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-   -   The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17)

maco2envy 09-05-2018 07:27 AM

Err these are not simply "genes" but a collections of DNA markers which are grouped according to some criteria.

Myheritage's so called "Balkan" group does not sound really Balkan either, given it's really common for Slovenians, Romanians and Slovakians. Also going by your logic the "Balkan" group should probably be "Slovenian", as it is the most prevalent in Slovenians.

Also given that only 19.1% of Turks have an affiliation to this "Greek" group makes it sound like these markers are related to Paleo Balkan people mixed with other people whom settled in the Balkans (Slavs, Vlachs, ect). I'd assume many people in RoM and Albania will also belong to this "Greek" group.

Amphipolis 09-05-2018 07:43 AM

I don’t really know if it would be fair to understand the Balkan marker as ancient Thracian or Thraco-Illyrian. It seems to be Paleo-Balkan and not Greek.

I also suspect “Eastern European” is for Slavic, though something seems to be wrong with Hungary.

19% Greek in Turkey seems correct, as Turkey is a very big country and extends very far to the East. The West-Asian marker seems to describe Anatolian-Persian people which is most of Turkey’s population.

I don’t really know how these markers or genes work but they seem to match with the situation. Example: One of my grandmothers comes from the Aegean coast of Asia Minor, i.e. the borderline of “Greek” and “West Asia” marker. Thus, before getting my results I would bet-expect one of these two or a combination. Let’s wait and see.

maco2envy 09-05-2018 07:56 AM

You should also try GEDmatch with the files you receive from Myheritage for comparison (I think it's for free)

Amphipolis 09-05-2018 08:12 AM

I promise to try everything especially if I don’t like the results.

This is another DNA results video from a different company (didn’t get the name). A beautiful black girl who knows she’s 100% Ethiopian, yet very light-color skinned finds out she’s 2/3 African and 1/3 Arab.

In 8:30-9:30 there’s something interesting. The company provides full (weighted) DNA makeup per country (in % percentages) which is what my-heritage-DNA doesn’t give though it’s mathematically simple.

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a7Z8Q43cfw"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a7Z8Q43cfw[/URL]

Amphipolis 09-06-2018 10:23 AM

I moved this here:

[COLOR="Blue"][I]Balkan is a classification specifically made by MyHeritage to denote South Slavic ancestry, which is a combination of incoming Slavic tribes in the Early Middle Ages, and assimilated Thracians, Illyrians, Dacians etc. Since Albanians are a Paleo-Balkanic people without (major) Slavic ancestry.. they do not score this in great amounts. Matter of fact, I have seen Greeks score more of this, especially northern Greeks score around 30% Balkan, than Albanians.
[/I][/COLOR]

My impression is that Balkan stands for Ancient Thracians (and Illyrians maybe), not for Slavs. A Northern Greek having 30% Balkan seems normal. I’m 50% Northern Greek (Macedonian & Thracian) let’s see how much Balkan I will score.

[COLOR="blue"][I]That's it. No other classification than 'Greek', a fellow Paleo-Balkanic ethnic group, that makes the slightest sense for Albanians to score in their results. It does not matter whether it is South or north, Tosk or Gheg Albanians we are speaking of, they score 'Greek' because that is the only ethnic group in MyHeritage's database genetically closest to them. It has nothing to do with Tosks having some Greek ancestors, Kosovars also score loads of 'Greek' and often even more than actual Greeks.
[/I]
[/COLOR]
That’s an interesting DNA classification problem. My understanding is that Albanians, a separate people, with a separate language and NO brotherly populations SHOULD have some major differences in their DNA. One company cannot separate Greeks from Italians another company seems to achieve this successfully. I knew all Scandinavians are one people but I’m impressed no company can separate German and French people.

[COLOR="blue"][I]My father took a Myheritage DNA test, he is both Kosovar and Greek, and he turned out to be 67.1% 'Greek'. His Greek side is from the Peleponnese and northern Greece, where the people do have quite some foreign admixture thus if he were only Greek he would not score more than 60% Greek, and his Albanian side is obviously from Kosovo, a region with absolutely no historical Greek population. A Gheg (northern) Albanian I met on the internet showed his results and they said he is 94% Greek.
[/I][/COLOR]

These are not the strangest results. Overall Albanian results do not exist yet, so I don’t know what Albanians would expect as normal.

[COLOR="blue"][I]'Greek' includes the descendants of other Paleo-Balkanic peoples with little Slavic ancestry, so does it include many west Anatolian ancient nations such as Carians, Lydians, Lycians, Mysians, Bithynians etc. It is a big mistake for companies to call the classification they make for the Greek people 'Greek' if they do not make seperate additional classifications to represent Albanians and ancient Anatolian ancestry, who otherwise just fall under the ‘Greek’ section. Thus one should take their results with a grain of salt.
[/I][/COLOR]

I believe Slavs are clustered in the “Eastern Europe” category and most of the other people in “West Asia”

tchaiku 09-06-2018 10:38 AM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;176163]I moved this here:

[COLOR="Blue"][I]Balkan is a classification specifically made by MyHeritage to denote South Slavic ancestry, which is a combination of incoming Slavic tribes in the Early Middle Ages, and assimilated Thracians, Illyrians, Dacians etc. Since Albanians are a Paleo-Balkanic people without (major) Slavic ancestry.. they do not score this in great amounts. Matter of fact, I have seen Greeks score more of this, especially northern Greeks score around 30% Balkan, than Albanians.
[/I][/COLOR]

My impression is that Balkan stands for Ancient Thracians (and Illyrians maybe), not for Slavs. A Northern Greek having 30% Balkan seems normal. I’m 50% Northern Greek (Macedonian & Thracian) let’s see how much Balkan I will score.

[COLOR="blue"][I]That's it. No other classification than 'Greek', a fellow Paleo-Balkanic ethnic group, that makes the slightest sense for Albanians to score in their results. It does not matter whether it is South or north, Tosk or Gheg Albanians we are speaking of, they score 'Greek' because that is the only ethnic group in MyHeritage's database genetically closest to them. It has nothing to do with Tosks having some Greek ancestors, Kosovars also score loads of 'Greek' and often even more than actual Greeks.
[/I]
[/COLOR]
That’s an interesting DNA classification problem. My understanding is that Albanians, a separate people, with a separate language and NO brotherly populations SHOULD have some major differences in their DNA. One company cannot separate Greeks from Italians another company seems to achieve this successfully. I knew all Scandinavians are one people but I’m impressed no company can separate German and French people.

[COLOR="blue"][I]My father took a Myheritage DNA test, he is both Kosovar and Greek, and he turned out to be 67.1% 'Greek'. His Greek side is from the Peleponnese and northern Greece, where the people do have quite some foreign admixture thus if he were only Greek he would not score more than 60% Greek, and his Albanian side is obviously from Kosovo, a region with absolutely no historical Greek population. A Gheg (northern) Albanian I met on the internet showed his results and they said he is 94% Greek.
[/I][/COLOR]

These are not the strangest results. Overall Albanian results do not exist yet, so I don’t know what Albanians would expect as normal.

[COLOR="blue"][I]'Greek' includes the descendants of other Paleo-Balkanic peoples with little Slavic ancestry, so does it include many west Anatolian ancient nations such as Carians, Lydians, Lycians, Mysians, Bithynians etc. It is a big mistake for companies to call the classification they make for the Greek people 'Greek' if they do not make seperate additional classifications to represent Albanians and ancient Anatolian ancestry, who otherwise just fall under the ‘Greek’ section. Thus one should take their results with a grain of salt.
[/I][/COLOR]

I believe Slavs are clustered in the “Eastern Europe” category and most of the other people in “West Asia”[/QUOTE]

Look at Albanians and mainland Greeks:

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/pb7Osaw.png[/IMG]

They barely differ. Illyrians, Thracians, Italians and Hellenes did not have a major genetic distance. Similar to north Germans and Dutch.
There is no ''Greek'' gene or ''Thracian'' gene.

Amphipolis 09-07-2018 02:52 AM

Everything seems normal in this diagram, but you have to understand that every dot is simply ONE person and the DNA cmpanies utilize much more info than two indices. Having said that, this diagram DOES separate Germans and French.

maco2envy 09-07-2018 04:53 AM

[QUOTE] DNA companies utilize much more info than two indices[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure the above is Principle Component Analysis. There could be 100's of variables involved which they project into to a 2D plane (like the one above). So you're right that each dot represents one person, but I'm sure there is much more information involved than two variables.

tchaiku 09-07-2018 07:20 AM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;176174]Everything seems normal in this diagram, but you have to understand that every dot is simply ONE person and the DNA cmpanies utilize much more info than two indices. Having said that, this diagram DOES separate Germans and French.[/QUOTE]

Academic PCA works are MUCH more accurate. Other than the fact that it can be influenced by political agenda.

Besides when you said that it is normal for Albanians to score ''Greek'' (not that it bothers me) did you mean Greek literally?

Autosomal DNA cannot tell you are Greek or Italian in percentage. It can tell you that you are GENETICALLY close to Greeks or that you had some cousins in Greece in the past 200-300 years, but it ends there.

This Cypriot guys scores more than 50% Greek:
Gedmatch.com Eurogenes K13 Results:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Cyprian 5.9
2 [B]Lebanese_Muslim [/B][B]9.67[/B]
3 Sephardic_Jewish 10.2
4 Algerian_Jewish 10.35
5 [B]South_Italian 10.71
[/B]6 Tunisian_Jewish 10.73
7 Italian_Jewish 11.3
8 Syrian 11.5
9 Ashkenazi 11.55
10 Libyan_Jewish 11.66
11 East_Sicilian 11.69
12 Central_Greek 12.18
13 Samaritan 13.19
14 Lebanese_Christian 13.75
15 Turkish 14.12
16 Lebanese_Druze 14.52
17 Jordanian 15.08
18 Assyrian 15.64
19 Palestinian 15.78
20 Italian_Abruzzo 16.04

He is closer to Lebanese than Italians.

tchaiku 09-09-2018 03:10 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;173104]Basically what Howell is saying; is that old Greek is no longer spoken like it used to be ... well well neither is today. The Greek language that Romans used was not Doric, Ionic, Aeolic or any other native Hellenic dialect. They used Koine Greek. Which is what this is all about.

The author did not imply that there were no Greek speakers. He, however, leaves an important note that Slavonic is spoken in Epirus and Macedonia. Macedonia is an other story, but weren't Slavs in Epirus hellenized much earlier? Also did Albanians and Vlachs become the next dominant element in the region?[/QUOTE]

*Region not religion. Grammar mistake.

Carlin15 09-13-2018 11:14 PM

- Vlach villages of Karpenissi, lingustically Hellenized (abandoned Vlach)
- Vlach villages of Agrafa, linguistically Hellenized (abandoned Vlach)
- Vlach villages of Gkiona, Lidoriki, Karoutes, Sykia, etc. linguistically Hellenized (abandoned Vlach) starting from the 18th century

[img]https://i.imgur.com/DNxNB5i.jpg[/img]

- Vlach villages of Mount Oeta, Ypati areas linguistically Hellenized (abandoned Vlach) starting from the 18th century
- Vlach villages of Artotina, Mousounitsa, Kostarsa, Paliokatouna, etc. linguistically Hellenized (abandoned Vlach)

[img]https://i.imgur.com/CMlgdIV.jpg[/img]

From the book [I]oi ellinovlachoi (armanoi)[/I] by giorgis exarchos - pages 157 and 158.

Carlin15 09-22-2018 09:02 PM

[B]Histoire de la Grèce moderne, 1828-2012: mythes et réalités - Pages 14 and 15, by Nicolas Bloudanis.[/B]

URL:
[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=9ZhJAQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Histoire+de+la+Gr%C3%A8ce+moderne,+1828-2012:+mythes+et+r%C3%A9alit%C3%A9s&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjK0KSvhdDdAhUk64MKHQ_qALkQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=Histoire%20de%20la%20Gr%C3%A8ce%20moderne%2C%201828-2012%3A%20mythes%20et%20r%C3%A9alit%C3%A9s&f=false[/url]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/AljVm6u.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/5taZvq7.jpg[/img]

[B]Pg. 14 top:[/B]

[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Blue"]The populations of the Greek space thus keep their own traditions, [COLOR="red"][B]a mixture of Christianized Hellenism and cultures and languages specific to [/B][B][U]each ethnic group[/U][/B], mainly [U]Albanian, Vlach and Latin (Italian)[/U][/COLOR]. The whole Christian population, including the Balkan Slavs, is the "Rum millet", the "Roman Nation", in fact "Greek".[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[B]Pg. 14 bottom/Pg. 15 top:[/B]

[COLOR="Blue"][SIZE="4"]The immense majority of the population remains practically illiterate, as indeed in many countries of Europe until the 18th century. The population retains only a vague memory of its past, through folk tales and songs, most of which relate to the Byzantine period, but some also to antiquity, and which are transmitted from generation to generation.

[COLOR="Red"][B]As for the Greek language, it is [U]conserved essentially in the Church[/U]: the popular language is a set of dialects: Vlach, Arvanite or Levantine, according to the regions, in which Greek words are mixed with Romanian, Albanian or Italian[/COLOR].[/B]

At the beginning of the 19th century, there emerges a Greece very different from the image that the West has received since the Renaissance, that of classical Antiquity. The Greeks of 1821 are the result of an important [I]brewing[/I] of populations and a path that is Christian, Byzantine, then Ottoman. They are a long way from Homer, Pericles or Aristotle, even if they feel a nebulous memory and a mythical attachment for this past.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

Liberator of Makedonija 09-22-2018 10:56 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;176530][B]Histoire de la Grèce moderne, 1828-2012: mythes et réalités - Pages 14 and 15, by Nicolas Bloudanis.[/B]

URL:
[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=9ZhJAQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Histoire+de+la+Gr%C3%A8ce+moderne,+1828-2012:+mythes+et+r%C3%A9alit%C3%A9s&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjK0KSvhdDdAhUk64MKHQ_qALkQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=Histoire%20de%20la%20Gr%C3%A8ce%20moderne%2C%201828-2012%3A%20mythes%20et%20r%C3%A9alit%C3%A9s&f=false[/url]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/AljVm6u.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/5taZvq7.jpg[/img]

[B]Pg. 14 top:[/B]

[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Blue"]The populations of the Greek space thus keep their own traditions, [COLOR="red"][B]a mixture of Christianized Hellenism and cultures and languages specific to [/B][B][U]each ethnic group[/U][/B], mainly [U]Albanian, Vlach and Latin (Italian)[/U][/COLOR]. The whole Christian population, including the Balkan Slavs, is the "Rum millet", the "Roman Nation", in fact "Greek".[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[B]Pg. 14 bottom/Pg. 15 top:[/B]

[COLOR="Blue"][SIZE="4"]The immense majority of the population remains practically illiterate, as indeed in many countries of Europe until the 18th century. The population retains only a vague memory of its past, through folk tales and songs, most of which relate to the Byzantine period, but some also to antiquity, and which are transmitted from generation to generation.

[COLOR="Red"][B]As for the Greek language, it is [U]conserved essentially in the Church[/U]: the popular language is a set of dialects: Vlach, Arvanite or Levantine, according to the regions, in which Greek words are mixed with Romanian, Albanian or Italian[/COLOR].[/B]

At the beginning of the 19th century, there emerges a Greece very different from the image that the West has received since the Renaissance, that of classical Antiquity. The Greeks of 1821 are the result of an important [I]brewing[/I] of populations and a path that is Christian, Byzantine, then Ottoman. They are a long way from Homer, Pericles or Aristotle, even if they feel a nebulous memory and a mythical attachment for this past.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

This is really interesting. What is Levantine? Never heard of it.

Carlin15 09-22-2018 11:08 PM

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;176534]This is really interesting. What is Levantine? Never heard of it.[/QUOTE]

I may be mistaken, but I think that [B]Levantine[/B] is a term applied to the Catholic populations of various medieval states. These included the Crusader states, the Latin Empire, the possessions of Venice, the late Byzantium, and later the Ottoman Empire. Nowadays the term is sometimes used to refer to their descendants residing in Turkey and the Middle East.

"Levantines were mostly of Italian (especially Venetian and Genoese), French, or other Euro-Mediterranean origin."

URL:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Church_in_the_Middle_East[/url]

In the French version of the same wikipedia page, I found this:

Nowadays in Turkey, the term "Levantine" refers only to Turkish nationals of Western origin. Their surnames were adapted during the writing reforms (1928). In Istanbul there are still large Levantine families, generally French-speaking: Alyont (Alléon), Baltacı (Baltazzi), Bastiyon (Bastion), Boduyi (Baudouy), Dandriya (D'Andria), Döhoşpiye (De Hochepied), Glavani (Glavany), Jiro (Giraud), Kaporal (Caporal), Kasanova (Casanova), Kastelli (Castelli), Korpi (Corpi), Krepen (Crespin), Kuto (Coûteaux), Lombardi, Marmara, Tomaselli... ... etc.

Liberator of Makedonija 09-23-2018 03:28 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;176535]I may be mistaken, but I think that [B]Levantine[/B] is a term applied to the Catholic populations of various medieval states. These included the Crusader states, the Latin Empire, the possessions of Venice, the late Byzantium, and later the Ottoman Empire. Nowadays the term is sometimes used to refer to their descendants residing in Turkey and the Middle East.

"Levantines were mostly of Italian (especially Venetian and Genoese), French, or other Euro-Mediterranean origin."

URL:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Church_in_the_Middle_East[/url]

In the French version of the same wikipedia page, I found this:

Nowadays in Turkey, the term "Levantine" refers only to Turkish nationals of Western origin. Their surnames were adapted during the writing reforms (1928). In Istanbul there are still large Levantine families, generally French-speaking: Alyont (Alléon), Baltacı (Baltazzi), Bastiyon (Bastion), Boduyi (Baudouy), Dandriya (D'Andria), Döhoşpiye (De Hochepied), Glavani (Glavany), Jiro (Giraud), Kaporal (Caporal), Kasanova (Casanova), Kastelli (Castelli), Korpi (Corpi), Krepen (Crespin), Kuto (Coûteaux), Lombardi, Marmara, Tomaselli... ... etc.[/QUOTE]

Here it is referred to as a language though? It can't be Vlach as it is distinguished from that already

Carlin15 09-23-2018 10:04 AM

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;176536]Here it is referred to as a language though? It can't be Vlach as it is distinguished from that already[/QUOTE]

Levantine = Italian (Venetian and Genoese), French languages/dialects, etc.

tchaiku 09-23-2018 03:42 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167638]Google Translation -

[I][SIZE="3"]Transportation Vlachs in Asia Minor[/SIZE][/I]

[I]Manolis Kontosteliou

One of the [B][U]largest[/U] population movements[/B] happened in Greece was the [B][U]mass migration[/U] of Epirus Vlach settlements[/B] which began the 17th, continued in the 18th century and peaked in the 19th century. Migratory waves initially focused mainly on the Danube and then the Ottoman hinterland.

The main reasons that prompted the residents of Epirus in search of a better life were:

a) The revolutionary movements of 1600 and 1611 with the participation of Christians in Epirus and Thessaly in response to the call of Bishop Dionysios the Philosopher

b) The gradual limitation of the number of villages falling under privileged membership status

c) The [B][U]overpopulation[/U] of mountain communities[/B] and

d) unknown factors like frequent epidemics and natural disasters.

... seek to examine the largely unknown relocation Vlachs in Asia Minor, ..... references and researchers on the topic.[/I][/QUOTE]

I just read about the resettlement of Christians from Epirus in Bithynia in 17th century. Not sure if they were Vlachs ...

Carlin15 09-23-2018 04:40 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;176548]I just read about the resettlement of Christians from Epirus in Bithynia in 17th century. Not sure if they were Vlachs ...[/QUOTE]

Where did you read it?

tchaiku 09-23-2018 05:07 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;176549]Where did you read it?[/QUOTE]

We know that there was movement of Greek populations within the Ottoman Empire; we know for example that Bithynia was resettled from Epirus in the 17th century, and we know that the Tsakonian colony near Erdek/Artaki cannot have been indigenous, and likely dates from the 18th century.
[url]http://hellenisteukontos.opoudjis.net/2017-04-20-why-did-you-think-the-greek-population-disappeared-so-completely-from-anatolia-after-the-ottoman-conquest/[/url]

It is legit, however it is hard to find any additional information in Google.

Carlin15 09-23-2018 05:18 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;176552]We know that there was movement of Greek populations within the Ottoman Empire; we know for example that Bithynia was resettled from Epirus in the 17th century, and we know that the Tsakonian colony near Erdek/Artaki cannot have been indigenous, and likely dates from the 18th century.
[url]http://hellenisteukontos.opoudjis.net/2017-04-20-why-did-you-think-the-greek-population-disappeared-so-completely-from-anatolia-after-the-ottoman-conquest/[/url]

It is legit, however it is hard to find any additional information in Google.[/QUOTE]

No prob, I was just looking for a link (or anything). There were always population movements.

Now that you mention Erdek - what I found interesting with my ancestrydna timeline is that I have 'dots' in this area and Marmara Ereglisi (they appear here for the first time in the 19th century):
[img]https://i.imgur.com/K3VH8G1.jpg[/img]

tchaiku 09-25-2018 06:24 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin;164916][URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/PistikiAkarBoeotia_zpsp9nlbwpj.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/PistikiAkarBoeotia_zpsp9nlbwpj.png[/IMG][/URL]

I will provide a quick summary of the interesting points above, with additional explanations/clarifications, in English:
- "Pistiki" were the last remnants of actual Vlach-speakers (and/or actual Shepherds) in Akarnania. By this time (late 19th century), almost all Vlach-speakers (most of the population) of Akarnania & Aetolia were [B][I]Greeks[/I][/B] and fully (self-)hellenized and abandoned their Vlach language.*
- The same name, "Pistiki", is also found among the [U]Vlachs who emigrated to Asia Minor[/U] (Burad left an interesting short testimony). These "Pistiki" of Asia Minor were fully hellenized. The same case happened with the Bomi - the Vlach-speakers of Boeotia - who fully self-hellenized.
- Sarakatsani most likely of Vlach origins - they used to wear very similar clothing/costumes as the Farsherioti Vlachs.

* - Vlach-speakers basically comprised the bulk and outright majority of Aetolia, Akarnania, and adjacent areas in the Middle Ages; these regions comprised an extensive district which was known in the Middle Ages as Small Wallachia (Μικρή Βλαχία; Mikrí vlahía).

Edited (added additional screenshot, below)

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Pistiki2_zpsyewsvul0.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Pistiki2_zpsyewsvul0.png[/IMG][/URL][/QUOTE]

BUMP .... anyways I still would like to see a primary source saying most people in those region were Vlachs.

Liberator of Makedonija 10-01-2018 07:06 AM

The Arvanitovlachs in Roumeli:

[url]https://www.vlachs.gr/en/the-vlachs-metropolis-and-diaspora/the-arvanitovlachs-in-roumeli-mainland-greece[/url]

Carlin15 10-07-2018 12:11 AM

[COLOR="Blue"][SIZE="3"][B]The Westminster Review - Volumes 61-62 - Pages 191 and 192, [U]Year 1854[/U].[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/o6kp38I.gif[/img]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/bXPfwgV.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/8JfAmA0.jpg[/img]


[img]https://i.imgur.com/GpokHq6.jpg[/img]


[img]https://i.imgur.com/pzbfknX.jpg[/img]

Liberator of Makedonija 10-08-2018 02:43 AM

The Peloponnesian city of Tripoli was known as 'Dobrolitsa' during the Middle Ages, with even Wikipedia suggesting a South Slavic origin.

Carlin15 10-09-2018 08:02 PM

[COLOR="Blue"][B]Tripoli[/B][/COLOR] - For his part, François Pouqueville talks about colonies established by refugees of Slavic and Vlach origin from northern Greece and if Slavo-Vlach etymologies are good Tripolitsa is likely to be one of them.

La ville fut fondée vers le xive siècle. Son nom grec de « Tripolitsa » pourrait peut-être se référer aux trois villes alors abandonnées de Mantinée, Tégée et Pallantion. Au Moyen Âge, elle apparaît sous les noms de « [B]Dobrolica[/B] » signifiant en slave, selon les interprétations, « bon lieu » ou « ville aux chênes », [B]de « [/B][B]Drobolitsa[/B][B] » signifiant en valaque « morcelé, fragmenté, partagé »[/B], de « Tripolizza » pour les génois et les vénitiens au xviie siècle, et de « Tarabolusa » pour les turcs. [B]De son côté, François Pouqueville évoque des colonies établies par des [COLOR="blue"]réfugiés d'origine slave et valaque venus du nord de la Grèce et si les étymologies slavo-valaques sont les bonnes, Tripolitsa pourrait être l'une d'elles[/COLOR][/B].

↑ François Pouqueville, Mémoire sur les colonies valaques établies dans les montagnes de la Grèce depuis Fienne jusque dans la Morée, Ernest Desplaces, Paris 1834, dans Louis Gabriel Michaud.



[img]https://i.imgur.com/2VG33LD.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/BAVRhzl.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/uTwENAV.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/y6vw4Rs.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/MiwV2OC.jpg[/img]

[B][SIZE="2"]John Nandris[/SIZE][/B]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/EEMGgjD.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/GOnVyFd.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/NqjyY4v.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/6r4wS48.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/FWvnQTV.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/LeerpNF.jpg[/img]

Carlin15 10-14-2018 08:46 AM

[B]Agrinio (Greek: Αγρίνιο, Latin: Agrinium) is the [U]largest city of the Aetolia-Acarnania regional unit[/U] of Greece[/B] and its largest municipality, with 106,053 inhabitants. In medieval times and until 1836, the city was known as Vrachori (Βραχώρι).

[img]https://i.imgur.com/30CwVkM.jpg[/img]

URL:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrinio[/url]

[COLOR="Blue"][SIZE="3"]Testimony from Dionysios Pyrros, [U]1834[/U][/SIZE][/COLOR] (first citation below - the second testimony, also from Pyrros, refers to Kolokotronis and many thousands of his VLACH comrades/fighters).
[img]https://i.imgur.com/98IJgDI.jpg[/img]

[B][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="3"]"Agrinio, commonly known as Vrachori ... It is called Vrachori from Vlachohori, because the first settlers were Vlachs, poor people"[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]

URL:
[url]https://www.agrinionews.gr/%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%83%CE%AF%CE%B1%CF%83%CE%B7-%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85-%CE%B2%CE%B9%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%AF%CE%BF%CF%85-%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%80%CF%89%CE%BD%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8C-%CF%84/[/url]

[COLOR="blue"][SIZE="3"][COLOR="Black"]From this link, we read the following relevant points[/COLOR]:
- The city of Agrinio was founded by Vlachs in the beginning of the 13th century
- The previous name of the city (Vrachori) according to the prevailing etymological approach comes from the word Vlachohori
- The Vlach language group is therefore an integral part of Aetolia-Acarnania and especially the city of Agrinio for centuries[/SIZE][/COLOR]

The residents of modern Agrinio and adjacent areas are mostly (Self-) Hellenized descendants of medieval Vlachs who formed the ethnic bulk of Aetolia-Acarnania as a whole. (I also read recently that not that long ago some [B]Souliotes[/B] and Epirotes came from the north and settled in Agrinio.)

Liberator of Makedonija 10-16-2018 12:59 AM

From [I]The Little Book of Big Greek Lies[/I] by Risto Stefov

[IMG]https://vgy.me/ni3uvh.jpg[/IMG]

tchaiku 10-23-2018 03:00 PM

Bernard Randolph - 1643

[SIZE="3"]IT Lyes to the North of Boeotia extending North West and South East about 120 miles; Its Breadth, at the broadest place not above 30. It was taken from the Venetians in the year 1471. The soil is very fertile, affording all sorts of Graine, Wine, and Oyle, as likewise Flesh and Fowl; the Sea abounding with Fish. Since the Turks have had possession of it, [B]most of the Greeks are Fled from the Villages, and Townes; So as the inland places are mostly supplyed by Al∣baneses[/B], who are the Shepherds, and serve the Turks at their Farmes. Formerly here were two Citys, and 500. Townes and Villages; Now there is but one, which can be called a City, which is the ancient Chalcis and now hath the name of the Island; by the Turks it is called Egriboz. It stands on a point of Land, having the Sea two Thirds about it. Betwixt it and the Maine is a small Island, with a strong Castle. From the Maine to the small Island is a bridge built up∣on six good Arches, and thence to the Maine

...

None but Turks and Jews live within the Ca∣stle, where are very spacious houses, and four which deserve the name of Seraglios; One for the Basha, at the right hand coming into the Castle from the Port; One for his Lievetenant or Ki∣ahja; a Third belonging to Ibrahim Aga's Son (of whose Father we will speak anon; ) and the Fourth, to Muzlee Aga; Which are very richly set out with carved work and painting.
[/SIZE]

[url]https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo2/A70955.0001.001/1:5?rgn=div1;view=fulltext[/url]

tchaiku 10-29-2018 05:25 AM

[IMG]https://i.redd.it/bsjan6l4gj711.png[/IMG]

Carlin15 11-01-2018 06:57 PM

[B]Vasili: The Arvanite language was used by the people in Greece[/B]

URLs:
[url]http://360grade.al/148796/vasili-gjuha-arvanite-perdorej-ne-popull-ne-greqi/[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEHIqpGtoNo[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYS60LKiWlg[/url]

Vasili: [COLOR="Blue"]"For many years, Arvanite language was accepted as the language of the people. So, the Arvanite language was the language of the people, while the official language was Hellenic. The most elite area of Nafplio is called "Arvanitja". It is the first capital."[/COLOR]

Vasili: [COLOR="blue"]"The Arvanites have been an extraordinary factor. They were 90% of the uprising against the Ottomans in 1921."[/COLOR]

TrueMacedonian 11-02-2018 04:27 PM

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;177233]From [I]The Little Book of Big Greek Lies[/I] by Risto Stefov

[IMG]https://vgy.me/ni3uvh.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

This clown took all of my research on Maknews and MTO and wrote this book and he ends up giving credit to someone else. I shouldn’t be bothered by this but charlatans in the Macedonian community are a dime a dozen.

Liberator of Makedonija 11-02-2018 08:28 PM

[QUOTE=TrueMacedonian;177602]This clown took all of my research on Maknews and MTO and wrote this book and he ends up giving credit to someone else. I shouldn’t be bothered by this but charlatans in the Macedonian community are a dime a dozen.[/QUOTE]

He credits SoM I believe.

Amphipolis 11-03-2018 03:53 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;177587][B]Vasili: The Arvanite language was used by the people in Greece[/B]

URLs:
[url]http://360grade.al/148796/vasili-gjuha-arvanite-perdorej-ne-popull-ne-greqi/[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEHIqpGtoNo[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYS60LKiWlg[/url]

Vasili: [COLOR="Blue"]"For many years, Arvanite language was accepted as the language of the people. So, the Arvanite language was the language of the people, while the official language was Hellenic. The most elite area of Nafplio is called "Arvanitja". It is the first capital."[/COLOR]

Vasili: [COLOR="blue"]"The Arvanites have been an extraordinary factor. They were 90% of the uprising against the Ottomans in 1921."[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

1. It would be interesting to know what Laertis Vasileiou is saying as he is a Greek-Albanian (meaning half-Greek, half-Albanian).

2. Nope. Arvanite was not the “language of the people", it was the language of the Arvanites. Arvanitia is not an elite segment of Nauplio, it is a beach where hundreds of Albanians were framed and killed by Turks, that’s how it got its’ name.

3. Nope, Arvanites were not an extraordinary factor (or… 90%) of Greek revolution. The extended article on Greek Revolution from English Wikipedia doesn’t even mention them once, while Albanian Wikipedia doesn’t even host an article on Greek Revolution.

[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence[/URL]

TrueMacedonian 11-03-2018 06:47 AM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;177618]1. It would be interesting to know what Laertis Vasileiou is saying as he is a Greek-Albanian (meaning half-Greek, half-Albanian).

2. Nope. Arvanite was not the “language of the people", it was the language of the Arvanites. Arvanitia is not an elite segment of Nauplio, it is a beach where hundreds of Albanians were framed and killed by Turks, that’s how it got its’ name.

3. Nope, Arvanites were not an extraordinary factor (or… 90%) of Greek revolution. The extended article on Greek Revolution from English Wikipedia doesn’t even mention them once, while Albanian Wikipedia doesn’t even host an article on Greek Revolution.

[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence[/URL][/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5473[/url]

Liberator of Makedonija 11-03-2018 09:06 AM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;177618]1. It would be interesting to know what Laertis Vasileiou is saying as he is a Greek-Albanian (meaning half-Greek, half-Albanian).

2. Nope. Arvanite was not the “language of the people", it was the language of the Arvanites. Arvanitia is not an elite segment of Nauplio, it is a beach where hundreds of Albanians were framed and killed by Turks, that’s how it got its’ name.

3. Nope, Arvanites were not an extraordinary factor (or… 90%) of Greek revolution. The extended article on Greek Revolution from English Wikipedia doesn’t even mention them once, while Albanian Wikipedia doesn’t even host an article on Greek Revolution.

[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence[/URL][/QUOTE]


Can you provided any sources to discredit Carlin's claims though?

Carlin15 11-03-2018 11:04 AM

[img]https://i.imgur.com/fYlbGn9.jpg[/img]

Carlin15 11-03-2018 11:10 AM

[B]"Alien settlers consisting of Romans": identity and built environment in the Julio-Claudian foundations of Epirus in the century after Actium[/B], in R. Sweetman (ed) 2011.
Roman Colonies in the First Century of their Foundation (Oxford): 101-116

Will Bowden

URL:
[url]http://www.academia.edu/11751288/_Alien_settlers_consisting_of_Romans_identity_and_built_environment_in_the_Julio-Claudian_foundations_of_Epirus_in_the_century_after_Actium_in_R._Sweetman_ed_2011._Roman_Colonies_in_the_First_Century_of_their_Foundation_Oxford_101-116[/url]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/8iidnIh.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/5cvOCnk.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/vYI0C0n.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/bI8CqoG.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/L9v1Xb9.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/isGXvTn.jpg[/img]

Amphipolis 11-03-2018 01:17 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;177622][img]https://i.imgur.com/fYlbGn9.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]

Don't know what this is exactly, but of the six notables mentioned in lines 3 & 4 as Arvanites, only one was, Botsaris (a Souliote actually). There are probably discussions for each one of them in the forum (you can use the search engine).

You can also check it in Albanian wikipedia.

Carlin15 11-11-2018 09:52 PM

- Today, [B]Cyclades islands[/B] such as Syros and Tinos have some entirely [B]Catholic villages and parishes[/B], while many Greeks from the Cyclades have surnames with a [B]distinctly Italo-Venetian origin[/B] e.g. Venieris, Ragousis, Dellaportas, Damigos etc.

URL:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_the_Archipelago[/url]

- [B]Albanians[/B], mostly on the Argosaronic gulf islands, the northeastern Aegean and [B]on some Cycladic islands[/B] (e.g. Andros, Ios, Kea and Kythnos),
- [B]Catholics, mostly on the Cyclads[/B], with their most significant communities being on Syros, Tinos, Naxos, Thera, Milos, Paros and Sifnos.

URL:
[url]http://www.ehw.gr/asiaminor/Forms/fLemmaBody.aspx?lemmaid=10496[/url]

Carlin15 11-11-2018 10:18 PM

[img]https://i.imgur.com/OWgKKVL.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/WZI9lvv.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/3VQDUrN.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/dyw6jn7.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/tLcf3UW.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/NbHi5Qf.jpg[/img]

Traditional “Vlach Wedding” in Thebes. Men and women in traditional costumes parade at the central streets of Thebes, re-enacting the custom of the “Vlach wedding” - newsreel [B]1962[/B]:
[url]https://www.europeana.eu/portal/en/record/09204/EUS_9B202B4A690F47CC940E9A86C56A814A.html[/url]

Greek Vlachs dancing during the Vlach wedding ritual at Thebes city, Boeotia, Greece.
[url]https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-greek-vlachs-dancing-during-the-vlach-wedding-ritual-at-thebes-city-88534535.html[/url]

In 1830, after liberation of Greece, Vlachs transfered their rituals to Thebes (birthplace of Bacchus, similar to Dionysian symposiums & worships taking place at that time) in an attempt to move from a infertile soil to a fresh pasture for their livestock. The cult combined with Christianity, in The Vlach Wedding revival, a bucolic wedding ritual parody, with a disguised bride, impersonated by a man, called the 'Vlach' thus making a mockery of the wedding custom itself.


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