little. The same goes for most towns and villages, their very origins are obscure.

100 years later, at 1618 Kozani (a solely Christian town) has 200 houses and four churches. Another 100 years later, at 1745 it becomes ecclesiastical capital of the district instead of Servia.

Soldier of Macedon 07-22-2020 10:29 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;183546]So, I just found this long 'article' - [I][B]Kozani: a stab at etymology[/B][/I]:
[url]http://hellenisteukontos.blogspot.com/2009/09/kozani-stab-at-etymology.html[/url]

I won't copy and paste the entire article but here is the conclusion:

- "... phonologically the shift from Kósdiani to Kozáni does seem a little forced."
- "So the derivation of Kozáni from Kósdiani has problems. But as it turns out, both Kozáni and Kósdiani seem to have a Slavonic origin anyway, so it's a distinction that doesn't matter."[/QUOTE]
Thanks Carlin. Even the OP has the sense to concede it is Macedonian (despite knowing he may receive backlash from his fellow Greeks).
[QUOTE][Non-Greeks will notice that I speak vaguely of Slavonic, when we all know *which* Slavonic language I'm talking about. But I'm not feeling like getting into needless argy-bargy with those of my readers who don't want to call it "Macedonian"; and since I'm talking about 1400 and not 1950, I may just get away with it...][/QUOTE]
I found the comments section below interesting. One guy says it was already called Kozani when the 'Slavs' got there and another is still pushing the Latin Cosa theory. Leaving that stupidity aside, there are some more sensible comments too.
[QUOTE="Pierre MacKay"]I know Ko'zani from the almost 6 months I spent walking [B]in the region in 1960—1961 and, when I was there, the dwindling number of Slavophones (they were [U]being persuaded that it would be better for them to move further north[/U]) called it Ko'zhani and the Hellenophones called it Ko'zani[/B]. That would seem to me to be one of the best arguments for the accent. W. M. Leake, bless him, gives a stress accent for all the contemporary placenames he records, and in his day it was Ko'zani. Felix de Beaujour might also be helpful. But the best source if you need to use toponyms for linguistic history, is the Austrian General Staff maps created in a resurvey between 1890 and about 1915. The surveyors had no loony chauvinist ideas about what they were doing (at least not in the southern Balkans). They recorded what they heard from what they judged to be the majority population of the location. These maps are the last honest historical record from the late Ottoman period and illustrate the delightful “Macédoine” of settlement that survived until the ethnic cleansing that folllowed the first Balkan War. They can be seen at: lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm

You don't need to know Hungarian to use this beautifully organized site. Simply find the sheet you need on the general outline and click on it. There is a magnifying glass provided so that you can look at the part you want. Kózani is in the upper right quadrant of sheet 39-40 Joannina. [B]Kozani is spelled out with [U]a diacritical over the z[/U], which indicates that the Austrian surveyors saw it as still predominantly slavophone[/B]. Unfortunately, they did not add stress accents.[/QUOTE]
Then there are the comments of this clown below.
[QUOTE="TAK"]......we have to [B]make sure that -an(i) is meaningful in Slavic to justify a Slavic etymology from Kóza (and [U]from what I could find from readings and friends it is not[/U][/B] - on this an expert's opinion would be useful and is still required.[/QUOTE]
Umm, is this guy for real? It doesn't take an expert. Just look at a map with place names from Macedonia, both old and new. Zagoričani, Loznani, Dragožani, Raštani, Peštani, Dabjani, Galičani, Vevčani, Topolčani, Količani, Krivogaštani, Studeničani, Kočani, etc.
[QUOTE]Additionally, from what I know "Kózani" was never generalized among Hellenophones (it is not today and it was not in the early 1990s when I spent a couple of months there as a soldier), and in written Greek sources from the 18th c. onwards the name is exclusively recorded as "Kozáni": you may find examples of such sources in Κοβεντάρειος Βιβλιοθήκη , though the quality is not always great. I restrict myself to two easily readable examples: the first is Megdanis's manuscript that I have already mentioned (the link will take you to p. 6 where Κοζάνη is easily discernible). The second comes from another important local scholar of the period of the Greek Enlightenment, Michail Perdikaris (1766-1828) and it is a manuscript dated in 1805 (the link will take you to the title page where again Κοζάνη is easily discernible). Even if I accepted, for the sake of argument, that in all the period from 18th-20th c. the city was generally called "Kózani" and written "Kozáni", I would still have to explain why this was so, and how, in linguistic terms, "Kózani" became "Kozáni". Does "Kozáni" sound more "Greek" than "Kózani"? I seriously doubt it.[/QUOTE]
Whatever the accent is, the word is not Greek. It is Macedonian, 100%. I think most Macedonians would put the stress on the [B]o[/B] rather than the [B]a[/B], so it would be pronounced K[B]o[/B]žani rather than Kož[B]a[/B]ni. But perhaps some of the brothers from south of the artificial border can advise how it is pronounced in their dialects.

Soldier of Macedon 07-22-2020 11:12 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183538]The original Kostiani or Kostaniani of Epirus is believed to be located North of Premeti (in today's Albania) and had been totally destroyed by the end of that decade (1390s).[/QUOTE]
Is this Kostiani in Epirus mentioned in any contemporary record while it existed?
[QUOTE]The episode concerning the destruction of Kostiani, is about a woman called Argyro that believed people of Kostiani murdered her son and hired an army of murderers to destroy the village. The migrating populations were trilingual, Greek, Albanian and Vlach.[/QUOTE]
Is the destruction of the village or the migration of the 'trilingual populations' mentioned in any contemporary record around the time it happened?
[QUOTE]According to Patrinelis, this isn't about Muslim oppression as there were hardly Muslims (around 3%) at that area.[/QUOTE]
That contradicts the other sources you've referenced.
[QUOTE]The first reference to Kozani is in an Ottoman document of 1498-1502, according to which Kozani is the smallest among 36 settlements of the district (kaza) around the town of Servia. That means that a 100 years after the arrivals described, the name was established and Kozani was the smallest settlement.[/QUOTE]
Are you suggesting the name changed from Kosdiani to Kozani in 100 years? Were there any Ottoman surveys or census' in the area prior to 1498?

Karposh 07-23-2020 04:05 AM

[QUOTE][I]...We have to make sure that [B][U]ani[/U][/B] is meaningful in Slavic to justify a Slavic etymology from Koza (and from what I could find from readings and friends, it is not). On this, an expert's opinion would be useful and is still required.[/I][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183549]
Umm, is this guy for real? It doesn't take an expert. Just look at a map with place names from Macedonia, both old and new. Zagoričani, Loznani, Dragožani, Raštani, Peštani, Dabjani, Galičani, Vevčani, Topolčani, Količani, Krivogaštani, Studeničani, Kočani, etc.[/QUOTE]

A quick Google search for village names in the republic from different regions gave me the following village names ending in [B]ani[/B]. There were many also with the suffix [B]eni[/B] and I though it was worthwhile listing them as well (I have shown them in red). Obviously the list below is not exhaustive ad is only scratching the surface as I couldn't be bothered researching other municipalities but I think we get the picture. You mentioned some from Aegean Macedonia too SOM. I'm sure there are many more village names over there that end with the suffix [B][U]ani[/U][/B].

The idiot making the observation that he can't find any meaningful examples of the suffix's use in "Slavic" and that an expert is needed to verify any findings is ether willfully ignorant or a complete numbskull.

[B]Bitola Region:[/B]
• Bareshani
• Crnichani
• Dragozhani
• Karamani
• Kazhani
• Kukurechani
• Loznani
• Novoselani
• Obershani
• Rashtani
• Sekirani
• Zlokukyani
[COLOR="Red"]• Dobroveni
• Oleveni
• Zhabeni[/COLOR]

[B]Prespa Region:[/B]
• Podmochani
• Krani
• Ezerani
[COLOR="red"]• Drmeni
• Kriveni
• Gorno Dupeni
• Dolno Dupeni[/COLOR]

[B]Ohrid Region[/B]
• Elshani
• Peshtani
• Trojani

[B]Prilep Region[/B]
• Galichani
• Peshtani
• Smolani
• Topolchani
• Veprchani
• Veselchani
• Zagorani

[B]Veles Region[/B]
• Novochani
• Rashtani

[B]Kavadarci Region[/B]
• Brushani
• Koshani

Karposh 07-23-2020 04:45 AM

[QUOTE]The derivation of the name Metsovo—from the words Mitsous and Mesovounon or from the unattested Slav word *Mẹčovo, meaning bear-place—which has been proposed by academics and historians, is not confirmed by linguistic research. On the contrary, there appears to be an etymological relation between the Vlach Minʤu and the Greek Metsovo, the latter being a combination of the stem Mets and the Slavic-ending ovo.[/QUOTE]

Mechovo is apparently an unattested Slavic word for the place name Metsovo according to the genius in the above quote before he/she goes onto clumsily sell the case for a Vlach or Greek derivation for the word. However, the case for a Macedonian origin of the name grows stronger when you consider that, in Macedonian, the diminutive form of Mechka (a bear) is Metsa. Often, when parents speak to their children (especially during story time) a bear is often referred to as “Baba Metsa” that is, Grandma Bear. Regardless of whether the original word was Mechovo and the current term, Metsovo, an apparent bastardisation of the original, both Mechovo and Metsovo work in Macedonian and have exactly the same meaning. The latter being a term of endearment for a bear.

Karposh 07-23-2020 05:08 AM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183537]
2. Kozani DID have a tanning industry, but most of the info we can find is about later periods, after the name was established.[/QUOTE]

It doesn’t necessarily have to have been a tanning/leather industry, that could possibly have given rise to the name Kozhani. I just mentioned that out of curiosity. A place trading in “Ovchka Kozha” i.e. Sheep Skin, could have given rise to the name. We know Vlahs made up a big proportion of the population of that town back in the day and, sheep herding, was the main preoccupation for the Vlahs. I just googled the word Vlah and was amazed to see numerous old images of Vlah shepherds covered in sheep skin from, literally, head to toe – sheepskin hats, sheepskin coats, sheepskin boots, etc. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the town was famous for its sheep skins.

Liberator of Makedonija 07-23-2020 06:15 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;183543] [U]the city's Wallachians[/U] maintained continuous trade relations with the countries of Central and Danubian Europe, which brought the city great prosperity.[/B][/QUOTE]


Central Europe, what did I say :14::14:

Liberator of Makedonija 07-23-2020 06:22 AM

SoM, what year is that Austrian report dated? Other reports from earlier in the 20th century seem to indicate Kožani as being a predominantly Hellenised Vlach town, but this Austrian report suggests Macedonian speakers were the majority at the time of the survey

Soldier of Macedon 07-23-2020 07:05 AM

LoM, the Austrian military maps were developed over several years. According to the below, they were started in 1869 and finished early in WWI.

[url]https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:3rd_Military_Mapping_Survey_of_Austria-Hungary&from=A[/url]

The person who was quoted earlier indicated that there were "slavophones" (Macedonians) in Kožani as late as the 1960's. I don't know what the ratio was between Macedonians and Vlachs but I don't see why Vlachs would pronounce the name differently to Macedonians unless they were using it from a Greek perspective (ž > z), where it may have eventually become the norm for them. It could also just be that an Austrian official obtained the name from a Vlach who lived among Macedonians and couldn't be bothered pretending to be a Greek in that moment. Note that Vlachs in Kruševo don't pronounce name of the town as Krusevo. I think the same can apply when they pronounce Mečovo (even if they have later developed their own name based on the original Macedonian). There is no rule in their language which would dictate that Vlachs must pronounce it as Metsovo. If they do pronounce it like that, it is because of years of Greek propaganda and education.

Check this link: [url]https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozani[/url]

It is the Romanian language page for Kozani. It suggests that in Vlach (Aromână in Romanian) the name is Cojani. Phonetically, that is the same as Kožani.

Karposh 07-23-2020 08:01 AM

It’s odd that Mechovo/Metsovo, in the Zagoria region of Epirus is not a Slavic word but the nearby villages of Tsepelovo and Kapeshovo are in fact originally Slavic names according to Wikipedia. What’s more, even the name Zagoria itself is originally a Slavic word which means “Behind the Mountain”. And yet, they fail to see (or more correctly, refuse to see) the Slavic/Macedonian origins of the name Mechovo/Metsovo.

Soldier of Macedon 07-23-2020 08:59 AM

While we're on the topic of Macedonian toponyms that are misleadingly portrayed by some people on Wikipedia as having a Greek etymology, observe the following on Bogatsko from the Greek Wikipedia page (English translation). Unsurprisingly, there is no explanation of the name on the English Wikipedia page.
[QUOTE][url]https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%92%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%B1%CF%84%CF%83%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8C_%CE%9A%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%AC%CF%82[/url]

For the origin of the name "Vogatsakis" there are two main versions. One mentions that it is the Greek version of the Turkish "Bogaz Kioi", which meant "Village of Bougazios", as the village is built in "bogazi" i.e. at the end of a narrow ravine. So "Bogaz Kioi" became "Bogatsko" and then "Vogatsikos". The other version states that Vogatsian is named after "Bogatsia", a type of bread made at festive and other social events. Vogatsikos in Turkish was also referred to as "Genti Kioi" i.e. "Heptachori", a name that has its roots in the history of the village, as Vogatsikos is the union of seven older settlements in the wider region for fear of the Turks. Another version is that the name of the village comes from the Bulgarian language: in Bulgarian the word "болат" (bogat/vogat) means "rich" and the ending "ско" (sko) is often found in the place names. In addition, many villages in the area were Bulgarian-speaking at the beginning of the 20th century.[/QUOTE]
Bogatsko is in Macedonia and is without doubt a Macedonian word. There is documented evidence of the Macedonian language being spoken in that village from the 16th century. The editors of the Wikipedia page are attempting to raise doubt by mentioning alternative "theories" about a Turkish ravine or a piece of bread. Give me a break. And this is the objectivity we have on Wikipedia? An absolute joke. I notice they tell the truth about some Latin/Romance place names such as Missolonghi and Santorini (even though officially there is another name for this island). I haven't bothered to check in any great detail, but I wonder if these clowns play the same stupid games with the rest of the non-Greek place names in Greece.

Liberator of Makedonija 07-23-2020 09:08 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183559]LoM, the Austrian military maps were developed over several years. According to the below, they were started in 1869 and finished early in WWI.

[url]https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:3rd_Military_Mapping_Survey_of_Austria-Hungary&from=A[/url]

The person who was quoted earlier indicated that there were "slavophones" (Macedonians) in Kožani as late as the 1960's. I don't know what the ratio was between Macedonians and Vlachs but I don't see why Vlachs would pronounce the name differently to Macedonians unless they were using it from a Greek perspective (ž > z), where it may have eventually become the norm for them. It could also just be that an Austrian official obtained the name from a Vlach who lived among Macedonians and couldn't be bothered pretending to be a Greek in that moment. Note that Vlachs in Kruševo don't pronounce name of the town as Krusevo. I think the same can apply when they pronounce Mečovo (even if they have later developed their own name based on the original Macedonian). There is no rule in their language which would dictate that Vlachs must pronounce it as Metsovo. If they do pronounce it like that, it is because of years of Greek propaganda and education.

Check this link: [url]https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozani[/url]

It is the Romanian language page for Kozani. It suggests that in Vlach (Aromână in Romanian) the name is Cojani. Phonetically, that is the same as Kožani.[/QUOTE]

From that then it is [U]possible[/U] that there was a significant Macedonian-speaking population in Kožani in 1869 at the least

Carlin15 07-23-2020 10:00 AM

Max Vasmer states that the "the first part of the name Metsovo cannot be interpreted from Slavic":
[url]http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/mv/mv_3_1a.htm#203[/url]

Soldier of Macedon 07-23-2020 11:42 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;183565]Max Vasmer states that the "the first part of the name Metsovo cannot be interpreted from Slavic":
[url]http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/mv/mv_3_1a.htm#203[/url][/QUOTE]
Here is the relevant text:
[QUOTE]Μέτσοβον ON im Kr. Joannina (Lex.). Dazu vgl. N. Veďs Jahrbücher IV 362. Der aromunische Name dieses Ortes is Mintšu nach Weigand, Aromunen I 149, II 361, JIRSpr. XXI 62 und nach ihm Philippson, Epiros 186. An slavische Herkunft dachte, ohne Angabe einer Etymologie, schon Hilferding I 288. An den angeführten Stellen versucht Weigand eine altbulg. Grundform *Męčovo »Bärenort« zu konstruieren, deren Berechtigung ich bestreiten muß, denn für skr. mečka, meče »pullus um«, bulg. mečъk, mečka läßt sich ein Nasalvokal m. E. nicht nachweisen. Vgl. EW 185. Der Name Μέτσοβον ist im ersten Teil aus dem Slavischen nicht zu deuten.[/QUOTE]
Carlin, correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that he dismissed a Slavic etymology because the place name in Aromanian/Vlach (Mintšu) means the reconstructed original word for Mečovo must be *M[B]ę[/B]čovo and include a nasal vowel. When he makes a comparison with Serbo-Croatian (mečka, meče) and Bulgarian (mečъk, mečka), there is no nasal vowel, thus he concludes that the root word cannot be from a Slavic language. Let's assume that is the case, I wonder if he went to the extent of including the south-western dialects of the Macedonian language (Kostur and Nestram-Kostenar) in his comparison, given that they are geographically closest to Mečovo. One of the main features that sets the Kostur area apart from other Macedonian dialects is precisely the nasal vowel, which means the standard Macedonian word for tooth (zab) is rendered as zamb, the word for hand (raka) is rendered as ranka, the word for child (čedo) is rendered as čendo, etc.

[url]https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82[/url]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yus[/url]

I am not sure if this has been consistent among all speakers of the Kostur dialect, but it's a distinguishing feature that has been frequently referenced by linguists. That being the case, I wonder if it may be possible that the place name was initially *M[B]ę[/B]čovo / *Menčovo, after which the nasal vowel was dropped to become Mečovo in Macedonian, but retained in Aromanian/Vlach because it was an early borrowing. I note that Vasmer doesn't provide an alternative etymology.

Amphipolis 07-23-2020 11:49 AM

I don't understand anything about the pronunciation symbols either in Metsovo or Kozani.
Kozani is toned in A and Koz- sounds as the English word cause and -ani as Annie.
Metsovo is toned in E, ts sounds like tch in catch.

Soldier of Macedon 07-23-2020 12:02 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183567]I don't understand anything about the pronunciation symbols either in Metsovo or Kozani.
Kozani is toned in A and Koz- sounds as the English word cause and -ani as Annie.
Metsovo is toned in E, ts sounds like tch in catch.[/QUOTE]
Are you referring to stressed syllables? In Macedonian, the stress is placed on the first syllable of both Kožani and Mečovo. In Greek, stress is placed on the second syllable of Kozani. Are you suggesting that the stress is placed on the first syllable when you pronounce Metsovo?

Carlin15 07-23-2020 01:47 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183566]Here is the relevant text:

Carlin, correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that he dismissed a Slavic etymology because the place name in Aromanian/Vlach (Mintšu) means the reconstructed original word for Mečovo must be *M[B]ę[/B]čovo and include a nasal vowel. When he makes a comparison with Serbo-Croatian (mečka, meče) and Bulgarian (mečъk, mečka), there is no nasal vowel, thus he concludes that the root word cannot be from a Slavic language. Let's assume that is the case, I wonder if he went to the extent of including the south-western dialects of the Macedonian language (Kostur and Nestram-Kostenar) in his comparison, given that they are geographically closest to Mečovo. One of the main features that sets the Kostur area apart from other Macedonian dialects is precisely the nasal vowel, which means the standard Macedonian word for tooth (zab) is rendered as zamb, the word for hand (raka) is rendered as ranka, the word for child (čedo) is rendered as čendo, etc.[/QUOTE]

I think it might help if anyone knew German and provide an accurate translation of that entire paragraph. He did reference a nasal vowel, but I'm not an expert in linguistics so the only thing I would say, to quote Noel Malcolm, is that [I]Historical linguistics is a complex science and not, in some of its activities, a very exact one[/I].

Presumably, Metsovo was established long time ago - at a time when nasal vowels were still in use (?). This wikipedia entry states that:

"[B]Nasal vowels were initially retained in most Slavic dialects[/B], but soon underwent further changes. Nasality is preserved in modern Polish, as well as in some peripheral dialects of Slovene (e.g. the Carinthian dialect group) and Bulgarian/Macedonian (e.g. [B]around Thessaloniki and Kastoria[/B])."

Considering that nasal vowels are preserved in the areas of Salonica and Kostur I'd say it wouldn't be out of the question to consider that similar regional dialects were being used in the distant past in nearby areas, that is, in Metsovo/Epirus.

URL:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Slavic_languages#The_nasal_vowels_%C4%99_and_%C7%AB[/url]

I can't say more really other than Metsovo seems to be of Slavonic origin. Although, there might be a possibility that we have here a "non-Slavic prefix" being followed by the -ovo (Slavic) ending.

Carlin15 07-23-2020 02:11 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183547]He lived in the exact opposite (Eastern) side of Macedonia, in Eleutheroupolis/Pravi. What's weird about this guy is that half of his children (including my grandmother) adopted his original surname while the other half adopted the nickname. My own father didn't really know or care much and the story was clarified for me only 3-4 years ago when I met a cousin that bears the Kozanitis name.

It's not uncommon. For instance, the popular author Freddy Germanos has this surname because his grandfather studied in Germany, not because he was German.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, that's interesting.

Would you be able to provide a quick summary as to the ethnic makeup of Eleutheroupolis/Pravi/Pravishta within the last 200 years (or longer)?

Amphipolis 07-23-2020 02:23 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183550]Is this Kostiani in Epirus mentioned in any contemporary record while it existed?

Is the destruction of the village or the migration of the 'trilingual populations' mentioned in any contemporary record around the time it happened?

That contradicts the other sources you've referenced.

Are you suggesting the name changed from Kosdiani to Kozani in 100 years? Were there any Ottoman surveys or census' in the area prior to 1498?[/QUOTE]

This weird local newspaper has an excellent analysis in p.3. ([URL="https://www.tzourlakos.com/files/kastaniani-105.pdf"]https://www.tzourlakos.com/files/kastaniani-105.pdf[/URL]). According to this:

-Lioufis says Kostiani is mentioned in a byzantine lexicon but he is wrong

-Aravantinos (geographer of Epirus in 1800s) mentions a Kostiani (Tepeleni district) and a Kotziani (Premeti district), both having Albanian speakers (so the author believes they're not the ones we're looking for).

-He goes very far mentioning other villages with same or similar names and long stories on how various authors got them wrong.

-By the way this is a newspaper of Kostaniani/Kastaniani near Konitsa, i.e. another village that was created by the same people.

-He also provides an analysis on the surnames of the first Kozani settlers comparing them to the settlers of his village.


==

Carlin15 07-23-2020 02:55 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183538]The episode concerning the destruction of Kostiani, is about a woman called Argyro that believed people of Kostiani murdered her son and hired an army of murderers to destroy the village.

[B]The migrating populations were trilingual, Greek, Albanian and [U]Vlach[/U][/B]. According to Patrinelis, this isn't about Muslim oppression as there were hardly Muslims (around 3%) at that area.[/QUOTE]

Telltale signs of a multilingual Vlach-speaking population.

Liberator of Makedonija 07-23-2020 09:03 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183566] One of the main features that sets the Kostur area apart from other Macedonian dialects is precisely the nasal vowel, which means the standard Macedonian word for tooth (zab) is rendered as zamb, the word for hand (raka) is rendered as ranka, the word for child (čedo) is rendered as čendo, etc.[/QUOTE]

My family speak Kosturski but say [I]zab[/I]. We do say [I]ranka[/I] instead of [I]raka[/I] however; I do not know about [I]čedo/čendo[/I].

Amphipolis 07-24-2020 12:57 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;183570]Thanks, that's interesting.

Would you be able to provide a quick summary as to the ethnic makeup of Eleutheroupolis/Pravi/Pravishta within the last 200 years (or longer)?[/QUOTE]

I believe Greeks, a few Vlachs and Gypsies (Muslims)

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183568]Are you referring to stressed syllables? In Macedonian, the stress is placed on the first syllable of both Kožani and Mečovo. In Greek, stress is placed on the second syllable of Kozani. Are you suggesting that the stress is placed on the first syllable when you pronounce Metsovo?[/QUOTE]

Yes, Metsovo is stressed in E.

Soldier of Macedon 07-24-2020 08:52 AM

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;183576]My family speak Kosturski but say [I]zab[/I]. We do say [I]ranka[/I] instead of [I]raka[/I] however; I do not know about [I]čedo/čendo[/I].[/QUOTE]
As I indicated earlier, I am not sure if this feature has been consistent among all Macedonian-speakers from Kostur nor about the depth of its use. It is, however, noteworthy that your family doesn't apply the nasal vowel in all cases. Perhaps it's a case of dialect levelling, which essentially means that some dialects (or aspects within) have converged with others, leading to a reduction of heterogeneity in a language. That could also be a reason for the possible shift from *Męčovo > Mečovo, provided that it was indeed pronounced with a nasal vowel in the beginning.
[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183581]Yes, Metsovo is stressed in E.[/QUOTE]
I haven't done any thorough research on this, so maybe you can save me the trouble. I notice that trisyllabic place names that end with an H or I often have the stress on the second syllable when pronounced in Greek, such as Κοζάνη, Μαρούσι and Γαλάτσι, but for those that end with an O or an A the stress is often on the first syllable, hence Μέτσοβο, Τέτοβο, Κρούσοβο, Κόσοβο, Φλώρινα, Βέροια, Πρέβεζα, and Λάρισα. Do you know why the stress isn't placed on the first syllable for Τραγάνα and Καβάλα, given that they too end in A?

Carlin15 07-24-2020 10:20 AM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183581]I believe Greeks, a few Vlachs and Gypsies (Muslims)[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Will need to dig into this further. I see some obvious discrepancies in terms of ethnic makeup - which is not uncommon or uncharacteristic.

I read that Eleftheroupoli/Pravi/Pravishta is being mentioned as having a Turkish majority until the population exchange of 1920s. Were the Roma (Gypsies) all Muslims, and therefore "Turks"? What were the [I]true Vlachs[/I] as "percentage" of the Greek Christian population?

Here are the 'known ethnic reports', at least what I was able to find here:
[url]https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%89%D0%B0[/url]

1) Towards the end of the 19th century: "Pravishta has about 600 houses of Turks, Greeks and a few Vlachs."

2) By 1900, according to Kanchov's statistics, there were 1,250 Turks, 1,100 Greek Christians and 1,200 Gypsies living in Pravishta.

3) According to the Secretary of the Bulgarian Exarchate Dimitar Mishev in 1905 there were 1,100 Greeks and 1,200 Gypsies in Pravishta.

4) In the 1920s, its Turkish population emigrated under the agreement on population exchange between Greece and Turkey, and in its place were settled Greek refugees (roughly 745 people). In 1929 the town was renamed to Eleutheropolis.

[Accoring to information found here [url]http://hellenisteukontos.blogspot.com/2010/05/old-accounts-of-kzderbent.html[/url] [I]"Other Anatolian Bulgarians can be found in the village of Nea Iraklica, of Pravishta"[/I].]

Amphipolis 07-24-2020 04:33 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183588]
I haven't done any thorough research on this, so maybe you can save me the trouble. I notice that trisyllabic place names that end with an H or I often have the stress on the second syllable when pronounced in Greek, such as Κοζάνη, Μαρούσι and Γαλάτσι, but for those that end with an O or an A the stress is often on the first syllable, hence Μέτσοβο, Τέτοβο, Κρούσοβο, Κόσοβο, Φλώρινα, Βέροια, Πρέβεζα, and Λάρισα. Do you know why the stress isn't placed on the first syllable for Τραγάνα and Καβάλα, given that they too end in A?[/QUOTE]

No, anything goes actually. There are no rules of this sort.

Risto the Great 07-24-2020 05:04 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183594]No, anything goes actually. There are no rules of this sort.[/QUOTE]
I would say, as a general rule, the opposite of whatever way Macedonians pronounce it.

Carlin15 07-29-2020 12:15 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183581]I believe Greeks, a few Vlachs and Gypsies (Muslims)
[/QUOTE]

The ethnic makeup of Eleutheroupolis/Pravi/Pravishta within the last 100-150 years has been described as having [I]a few Vlachs[/I].

This is no different than, for example ([I]and this is just one example[/I]), how some described the ethnic makeup of Klissura.

Alexandre Synvet ("Les Grecs de l’Empire Ottoman. Etude Statistique et Ethnographique") wrote in 1878 that Klissura is inhabited by [B]7,000 Greeks[/B]. Similarly, Greek statistics from 1905 paint a similar picture to "Pravishta" --> [B]Klissura is a town with [U]3,700 Greeks[/U] and [U]100 Vlachs[/U][/B].

Klissura however, according to tradition, was founded in the 15th century by the merger of five Vlach settlements - Kotori di Yazia, Agru al Kyaku, Chereshi, Kardzha and Gyura. In Ottoman tax registers from 1481, Klissura is listed as a settlement with 76 families - about 500 inhabitants.

Other travelers/sources depict Klissura as a Vlach-speaking town in its entirety (of course, some/many also spoke Greek, belonged to the Patriarchate and had a Greek school in the town). The town is described as a "Wallach town" as late as 1904.

When was Pravishta established and what are the traditions around its founding?

Amphipolis 07-30-2020 03:58 AM

LOL, what's wrong with you? The establishment is obscure as it is located on what was (until recently) the main route from West to East and the district was always inhabited. I've read that the exact location and town was formed during Ottoman Empire, but I'll have to search more.

This was a flourishing industrial town until the Balkan Wars devastated the tobacco market before the two Bulgarian occupations make things even worse. I don't know when my grandmother left the town or if any of her five siblings remained there. It's certain that Kavala has been becoming more and more important while Eleutheroupolis is going down.

Statitsa 07-30-2020 06:07 PM

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;183576]My family speak Kosturski but say [I]zab[/I]. We do say [I]ranka[/I] instead of [I]raka[/I] however; I do not know about [I]čedo/čendo[/I].[/QUOTE]

In Statitsa, (which is located in the northern reaches of the Kostur region) the words chendo, and zamb / zambi are common, however, we utilize the word raka for hand, which could be due to the village's proximity to Lerin.

Carlin15 09-06-2020 10:28 AM

[B]ITALIAN PROVINCES IN GREEK REGIONS[/B]

The Kingdom of Italy (1861-1947) expanded Italian influence and control on some islands of Greece. In the first half of the XX century there were also a few tentatives to create these "italian provinces" in those islands: "Provincia di Corfu", "Provincia di Rodi", "Provincia delle Cicladi" and "Provincia delle Sporadi".

Initially these tentatives were due to some ideals linked to the "Italian Irredentism", like as happened with Corfu and the Ionian islands. [B]Those islands (mainly Corfu, actual Kerkyra) in the beginning of the XIX century had a huge community of venetian speaking inhabitants (the island of Cefalonia -actual Kephalonia- was nearly totally venetian speaking in the XVIII century, according to: Kendrick, Tertius T. C. (1822).[/B] "The Ionian islands: Manners and customs"; p. 106 ), as a consequence of the Republic of Venice "dominions" in this region since the Middle Ages. [B]For example one of the Italian "Risorgimento" fathers was Ugo Foscolo, born in Zante (actual Zakynthos).[/B]

Full article here:
[url]http://researchomnia.blogspot.com/2020/09/italian-provinces-in-greek-regions.html[/url]

Risto the Great 09-06-2020 07:43 PM

Let us not forget San Torino.
(Santorini)

Carlin15 09-07-2020 08:14 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;183790]Let us not forget San Torino.
(Santorini)[/QUOTE]

Interestingly, according to "wikipedia":

[I]Santorini was named by the Latin Empire in the thirteenth century, and is a reference to Saint Irene, from the name of the old cathedral in the village of Perissa – [U]the name Santorini is a contraction of the name Santa Irini[/U].[/I]

URL:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorini[/url]

Also, the Arvanite island of Spetses bears a Venetian/Italian name:

[I]In the 15th century, [U]the Venetians who ruled the island since 1220, named it Spezia ("Spice")[/U] for its position on a major traderoute that dealt in spices. Over time the name was Hellenised to Spetsai (Spetse/Spetses).[/I]

URL:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spetses[/url]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/2mgZMEx.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/DOnikr9.png[/img]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/hnYOoRk.png[/img]

Risto the Great 09-07-2020 11:10 PM

I have seen it as Santorino for years.
Oh well. Still Italian.

Carlin15 09-18-2020 11:08 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;183786][B]ITALIAN PROVINCES IN GREEK REGIONS[/B]

The Kingdom of Italy (1861-1947) expanded Italian influence and control on some islands of Greece. In the first half of the XX century there were also a few tentatives to create these "italian provinces" in those islands: "Provincia di Corfu", "Provincia di Rodi", "Provincia delle Cicladi" and "Provincia delle Sporadi".

Initially these tentatives were due to some ideals linked to the "Italian Irredentism", like as happened with Corfu and the Ionian islands. [B]Those islands (mainly Corfu, actual Kerkyra) in the beginning of the XIX century had a huge community of venetian speaking inhabitants (the island of Cefalonia -actual Kephalonia- was nearly totally venetian speaking in the XVIII century, according to: Kendrick, Tertius T. C. (1822).[/B] "The Ionian islands: Manners and customs"; p. 106 ), as a consequence of the Republic of Venice "dominions" in this region since the Middle Ages. [B]For example one of the Italian "Risorgimento" fathers was Ugo Foscolo, born in Zante (actual Zakynthos).[/B]

Full article here:
[url]http://researchomnia.blogspot.com/2020/09/italian-provinces-in-greek-regions.html[/url][/QUOTE]

[B]ITALIAN CYCLADES[/B]

"Among the civilian population there was a substantial approval of the Italian presence only in the area of ​​the capital of Siro and in the island of Tino, where [B]many boasted distant Venetian roots[/B] and were numerous Catholics for centuries - especially in the town [B]"Ano Syros"[/B], [B]founded in 1200 by the Venetians[/B]."

Carlin15 09-18-2020 11:20 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;183798]I have seen it as Santorino for years.
Oh well. Still Italian.[/QUOTE]

1) "[B]There is a strong Italian admixture in the population of Santorin[/B], although the Italian language has disappeared ; about 600 of the richest and most intelligent part of the population retain the Roman Catholic religion, and lead in the educational and intellectual development of the island."
-- Peace Handbooks: The Balkan States - Page 14 [Great Britain. Foreign Office. Historical Section, ‎George Walter Prothero - [B]1973[/B]]

2) "[B]French and Italian families still form a distinct element of the population of Naxos, Santorin, and Syra[/B]."
-- Greece, Turkey in Europe, Rumania, Servia, Montenegro, Italy, Spain, and Portugal - Page 45 [New York: D. Appleton And Company, Elisée Reclus - [B]1881[/B]]

3)
[img]https://i.imgur.com/uYh9Rd9.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/d6RLcaI.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/Zx5e1rm.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/BMN2jps.png[/img]


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