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Amphipolis 07-22-2020 01:40 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183526]Actually, none of it is answered. There is not a single older source referenced in the text that refers to Kozani as Kosdiani, that mentions the Epirus Kosdiani or Paliokozdani. [/QUOTE]

The first reference to Kozani is in an Ottoman document of 1498-1502, according to which Kozani is the smallest among 36 settlements of the district (kaza) around the town of Servia.

According to info i found in another essay, the Byzantine document mentioned before may be fake (it wasn't about the name anyway).

The original Kostiani or Kostaniani of Epirus is believed to be located North of Premeti (in today's Albania) and had been totally destroyed by the end of that decade (1390s). This village should not be confused with another village of the same name that is also close (inside modern Greece, close to the Albanian borders).

The episode concerning the destruction of Kostiani, is about a woman called Argyro that believed people of Kostiani murdered her son and hired an army of murderers to destroy the village.

The migrating populations were trilingual, Greek, Albanian and Vlach. According to Patrinelis, this isn't about Muslim oppression as there were hardly Muslims (around 3%) at that area.

[URL="https://edymme.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/takiatzhs.pdf"]https://edymme.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/takiatzhs.pdf[/URL]
[URL="http://balkaneana.eu/explore/uploads/pdfs/560d0489592a8.pdf"]http://balkaneana.eu/explore/uploads/pdfs/560d0489592a8.pdf[/URL]

Carlin15 07-22-2020 06:58 PM

The French entry for Kozani [url]https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozani[/url] states as follows:
"Le nom, probablement d'origine slavonne ("Koža") signifie "écorce, cuir" (en particulier "cuir de chčvre")."

Translation: [B]The name, probably of Slavonic origin ("Koža") means "bark, leather" (in particular "goat leather").[/B]

In the second paragraph under section [I]Histoire[/I], it further states:
"Pendant le XVIIe sičcle et le XVIIIe sičcle, les Valaques de la ville entretiennent des relations commerciales suivies avec les pays d'Europe centrale et danubienne, qui apportent ŕ la ville une grande prospérité."

The translation for this is: [B]During the seventeenth century and the eighteenth century, [U]the city's Wallachians[/U] maintained continuous trade relations with the countries of Central and Danubian Europe, which brought the city great prosperity.[/B]

Carlin15 07-22-2020 07:42 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183528]I'm quite familiar with Kozani and the theories about its name. I have worked (but not lived) there for a short period and I used to think that I partly (like 1/8th) come from Kozani as my great grant-father (post-1850s) had a second nickname-surname, [B][U]Kozanitis (i.e. man from Kozani). I only recently learnt that I don’t, and that he was just doing business in Kozani, always travelling there and that’s why they got that surname[/U][/B].[/QUOTE]

Interesting. Are these second "nicknames-surnames" strategies common in modern Greece, based on the scenario you described? That is, your great grant-father was [I]just doing business[/I] in Kozani, and ended up with that second surname? If you don't mind, if he was not from Kozani, did you find out where he was originally from?

[My great-grandfather was traveling and doing a lot of business in Salonica, but never ended up with any second nicknames-surnames -- at least not that I am aware of.]

Carlin15 07-22-2020 08:57 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183536]The "Hellenism" of the Vlachs in Greece. Surreal. Anyway. If you're suggesting that a lot of Vlachs live in Kozani, I would agree. I have met people from there in the past and they have told me the same, even some of their surnames are a dead giveaway. However, I still don't see the connection between Kozani and this apparent Epirus Kosdiani. Have you found any older sources that refer to Kosdiani anywhere?[/QUOTE]

So, I just found this long 'article' - [I][B]Kozani: a stab at etymology[/B][/I]:
[url]http://hellenisteukontos.blogspot.com/2009/09/kozani-stab-at-etymology.html[/url]

I won't copy and paste the entire article but here is the conclusion:

- "... phonologically the shift from Kósdiani to Kozáni does seem a little forced."
- "So the derivation of Kozáni from Kósdiani has problems. But as it turns out, both Kozáni and Kósdiani seem to have a Slavonic origin anyway, so it's a distinction that doesn't matter."

Amphipolis 07-22-2020 09:32 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;183545]Interesting. Are these second "nicknames-surnames" strategies common in modern Greece, based on the scenario you described? That is, your great grant-father was [I]just doing business[/I] in Kozani, and ended up with that second surname? If you don't mind, if he was not from Kozani, did you find out where he was originally from?

[My great-grandfather was traveling and doing a lot of business in Salonica, but never ended up with any second nicknames-surnames -- at least not that I am aware of.][/QUOTE]

He lived in the exact opposite (Eastern) side of Macedonia, in Eleutheroupolis/Pravi. What's weird about this guy is that half of his children (including my grandmother) adopted his original surname while the other half adopted the nickname. My own father didn't really know or care much and the story was clarified for me only 3-4 years ago when I met a cousin that bears the Kozanitis name.

It's not uncommon. For instance, the popular author Freddy Germanos has this surname because his grandfather studied in Germany, not because he was German.

Amphipolis 07-22-2020 09:49 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;183546]So, I just found this long 'article' - [I][B]Kozani: a stab at etymology[/B][/I]:
[url]http://hellenisteukontos.blogspot.com/2009/09/kozani-stab-at-etymology.html[/url]

I won't copy and paste the entire article but here is the conclusion:

- "... phonologically the shift from Kósdiani to Kozáni does seem a little forced."
- "So the derivation of Kozáni from Kósdiani has problems. But as it turns out, both Kozáni and Kósdiani seem to have a Slavonic origin anyway, so it's a distinction that doesn't matter."[/QUOTE]

I believe the key info is this

[B]The first reference to Kozani is in an Ottoman document of 1498-1502, according to which Kozani is the smallest among 36 settlements of the district (kaza) around the town of Servia.[/B]

That means that a 100 years after the arrivals described, the name was established and Kozani was the smallest settlement. I don't know if that means 10 or 30 houses, but it's so insignificant that searching who or how or why formed the name is a difficult task and means very little. The same goes for most towns and villages, their very origins are obscure.

100 years later, at 1618 Kozani (a solely Christian town) has 200 houses and four churches. Another 100 years later, at 1745 it becomes ecclesiastical capital of the district instead of Servia.

Soldier of Macedon 07-22-2020 10:29 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;183546]So, I just found this long 'article' - [I][B]Kozani: a stab at etymology[/B][/I]:
[url]http://hellenisteukontos.blogspot.com/2009/09/kozani-stab-at-etymology.html[/url]

I won't copy and paste the entire article but here is the conclusion:

- "... phonologically the shift from Kósdiani to Kozáni does seem a little forced."
- "So the derivation of Kozáni from Kósdiani has problems. But as it turns out, both Kozáni and Kósdiani seem to have a Slavonic origin anyway, so it's a distinction that doesn't matter."[/QUOTE]
Thanks Carlin. Even the OP has the sense to concede it is Macedonian (despite knowing he may receive backlash from his fellow Greeks).
[QUOTE][Non-Greeks will notice that I speak vaguely of Slavonic, when we all know *which* Slavonic language I'm talking about. But I'm not feeling like getting into needless argy-bargy with those of my readers who don't want to call it "Macedonian"; and since I'm talking about 1400 and not 1950, I may just get away with it...][/QUOTE]
I found the comments section below interesting. One guy says it was already called Kozani when the 'Slavs' got there and another is still pushing the Latin Cosa theory. Leaving that stupidity aside, there are some more sensible comments too.
[QUOTE="Pierre MacKay"]I know Ko'zani from the almost 6 months I spent walking [B]in the region in 1960—1961 and, when I was there, the dwindling number of Slavophones (they were [U]being persuaded that it would be better for them to move further north[/U]) called it Ko'zhani and the Hellenophones called it Ko'zani[/B]. That would seem to me to be one of the best arguments for the accent. W. M. Leake, bless him, gives a stress accent for all the contemporary placenames he records, and in his day it was Ko'zani. Felix de Beaujour might also be helpful. But the best source if you need to use toponyms for linguistic history, is the Austrian General Staff maps created in a resurvey between 1890 and about 1915. The surveyors had no loony chauvinist ideas about what they were doing (at least not in the southern Balkans). They recorded what they heard from what they judged to be the majority population of the location. These maps are the last honest historical record from the late Ottoman period and illustrate the delightful “Macédoine” of settlement that survived until the ethnic cleansing that folllowed the first Balkan War. They can be seen at: lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm

You don't need to know Hungarian to use this beautifully organized site. Simply find the sheet you need on the general outline and click on it. There is a magnifying glass provided so that you can look at the part you want. Kózani is in the upper right quadrant of sheet 39-40 Joannina. [B]Kozani is spelled out with [U]a diacritical over the z[/U], which indicates that the Austrian surveyors saw it as still predominantly slavophone[/B]. Unfortunately, they did not add stress accents.[/QUOTE]
Then there are the comments of this clown below.
[QUOTE="TAK"]......we have to [B]make sure that -an(i) is meaningful in Slavic to justify a Slavic etymology from Kóza (and [U]from what I could find from readings and friends it is not[/U][/B] - on this an expert's opinion would be useful and is still required.[/QUOTE]
Umm, is this guy for real? It doesn't take an expert. Just look at a map with place names from Macedonia, both old and new. Zagoričani, Loznani, Dragožani, Raštani, Peštani, Dabjani, Galičani, Vevčani, Topolčani, Količani, Krivogaštani, Studeničani, Kočani, etc.
[QUOTE]Additionally, from what I know "Kózani" was never generalized among Hellenophones (it is not today and it was not in the early 1990s when I spent a couple of months there as a soldier), and in written Greek sources from the 18th c. onwards the name is exclusively recorded as "Kozáni": you may find examples of such sources in Κοβεντάρειος Βιβλιοθήκη , though the quality is not always great. I restrict myself to two easily readable examples: the first is Megdanis's manuscript that I have already mentioned (the link will take you to p. 6 where Κοζάνη is easily discernible). The second comes from another important local scholar of the period of the Greek Enlightenment, Michail Perdikaris (1766-1828) and it is a manuscript dated in 1805 (the link will take you to the title page where again Κοζάνη is easily discernible). Even if I accepted, for the sake of argument, that in all the period from 18th-20th c. the city was generally called "Kózani" and written "Kozáni", I would still have to explain why this was so, and how, in linguistic terms, "Kózani" became "Kozáni". Does "Kozáni" sound more "Greek" than "Kózani"? I seriously doubt it.[/QUOTE]
Whatever the accent is, the word is not Greek. It is Macedonian, 100%. I think most Macedonians would put the stress on the [B]o[/B] rather than the [B]a[/B], so it would be pronounced K[B]o[/B]žani rather than Kož[B]a[/B]ni. But perhaps some of the brothers from south of the artificial border can advise how it is pronounced in their dialects.

Soldier of Macedon 07-22-2020 11:12 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183538]The original Kostiani or Kostaniani of Epirus is believed to be located North of Premeti (in today's Albania) and had been totally destroyed by the end of that decade (1390s).[/QUOTE]
Is this Kostiani in Epirus mentioned in any contemporary record while it existed?
[QUOTE]The episode concerning the destruction of Kostiani, is about a woman called Argyro that believed people of Kostiani murdered her son and hired an army of murderers to destroy the village. The migrating populations were trilingual, Greek, Albanian and Vlach.[/QUOTE]
Is the destruction of the village or the migration of the 'trilingual populations' mentioned in any contemporary record around the time it happened?
[QUOTE]According to Patrinelis, this isn't about Muslim oppression as there were hardly Muslims (around 3%) at that area.[/QUOTE]
That contradicts the other sources you've referenced.
[QUOTE]The first reference to Kozani is in an Ottoman document of 1498-1502, according to which Kozani is the smallest among 36 settlements of the district (kaza) around the town of Servia. That means that a 100 years after the arrivals described, the name was established and Kozani was the smallest settlement.[/QUOTE]
Are you suggesting the name changed from Kosdiani to Kozani in 100 years? Were there any Ottoman surveys or census' in the area prior to 1498?

Karposh 07-23-2020 04:05 AM

[QUOTE][I]...We have to make sure that [B][U]ani[/U][/B] is meaningful in Slavic to justify a Slavic etymology from Koza (and from what I could find from readings and friends, it is not). On this, an expert's opinion would be useful and is still required.[/I][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183549]
Umm, is this guy for real? It doesn't take an expert. Just look at a map with place names from Macedonia, both old and new. Zagoričani, Loznani, Dragožani, Raštani, Peštani, Dabjani, Galičani, Vevčani, Topolčani, Količani, Krivogaštani, Studeničani, Kočani, etc.[/QUOTE]

A quick Google search for village names in the republic from different regions gave me the following village names ending in [B]ani[/B]. There were many also with the suffix [B]eni[/B] and I though it was worthwhile listing them as well (I have shown them in red). Obviously the list below is not exhaustive ad is only scratching the surface as I couldn't be bothered researching other municipalities but I think we get the picture. You mentioned some from Aegean Macedonia too SOM. I'm sure there are many more village names over there that end with the suffix [B][U]ani[/U][/B].

The idiot making the observation that he can't find any meaningful examples of the suffix's use in "Slavic" and that an expert is needed to verify any findings is ether willfully ignorant or a complete numbskull.

[B]Bitola Region:[/B]
• Bareshani
• Crnichani
• Dragozhani
• Karamani
• Kazhani
• Kukurechani
• Loznani
• Novoselani
• Obershani
• Rashtani
• Sekirani
• Zlokukyani
[COLOR="Red"]• Dobroveni
• Oleveni
• Zhabeni[/COLOR]

[B]Prespa Region:[/B]
• Podmochani
• Krani
• Ezerani
[COLOR="red"]• Drmeni
• Kriveni
• Gorno Dupeni
• Dolno Dupeni[/COLOR]

[B]Ohrid Region[/B]
• Elshani
• Peshtani
• Trojani

[B]Prilep Region[/B]
• Galichani
• Peshtani
• Smolani
• Topolchani
• Veprchani
• Veselchani
• Zagorani

[B]Veles Region[/B]
• Novochani
• Rashtani

[B]Kavadarci Region[/B]
• Brushani
• Koshani

Karposh 07-23-2020 04:45 AM

[QUOTE]The derivation of the name Metsovo—from the words Mitsous and Mesovounon or from the unattested Slav word *Mẹčovo, meaning bear-place—which has been proposed by academics and historians, is not confirmed by linguistic research. On the contrary, there appears to be an etymological relation between the Vlach Minʤu and the Greek Metsovo, the latter being a combination of the stem Mets and the Slavic-ending ovo.[/QUOTE]

Mechovo is apparently an unattested Slavic word for the place name Metsovo according to the genius in the above quote before he/she goes onto clumsily sell the case for a Vlach or Greek derivation for the word. However, the case for a Macedonian origin of the name grows stronger when you consider that, in Macedonian, the diminutive form of Mechka (a bear) is Metsa. Often, when parents speak to their children (especially during story time) a bear is often referred to as “Baba Metsa” that is, Grandma Bear. Regardless of whether the original word was Mechovo and the current term, Metsovo, an apparent bastardisation of the original, both Mechovo and Metsovo work in Macedonian and have exactly the same meaning. The latter being a term of endearment for a bear.


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